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(Non-)Linearity in CRPG Stories again (RE: DG interview)

Zomg

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Alright, after thinking about this, I tend to think the Plot and Story definitions posited here are both very removed from our common uses and not quite what is suggested by the Wiki literary definition. While I think they're meaningful within this discussion as technical terms I don't think they ought to spread outside of this particular thread. I will explain why if asked, but I don't want to disrupt the internal discussion here with a semantic digression.
 

MrBrown

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Vault Dweller said:
Finally had time to digest, so let's have a discussion:

MrBrown said:
I think the interviewer and Mr. Gaider here are talking about different things, while using the same words to describe them.
Disagree.

When I said DG was talking about Plot non-Linearity, I didn't mean that exclusively. He might be thinking of Story non-Linearity as well, but it was obvious from his response that when he talks about "actual branches in the story", he's talking about at least Plot non-Linearity.

My assumption that the interviewer was thinking of Fallout is only based on that it was a codex interview. I might be totally wrong on that. :P


Vault Dweller said:
A linear story within a non-linear plot is like a charted route in sea. Once it's been charted (a story is set and defined), who cares if the sea can support many different routes - we are following one at the moment. If story events are linear, I don't see how they can affect plot events. For example, let's say you've reached story event A, the story is linear, so B will follow A. That means that any changes of plot events are insignificant, and no matter what flexibility of plot events the game may offer, story event B will still follow story event A.

A game with a linear Story and a non-linear Plot is very possible. Again, think of the end narrative in Fallout regarding the various locations you visited. Those were all non-linear of the exclusion/inclusion type, however none of them had any effect on the Story, simply because they came after the Story had ended (the PC couldn't do anything anymore). A game with a linear Story and a non-linear Plot could for instance be if you were forced to play the locations in FO in a specific order (disregarding the mutant-related stuff for this example).


Vault Dweller said:
A non-linear story within a linear plot doesn't make much sense, as all outcomes and min-decisions would lead to the same plot events. For example, in BG2 both decisions to join the Thieves or the Vampires, or to have Yoshimo with you or not, lead to being captured when you reach the island.

So, true non-linearity is a flexible non-linear plot, within which a number of stories could be created.

(BG1 and BG2 are indeed both games with lots of non-Linearity in the Story, but next to none at all for the Plot.)

However, this is a question of opinion, really.

In both your examples, it seems you're saying that unless the non-Linear Plot Events lead to non-Linear Story Events, then they're not worth having (this is something I missed in my original post, that is, all kinds of Events can limit all other Events). However this would, for instance, mean that the non-linearity in the ending narrative in FO isn't worth having, as it doesn't affect the Story anymore.
 

MrBrown

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Zomg said:
Alright, after thinking about this, I tend to think the Plot and Story definitions posited here are both very removed from our common uses and not quite what is suggested by the Wiki literary definition.

Yep, but I'm not trying to do a literary analysis here afterall. Plot is probably the most confusing terms, since in literacy it assumed to contain the whole of the story... What I'm calling Plot here is really just all the Non-diegetic inserts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-diegetic_insert). However, because CRPGs are a multimedia, you can't consider them with just literary terms, IMHO.


Zomg said:
While I think they're meaningful within this discussion as technical terms I don't think they ought to spread outside of this particular thread. I will explain why if asked, but I don't want to disrupt the internal discussion here with a semantic digression.

The worth of any analysis is defined by it's usefulness... Currently, what I wrote isn't very useful to anyone, but hopefully I'll be able to revise it eventually to something that is.
 

Azarkon

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Messages
2,989
I applaud your attempt to map the literary concepts of Plot and Narrative (or Story, as you call it) onto game terms. I think I know what you're trying to do: there's a big difference between games where you are allowed to visit, say, planets or cities or places in any order (Story Non-Linearity) while still following a Linear Plot (since your decisions make no noticeable difference), and games where your decisions in even a linear sequence of Story Events can affect the Plot (since you can be forced to go to place A, then B, then C, while making dialogue decisions X, Y, and Z that diverge only at the end), thus invoking Non-Linearity of Plot. I hope you will excuse me for using your ideas as a launch point for my own take on your theories - the following consist of my attempt at clarifying what you briefly outlined:

