Editorial NMA takes a good look at Fallout 3

[Vault Dweller]

Tags: Bethesda Softworks; Fallout 3

<a href=http://www.nma-fallout.com>NMA</a> has posted an <a href=http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=37054>article</a>, dealing with popular Fallout 3 questions like "why is someone making this crap?"
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<blockquote><b>Who is this for?</b>
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This question remains, and it's an important one. Working on the basis of what we know (and don't forget the disclaimer at the beginning of this article), Bethesda has ignored calls from the traditional fanbase to keep combat and gameplay style, it has ignored calls from the less-traditional fanbase to keep the same visual style or dialogue method, it isn’t going to please any FPS fans with a system designed to discourage twitch play, it seems to be consciously side-stepping every chance to bring something unique or non-generic to the RPG market. So, asides from people who will buy it to spite NMA users, who are they making this for? Luckily, we have an answer:
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Pete Hines: “As Fallout fans and guys who make roleplaying games and have for over a decade, we have pretty good ideas about what we want to do and how to do it.” (ref)
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Todd Howard: “<u>I worry about meeting our own expectations</u>. (...) That being said, I'm sure there's a vocal minority that wants to kill us for even attempting to do it. But they wanted to kill Peter Jackson too, so you have to ignore that and just do something great that you'd love to play.” (ref)
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Ah, they're making it for themselves. Good market there, I hear.</blockquote>I think Todd was talking about his financial expectations.
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[psycojester]

I'm sure there's a vocal minority that wants to kill us for even attempting to do it.

Well its nice that he at least acknowledges the fact that he should die.

 

[Brother None]

Note that I ignored pointing out blatant stupidities; fat man gun, BoS in the west, exploding nukular cars, drinking out of toilets.

Why?

Well, VD already covered that topic well enough in his article, and I think topics like that are more based on the perspective "I loved Fallout, what's in Fallout 3 for me," while this one is flipping around the question to "Fallout 3, what's in it for me?"

A generic post-apocalyptic RTwP Action RPG? Fun, but only sounds like a mild upgrade of The Fall to me.

 

[Black]

I'm sure there's a vocal minority that wants to kill us for even attempting to do it.

Well its nice that he at least acknowledges the fact that he should die.

It's funny because the actual vocal MAJORITY wants Fallout rpg, not Fallout fps...

 

[Vidder]

Bethesda has ignored calls from the traditional fanbase to keep combat and gameplay style, it has ignored calls from the less-traditional fanbase to keep the same visual style or dialogue method, it isn’t going to please any FPS fans with a system designed to discourage twitch play, it seems to be consciously side-stepping every chance to bring something unique or non-generic to the RPG market.

how is not going with old/overused ideas from:
- traditional fanbase
- less-traditional fanbase
- fps fans

NOT unique??

I think they indeed have some new (interesting?) ideas, but 1. will it be fun/interesting? (we´ll see) and 2. will it please the old fans / you? (of course not..)

 

[Brother None]

I think they indeed have some new (interesting?) ideas,

I'm sorry, but apart from the lengthy tutorial/childbirth character generation, this doesn't actually have any new ideas. That's exactly the point.

 

[Section8]

It's funny because the actual vocal MAJORITY wants Fallout rpg, not Fallout fps...

I skimmed a thread over on the ESF the other day where Brother None was saying "The majority of vocal fans want a true Fallout" and some dipshit Bethesduh cumslave was trying to take him to task by saying - "but the vocal fans are a tiny minority, and don't represent the fanbase as a whole who clearly want more Oblivion!"

At this point, the good brother politely asked this chap to prove his assertion of an invisible/silent multitude opposing the opinion of the vocal majority. The predictable reply was "no you disprove it". Because obviously, when the majority of the visible market registers their disapproval, the safest assumption is that everyone else in the demographic is so overjoyed, they can't register any kind of response.

The moral to the story? Marketing sense isn't transferred sexually.

 

[Vidder]

I think they indeed have some new (interesting?) ideas,

I'm sorry, but apart from the lengthy tutorial/childbirth character generation, this doesn't actually have any new ideas. That's exactly the point.

Lets see how this combat system looks in the end.

Also this setting and first person is nothing you see too often.

 

[Brother None]

Lets see how this combat system looks in the end.

Also this setting and first person is nothing you see too often.

It looks like RTwP. None of the "innovations" described are actually innovative, they're comparable to FEAR. I'm not a gamer much, but...Gears of War?

Also, this setting? Retro-50s? BioShock. Post-apocalypse? S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

Yawn. Been there, done that.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Who are they making this for? 3 groups of people:

1. People who never played Fallout because they are too young, but they want to be PART OF THE LEGACY of this cult classic, or so said them their favourite pc mag

2. People who played FO, but all they remember from the setting and gameplay is "postapoc lawl with humor awsum". They are uncritical towards FO 3 and will accept anything, as long as it has wasteland and FO 3 on the box

3. Oblivion fans waiting for teh next awesome full price oblivion mod.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

Most oblivion fans probably never bought Morrowind and most morrowind fans probably didn't play daggerfall. It's in their nature to be clueless.


I bet NMA looking at FO3 is like having some guy bend over and touch his ankles while Kharn gets a magnify glass and peers into the guys anus.

 

[sheek]

I like the hatred of NMA that's spreading over game communities. It's wholesome even though Bethesda profits from it. Hopefully after that backlash there'll be a backlash against the Toddler-ites and a stable, rational equilibrium point will be reached.

 

[Brother None]

I like the hatred of NMA that's spreading over game communities. It's wholesome even though Bethesda profits from it. Hopefully after that backlash there'll be a backlash against the Toddler-ites and a stable, rational equilibrium point will be reached.

Yeah. The level of obsession a community like SomethingAwful has with what really only amounts to a fan site isn't exactly my idea of "wholesome" there. If you think being obsessed with a bunch of guys on a forum is wholesome, fine by me, but jeesh

 

[sheek]

Actually I looked and couldn't find the specific thread about NMA. I just found one about Toddler's Q&A... read the first few pages. Of course they are a bunch of fucking losers, and actually I've always preferred NMA to that community. They're annoying, their website plain sucks and these idiots even pay for the 'privelege' of posting their (uninformed) opinions.

I personally agree with NMA's line on F3 in general, I think you're way too rabid about it and that's caused a backlash. Not that it's your fault or that you must repent, but with articles about 'glittering gems of hatred' you did ask for it.

 

[aries202]

I really don't think they are making this game, FO3, for themselves. I really do think they believe they can earn a fortune (again) by appealing to the casual gamer that likes to play post apoc games like Gears of War, Prey or Resistance: Fall of Man.

I'm pretty sure the PR & Markering Deparment said: 'hey' let's make FO3 like Gears of War etc. - then we'd sell a ton of units and make a lot of money'. Since the people who enjoyed playing Gears or Resistance: fall of man will enjoy playing our new & improved Fallout 3.

Over at Duck and Cover (as aries100) I have commented on how sad Todd seems to look in the video interviews. It is almost as if he doesn't have the permission to make the FO3 he wants to make, i.e. a game much closer to the original Fallout games. But noes - the PR & Marketing Deparment wanted a game that could be sold to the casual gamer.

They all should read the book 'the long tail' which tells a convincing story on how the future market belong to the niche products --- niche products just like the original Fallout games...

Or they should get their hand on a book called The Second Cycle by a very visionary Danish former CEO of OTICON ( a hearing aid company). The book details. among other stuff, how Lars Kolind turned a very bleek future for OTICON around by listening to its customers. And it details that Oticon's customers weren't (nor were they ever) the hearing aid stores, but the people buying the hearing aids.

Likewise, Bethsoft's customer's are not Todd and Pete or the development team or even the EB or Gamestop stores. Bethsoft's customers are the people that buy their games. And in this case, for FO3, they actually need the support (imo) from NMA and Duck&Cover. The logic is this: every person knows about 6-12 persons (this is a scientific fact, I believe). You can do the math yourselves....

If Bethsoft can get the support from the fansites, then FO3 will sell will. This means listening to what the fans want, and catering to their needs etc. Sadly, - Bethesda has chosen a different approach -

As for the hate over at NMA, well, I don't know about that. I've been one of the NMA'er that has tried to reason & stuff, and also said that 'we don't know anything yet'. But, let me tell you this:

I feel deeply betrayed by Bethesda, I feel angry, frustrated and on the verge of giving up when I see what Bethesda actually has done, or plan to do, with (our) beloved Fallout franchise. It is not that the game plays in full 3D, nor that it doesn't have the iso/tb system, nor even the stupid stupid combat hybrid system (realtime with pause? + merged with tb combat??). It is because Bethsesda didn't even get the setting right. Bethesda's Todd H. (and the devs at Bethesda) apparently feels that the setting in Fallout ONLY consists of 'dark and violent humour'.