Non-Linearity of Story, in this case, means Non-Linearity in the Narrative, in the observation of the Plot. The player, in this case, is the observer - and he may choose to freely dance about the Plot (by invoking Story Actions), going to and fro between different parts of the Plot (not to be confused with different *paths* of a non-linear plot) based on where/when he is and what he chooses to observe. He can even *do* different things at these different locations (again, Story Actions), whether it be fight monsters, buy items, or perform tasks and quests - but the fact remains that these actions do not change the overall Plot. They are, simply put, inconsequential: locally contained. This form of non-linearity can be clearly present without Non-Linearity of Plot, and it is in some sense the strategy followed by current MMORPGs, where each player's Story is different but the Plot of the world is always pre-defined (plausibility is feigned at through monsters respawning and instances resetting). But notice here that you *must* define Plot as the set of all non-player Events; it cannot be defined as player Events without being intertwined with the Non-Linear Story. In other words, if the Plot of the game *is* the player wandering around the world doing as he pleases, then really the Story and the Plot are one, because the player, through making his own Story, also then makes his own Plot. This little fact is important, because it's not always easy to distinguish between the two as it is in the case of RPGs with a predefined plot that the player can observe anyway he wants. Take Daggerfall, for example: which is the Story, and which is the Plot? And even if you *can* distinguish them, can you really make the argument, in the case of sandbox games, that Plot has any significance? The point of some RPGs is simply the Story, nothing more.

But of course, you can account for that by renaming Plot to World in these cases, and in fact that's probably the more encompassing term: for whereas underlying every novel there is always a Plot, underlying every game there is always a World.

Non-Linearity of Plot, however, is a more difficult concept to grasp. As you say, you're going to ignore randomness, by which I'm assuming you're limiting your discussion of Plot Non-Linearity to cases where players' decisions in the Story affect the Plot through Contact Points (thus, cases of plot non-linearity where King A dies if /random 0-1 turns out a 0 and lives if it turns out a 1 are ignored). A Non-Linear Plot, then, can be defined as a Plot where the existence and order of non-player-controlled Events are undetermined - until player decisions determine them. So far, so good. Now let's talk about Contact Points. IMO, while you describe as Story Contact Points and Plot Contact Points are really better served by Passive Contact Points and Decision Points. Why? Because you've already said that Contact Points are places where the Story and the Plot connect - which then makes it confusing to say that there's a Story Contact Point and a Plot Contact Point except to state the difference between two kinds of contact points: namely, one that is an imposition of the Story on the Plot, the other of which is an imposition of the Plot on the Story.

Now then, a Passive Contact Point is a point where a Plot Event imposes itself on the Story. Imagine a cutscene central to the Plot, but which you cannot effect in anyway, and which leads to some changes in the number of Story Events you have available to you (ie by opening up a new dialogue with a NPC, starting a new quest, allowing access to a new area, etc.) This cutscene would be a Passive Contact Point, because it changes the availability of Story Events but you have no control over the Plot through it. Note that this includes the vast majority of trigger events because while it's your Story Action that takes you to a trigger (ie you decide to go to the city Baldur's Gate), *nothing* changes fundamentally in the Plot - you're merely opening up new ways of observing. Hence the passive attribute. (OTOH, if you define Plot to be World, then the Passive Contact Point is moot because all Story Events are automatically Passive Contact Points with the World; but I won't go there).

A Decision Point, then, would be a point where a Story Event imposes itself on the Plot. This definition seems obvious - all it is is a point where your choice within the Story Event affects the next Event in the Plot (ie a dialogue tree where you can decide either to Save the Princess or Sell Her to the Evil Wizard, which then results in different Plot Events, one for each choice). Of course, in reality it's much more complicated, because here we're really abstracting away the layered hierarchy of plot structure. In essence, there is usually not *one* Plot (which MrBrown defines as the set of all non-player-controlled events, which is really too general as it assumes a singular ordering of Events, which is most definitely not true of many RPGs, which have multiple Plots running alongside each other, some of which have nothing to do with each other but are still Non-Linear in and of themselves).

Bringing it all together, we might ask ourselves: what are the possible combinations of Linearity with Non-Linearity in Plot and Story? What are their benefits and drawbacks, and how do they relate to our idea of Contact Points?

First, before we even attempt to answer that question, we must make something clear: linearity and non-linearity are one sliding scale on which the two concepts are the extremes. While there are definitely games that fall close to the extremities, very few games are absolutely linear or non-linear if we consider the set of all microscopic events. This is because ALL games are interactive, and the level of interactivity depends on how fine we reduce or abstact the events. A movie or book (except those choose-your-own-story novels), in some sense, are the quintessential Linear "games" while the ultimate Non-Linear game, as far as we can reach via human means, is the Imagination itself. Nevertheless, it maybe useful to think about what combinations of linear and non-linear plots / stories may mean.

1. Linear Story, Linear Plot

Most action RPGs and single-player FPS's fall within this category. The order in which you visit areas, which really constitutes your Story Events, are preordained. Even the items you use and the levels you are at are, in some sense, preordained and pre-balanced so as to ensure that you can defeat a boss by the time you get there. Here, you neither have the ability to change the Plot nor the ability to view the Plot differently through modifying the order or existence of your Story Events (except the microscopic decisions at the combatant's level).

The drawbacks are obvious, but there also benefits. For one thing, since Linearity is the attribute of cinema, having a Linear Story / Plot makes it alot easier for the game to be cinematic, since the developer can expect exactly where the player will go and how he will get there. Resources are thus efficiently applied with respect to player hours since the developers can spend their time ensuring that ALL the hours of the game are polished, since they're all important to the playthrough. It's also much easier to tell a story in the traditional sense through this combination, since novels are also Linear.

As a matter of fact, in the quintessential Linear Story, Linear Plot situation, there are no Decision Points because every Event is a Passive Contact Point which gives access to exactly one extra Story Event - the next one in the Plot. The Plot is therefore the Story and vice versa. What you see is what you get.

2. Linear Story, Non-Linear Plot

What is a linear story with a non-linear plot? A pick-your-own-adventure book. The order of Story Events are preordained: you must read the book from front to back, but you are allowed to make decisions that change what happens at particular points. Ah, you ask, but how is that different from a non-linear story? The answer is simple: because the availability of Decision Points do not change the fact that each Event is essentially a Passive Contact Point that gives access to exactly one extra Story Event - the next one in the Plot you've chosen. Therefore, while you choose what happens in the Plot, you do *not* choose whether to entertain those choices. You *must* choose, in other words, at certain junction points, and you *cannot* choose to skip that choice but continue to play.

Games like these are a-plenty (any game that leads you by the nose through a series of choices, really), though they usually have a bit of Story Non-Linearity in the beginning. Take, for example, the last stretches of KOTOR, after you've visited all the planets. Here, you clearly can choose between the Light Side and Dark Side endings. But can you choose to not make that choice? Can you choose to make that choice sooner than when you did by skipping one of the planets? No - because the Story Events at that point are limited. You *must* have gone through each planet before you are given that choice, and you cannot go back to a planet once you're past a certain point.

The benefits and drawbacks of this approach are as before: less work but less freedom, too. To be honest, though, I would say that this approach is far more preferrable than the next one for CRPGs, simply because plausibility can be maintained in a Linear Story with a Non-Linear Plot much more easily than can be maintained in a Non-Linear Story with a Linear Plot. For one thing, you can *see* yourself being forced into a series of actions that result in choices, and the best games justify that forcing through some device (ie in Half-Life 2 it's simple survival, in KOTOR it's a matter of urgency, in BG2 Irenicus has your soul, etc.)

3. Non-Linear Story, Linear Plot

What's much harder to believe in is the fact that you are simply incapable of making a difference whatever it is that you do. Non-Linear story with a Linear Plot simply means that you can go anywhere you want and do whatever it is that you want, but that whatever you do has no effect on the Plot itself. Of course, the *smart* designers limit your range of choices so that you can't do anything that will clearly change the plot (ie kill a key NPC, visit a plot development area before the plot gets there, etc.) But ultimately the idea is that you are given relative freedom as to observing the unfolding of the Plot from different perspectives (though sometimes even this is too hard and the developers just give you some small amount of time to wander around aimlessly before pigeonholing you into a Linear Story, Linear Plot situation ala ToB), but no ability to change the unfolding of said Plot.