While this certainly is true some of the time, or maybe even not that much, it is not what Fallout is all about. Nor is Fallout a horror-esque survival game, where you shoot/pop supermutants everywhere with the aid of a militarylike organisation called Brotherhood of Steel.
(you see that this game is somewhat similar to Gears of War - instead of shooting Locusts, you're shooting Super Mutants....and in both cases you get aid from the military...).

The quests are pretty un-inspired, too. I mean, blowing up a town with a nuke 200 year after nuclear war seems to be more in the humorous style of an 8 year old! - not a grown man of thirtysomething. (hopefully, we will have an option to turn down that quest...or to shoot mr. Burke, but the jury is still out on that, I think...).

And while we're at that age thing: 99% of all 19-year old young men and women would be happy
about their father disappering - since it means that they could do anything they liked. Why, then, do the game, FO3, have a main quest that, as far we know, goes against anything we know about the human psychology....

I still stand by my initial comment about FO'3 comment being a (bad) derivative of the story in Star Wars 3-4, and a (bad) rehash (of sorts) of the Story in Baldur's Gate 1. (remember Gorion --- you needed to find your father --- remember that your mother died at birth in SW3---- and you needed to find your father (if you identified with Luke) in SW 4-6...

I'd rather play STALKER....

 

[Claw]

I'm sure there's a vocal minority that wants to kill us for even attempting to do it. But they wanted to kill Peter Jackson too

Really? I don't know the hardcore Tolkien fandom. I never wanted Jackson to die, he's just a little overrated. Everyone and his dog seemed to be on his knees and ready to suck his dick when the Trilogy was released.

One impression I got however was that the large Bethesda fandom seems to be very silent on Fallout 3. There is a little bit of the usual cocksucking on the FO3 forum, but I feared it would be dominated by Beth fanboys sining the praise of Todd. That gives me hope that Bethout may become a well-deserved failure.

 

[sheek]

Except that forum populations don't mean shit. I doubt 10% of potential customers even visit them, not to mention read any real discussions.

 

[Fez]

You'd be surprised how much of an effect they can have through word of mouth. If they didn't then people wouldn't spend fortunes on researching and influencing people through "viral" marketing and similar.

 

[aries202]

As for Beth's fandom etc. ---- It is really, really hard for a company to gain the public's trust, let alone the trust of its fans, again, when they have lied to both the public and the fans about their latest game, Oblivion.

People tend not to like being lied to ---- and Bethesda now an image in the public eye, or at least one amogst the fans - that it is lying ----
company that will do anything to make a quick buck.

Such a representation or image can be death to a company, especially if they continue down this line...

which

apparently, for some reason, they do...

 

[Bradylama]

Note that I ignored pointing out blatant stupidities; fat man gun, BoS in the west, exploding nukular cars, drinking out of toilets.

You probably could've gotten more rape threats from SA that way.

Apparently a nuclear car being as volatile as the Pinto is perfectly plausible when you're an idiot.

 

[franc kaos]

Peter Jackson caused me to finally read Lord of the Rings. Oblivion would not have made me think, 'Wow, I love RPGs.'.

Tod is an incoherent ex geek who's gotten too used to a nice lifestyle.

I think Aries202 is right to a certain extent, Tod may have wanted to recreate a more faithful Fallout, but the studio heads wanted a safer bet... he could have stuck to his guns instead of rehashing Oblivion.

Also, is it my imagination, or is Pete Hines conspicuous by his absence? Is Tod being hung out to dry dependent on the success of this game?

On an unrelated note, I loved Max Paynes bullet time (slow time also recharged slowly during normal time but it worked fine in practice). If they get VAT working right it could be a great choice for both realtime and TB fans (assuming you get enough AP's to get involved in a decent exchange).

Unfortunately, Bethesda haven't recently shown any skills in storytelling, dialogue or choice based missions, and while they have brought new people in, they seem to be mostly of the art / animator / programmer type.

 

[The Runnin' Dude]

Whats with the negatitity against FO3. It could be good. Lets give it a chance.

 

[Bradylama]

If it's as delicious as ambrosia on its release, I don't think anybody would particularly mind. For now, though, it's not looking so hot. "Giving it a chance" sort of requires something that people actually want to try. Maybe later on people will be more open to it, but as it stands the signs are pointing to no.

 

[Rei]

I think age is somewhat irrelivant. If you're born a dumbfuck you'll always be a dumbfuck.

People are crazy about Halo you know. People of all ages. Halo

 

[HanoverF]

It might be great, but it won't be Fallout, so why not call it Elder Scrolls: Post Apocalyptica, or something like the Ultima series did for it's non Britannia games. Is Vaultboy really that big of a draw?