In short, there are no Decision Points, though there maybe many Passive Contact Points (depending on how much the devs want to keep you on track with the Plot) and many Story Event choices. Go anywhere, see anything, but don't touch - or rather, touch, but don't break.

The drawbacks are, as stated, plausibility and freedom - these kinds of games have a tendency to fall into the category of Morrowind - games where the world isn't convincing enough for you to be engaged in the Story, largely due to the fact that your actions are mostly inconsequential with respect to an absent or neglected Plot. Of course, these games can also be done right, in which case the Story becomes the Plot and it doesn't matter, then, because you'd have achieved #4. Most MMORPGs clearly fall into this category also, and the trick is the same: making the player believe that his achievements in-game (his Story Events) are significant in and of themselves, regardless of the Plot that he has no effect on.

4. Non-Linear Story, Non-Linear Plot

Presumably the holy grail of non-linear games combine non-linearity of story with non-linearity of plot. Personally, I tend to think of this combination as economically infeasible because once you're able to attain both non-linearity of story and non-linearity of plot, more often than not you'll also be able to split the different paths of the plot into separate games and sell them that way for more $$$. At least, that's the theoretical extreme, the utopian non-linear RPG where you can go anywhere you want starting at level 1 and make an impact on the workings of the world wherever you go: the world simulator.

And really, this is what it's all about if you look down the path far enough: the world simulator is the ultimate non-linear RPG, the fully interactive sandbox where anything and everything is possible - yet in such lush detail, in such dramatic flourish, that the Plot, far from being absent as in #3, is present in every Event. In fact, there can't be one Plot in such a world - there must be many... Potentially infinite plots that intersect and intermix, generating a great tapestry of stories each of which are in and of themselves enough to be the Plot of a game or book or film. That is the final goal.

But on the way there, we need to be more realistic: what is a practical non-linear story combined with a non-linear plot? Well, we can't have infinite stories, so we have to limit the number of threads in the Plot. Then we have to ensure that you can approach these threads from a relatively open pool of Story Events - in other words, there should be many Contact Points, both Passive and Decision, and they shouldn't be *forced* into the game but actually make sense (ie, if I decided to visit the Dark Lord at level 1, my encounter with him in the Plot shouldn't be as if I was visiting him as the level 999 Uber Hero of Zork).

This is where, of course, many people get *really* upset about the exponential growth factor. With Non-Linear Plots, we merely had a branching factor of about 2-3, depending on number of decisions. Thus, if we kept the number of game-changing decisions down to 3-4, Non-Linear Plots are manageable. But consider a Non-Linear Plot in conjunction with a Non-Linear Story: you'd have to, in the worst case, multiply by a factorial factor (since order matters), which would get impossibly big very, very fast. Thus, this approach here really doesn't work if we want to be complete. Instead, as in trying to solve NP Hard problems in computer science, we'll need tricks.

And Fallout, really, is one such trick. Instead of making one humongous Plot that you can visit and change at various points, Fallout has *local* Plots that are *locally* changed (and presented to you locally at the end of the game). It then makes the *locals* available in a Non-Linear fashion, which constitutes its Non-Linear Story. Thus, the local Plots are kept simple - they branch once, or not at all, while the locals are kept largely independent, so that they don't affect each other on a combinatorial basis. What this translates to is a tree-like structure, instead of a web-like one, and that cuts down the resources required by an exponential amount.

This fact, however, presents to us a dilemma: Fallout was able to keep its complexity to a minimum through having Plots that were not long, continuous epics. But what if we wanted a continous plot, such as the one in the BG series? What if we wanted the novel-like stories of the FF series? Unfortunately, what you sacrifice for Non-Linearity will always be the complexity of the individual Plot. The more complicated a Plot is, the more involved the characters, the more important the order of events, the harder it is to make Non-Linear. And that's common sense - but now we have an inkling as to why it's common sense.

For this to make sense, I need to introduce one more distinction, namely that between the Passive Contact Point and the Plot Checkpoint. For you see, I kept mentioning Passive Contact Points that limit the pool of Story Events to exactly one when really, these can be organized into a separate category altogether. What the Plot Checkpoint is is an Event that furthers the Plot, that develops it in some way, but *without* contributing to the Non-Linearity of either Story or Plot. That is, such an Event does not add, cannot change, and can only remove possible Events from the pool of Story and Plot. There are a *ton* of these in modern RPGs of every kind. Every cutscene, every time a NPC speaks non-canned dialogue, every FMV - all Plot Checkpoints. These Plot Checkpoints combine together in a linear fashion, one after another, to create the complexity of a Plot: its nuances and subtleties and dramas. They are the essence of what makes a Plot complicated and involved. But they're undeniably linear and interdependent on the order of operations, because you largely can't have Plot-development cutscenes or dialogue or FMV without knowing what to expect already. Thus, if we were to make each of these Plot Checkpoints either a Decision Point or even a Passive Contact Point that allows for multitudes of different actions, we would instantly be faced with an exponential explosion of choices.

Thus ends this contemplation: non-linearity is a great concept, but its application comes with great sacrifices to the level of involvement and detail you can give to a particular Plot.
 

Sycandre

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Dec 28, 2005
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France
MrBrown said:
Sycandre said:
I'll try to use your definitions to describe what is, to me, the best compromise between player freedom/replayability (non-linearity), and GM/dev lazyness(linearity):

A globaly linear plot, that is a linear serie a contact points. Each of them being an important event during which the player choice may result in a few different stories (that's small suites of events)... also linears.

The structure is globally linear, because the plot is linear, and also because each sub story follow a linear model.... which save some neurones and time for the one who build the stories.

I assume you mean something like this:
Code:
   |
   |
A--B--A
   |
   |
   B--A--A--A
   |
   |
A--B
   |

Where both A and B would be Story Events, but the As wouldn't be Contact Points/Limiting Events to any Plot Events between the Bs, and Bs would have PC choice that would lead to different As who might (without PC choice) lead to new As.

This is certaintly a viable design. One thing to remember though, that for the As not to be Limiting Events to the Plot Events between the Bs, the As must be designed so that the guy who designs the Plot Events doesn't even have to think about the As. Otherwise, the As will become Limiting Events.

But, this made me realize some contradictions in my original post, I'll have to revise...

Not exactly:
Code:
    __A__        __A__
    I          I     I          I
B_I__A__B__I__A__B___B...
    I__A__I     I__A__I

That is, you have alternative A stories (linear series of events) between non Alternative B connecting events. The B events are the core of the plot, the main events. But you can go from one to the other following some alternative pathes. A B event may be a kidnapping. The following A stories represent how the PC may react to this: ignore it or investigate it for example. The structure of each A serie of events resulting in bringing the PC back to the next connecting event: the kidnapped NPC is rescued, and PC learn who may be behind the kidnapping... then again, some possible alternative A pathes...

That allow to keep a coherent and clear serie of key events (B), with coherent series of A events between...but still giving the player some key choices to change the overall story.
 

Mefi

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I'm drunk Azarkon but I don't buy your conclusion.

If a RPG chooses to go down the route of a massive world which is contiguous and has no seperation then your conclusion holds true (eg something like Morrowind).

However, this does not hold true for every RPG. Most RPGs skimp over most of the game world. You travel between selected points of interest or else have an almost totally randomly generated world to travel in. You touched on how Fallout approached things. And that is the solution to the problem. Self-contained units within the game world. Break it down into smaller pieces where the PC's interaction will have a finite number of conclusions for the 'conclusion' of each 'piece'.

If the developer cuts its cloth according to its resources there is no issue and your conclusion does not stand.

PS. 1/2 bottle of vodka + 1/4 bottle whisky = if this is wrong, I don't care because at least I can still type ;)
 

MrBrown

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Hello Azarkon. Your post is too long to quote, so I'll just respond in general.

First of all, I was only thinking of the topic in relevance to single-player CRPGs. I haven't even thought how it might apply to multiplayer CRPGs, MMORPGs or any other kind of media.

You're confusing alot of definitions of terms in your post. First, you're confusing different interpretations of the word "plot" here. The one I used specifially states that the PC cannot be part of the Plot, because the Plot is by definition everything that is part of the narrative that doesn't involve the PC. There is no RPG where the Story and Plot are the same, even in parts, but there can be RPGs where there is very little Plot. While I haven't played Daggerfall, it sounds to me like it is such a game (and probably Morrowind as well).

The more common sense definition of plot, that you are confusing my definition with, is that plot is the story _and_ the non-diegetic inserts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-diegetic_insert). I'll probably revert to that definition in my revision, since it simply makes more sense to people.

You were right in saying that all Events can affect all other Events. This is something I'll need to consider for my revision.

Also, you are confusing my definitions of Story Events, Plot Events and Contact Points with PC choice. They are not the same. A Story Event is something where it would plausible for the PC to have an effect on the Event. A Plot Event is something where it is not plausible for the PC to have an effect on the Event. This is true regardless of whether the PC (and thus the player) is actually given a choice by the game. A Story to Plot (StP) Contact Point is something where it is plausible for a Story Event to affect a Plot Event, so the Plot Event must be made so that it is plausible with the Story Event (or it will lose plausibility). The important thing here is that this is again true regardless of PC choice; if the game gives no PC choice, then both the Story Event and the following Plot Event are linear. However, if there is to be non-Linearity caused by the PC in the Plot Event, then the PC choice must be present in this Story Event. In other words, StP Contact Points are the only place where Plot non-Linearity by PC choice is possible, but that doesn't mean that this is possible in all StP Contact Points.

What you defined as a Plot Checkpoint is what I called a Contact Point, except that I allow them to also cause non-linearity, but not necessarily.


Because of these confusions, all your examples are incorrect if you assume you're using the terms as defined.

That doesn't mean your points are invalid, but you're really only talking about points where there is PC decision and points where there are not, and how these affect the story and plot as a whole.


I think my definitions of the terms are confusing... I'll have to change them to more common sense ones.
 

Section8

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Mixing of definitions aside, there are some excellent approaches to defining non-linearity. I'm pretty much at a loss for anything significant to contribute, so I'll happily watch this all unfold.

One thing I will contribute:

This fact, however, presents to us a dilemma: Fallout was able to keep its complexity to a minimum through having Plots that were not long, continuous epics. But what if we wanted a continous plot, such as the one in the BG series? What if we wanted the novel-like stories of the FF series? Unfortunately, what you sacrifice for Non-Linearity will always be the complexity of the individual Plot. The more complicated a Plot is, the more involved the characters, the more important the order of events, the harder it is to make Non-Linear. And that's common sense - but now we have an inkling as to why it's common sense.

I personally don't see any point to aspiring to a continuous non-linear plot. It's basically disregarding the strengths and weaknesses of the medium on a whim. Non-linear movies are little more than a rare experiment, because they're shoehorning a concept into a medium that doesn't fully support it, and the reward is minimal.

Does it matter that events in each Fallout locale were compartmentalised from each other? From the protagonist's perspective a complex narrative is still delivered, and it is after all, their tale, and the world serves as a backdrop. And a dynamic one at that. I can't remember how many binary resolutions there are, but I think it's somewhere in the vicinity of 2^7 "distinct" endings possible when considering the game as a whole.

This is why Fallout shines - it allows the player to craft their own epic. I don't see why that is in any way inferior to a continuous non-linear plot, especially given the limitations and resource requirements.

A book of short stories and a novel are certainly different beasts, but any judgment on which is superior would be largely down to personal preference. Likewise for the concept of a continuous plot vs localised plots.

But, aside from that opinion, which doesn't really have any bearing on the theoretical analysis you presented, I'm content to see where further refinements of these discussions lead.

Truly excellent work from both the major contributors, even if you're slightly at odds on definitions.
 

Zomg

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Messages
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MrBrown said:
The more common sense definition of plot, that you are confusing my definition with, is that plot is the story _and_ the non-diegetic inserts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-diegetic_insert). I'll probably revert to that definition in my revision, since it simply makes more sense to people.

I'm not even sure that's exactly right. I think we're talking more about Plot being the events where the PC simply isn't present (there are events you might call Plot that are presented to the player, like a "villain cutscene" where we're shown stuff as the player that the PC couldn't be present at). Non-diegetic does not mean simply, uh, "non-presented" to the audience, it means extra-narrative. For example, think of a comedy movie where a couple is having sex, and we're shown images of rockets taking off, trains going through tunnels, etc. Those are non-diegetic, they're present only as visual metaphors. Things that are never explicitly shown to the PC can still be diegetic - say, if there's an "offstage" war between two cities while the PC is in a dungeon, that's still completely diegetic, part of the story-world.

That's just what I get from the link, though, I haven't read Aristotle or Plato on the subject.

I think "onstage" and "offstage" might be decent colloquial bases for your definitions, with the caveat that "onstage" is on the player-character's stage, not merely the player's.
 

MrBrown

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Section8 said:
Truly excellent work from both the major contributors, even if you're slightly at odds on definitions.

Just to clarify, the question isn't about what is the "correct" definition, but which are a) not contradictory internally and b) explain as much as possible from the subject (CRPGs in this case).

Changing the definitions of terms always results in contradictions, even while each of them might feel like a natural definition of the term. This is why most arguments (on the internet or RL) are pretty pointless, because people rarely define the terms on common grounds.

For instance, Azarkon says:
The Plot is therefore the Story and vice versa.
Which is contradictory to my definitions of the terms. Azarkon is drawing on my terms to make his argument, but then changes the definition midway. This always leads to incoherent arguments. That's not to say Azarkon doesn't have a point, but he needs to stick to one definition - either mine, or make his own. If he makes his own, then he can't really draw from my arguments or conclusions, because then it might become incoherent.

Anyway, not blaming anyone, I just don't want this thread to develop into another one where people argue about stuff without defining the terms.
 

MrBrown

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Zomg said:
I'm not even sure that's exactly right. I think we're talking more about Plot being the events where the PC simply isn't present (there are events you might call Plot that are presented to the player, like a "villain cutscene" where we're shown stuff as the player that the PC couldn't be present at). Non-diegetic does not mean simply, uh, "non-presented" to the audience, it means extra-narrative. For example, think of a comedy movie where a couple is having sex, and we're shown images of rockets taking off, trains going through tunnels, etc. Those are non-diegetic, they're present only as visual metaphors. Things that are never explicitly shown to the PC can still be diegetic - say, if there's an "offstage" war between two cities while the PC is in a dungeon, that's still completely diegetic, part of the story-world.

That's just what I get from the link, though, I haven't read Aristotle or Plato on the subject.

I think "onstage" and "offstage" might be decent colloquial bases for your definitions, with the caveat that "onstage" is on the player-character's stage, not merely the player's.

Interesting. Yes, I think the difference between the player and the player character is important here.

When I was talking about Plot Events originally, I explicitly meant events where the PC isn't present, but the player obviously is as a viewer at least (because if the player isn't, then it's not a part of the game). So non-diegetic isn't a good term either...


Another important part in the player/PC difference is that there can be both Plot and Story non-Linearity caused by player choice that is not PC choice. For instance, the ToEE vignettes, or apparently the variant introduction chapters in the upcoming Dragon Age. This is something I've purposefully disregarded so far.
 

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I wanted to contribute this:
I was thinking about this as I played some Starcraft. Now, I have a tendency (more like a habit I formed early on) of seeing skirmish modes as mini-campaigns. I would compose really basic narratives in my head as I played to follow the action, (e.g. Command Center A along with some construction vehicles was sent to exploit some moon...the first squad of marines to be produced on the unexploited new moon scouted out and made contact with space aliens which resulted in a firefight; the marines prevailed, etc.) Skirmish Mode in strategy games are non-linear in both plot and story. I don't have to do ANYTHING in skirmish mode. The plot is effectively controlled by the AI (which doesn't do everything the same way every game. I've had the AI build up a massive army of zealots and rush me, sometimes they build a smaller army and tech up to dragoons, etc.), while the story is controlled by moi.

Also, this made me start thinking about a game that would seem like a combination of C&C Renegades Multiplayer and WoW Battlegrounds. Imagine a game which had a Starcraft skirmish game running in the background. The AI controls everything, while your character is a "hero" unit (or whatever else you like). You can affect the outcomes of battles and such with your own actions. Non-linear in both story and plot. Of course, this particular game would be kinda boring, akin to those Team Hero Defense maps for Warcraft 3, but it's just an illustration.

In any case, AI would be a good solution to non-linear plot. e.g. You kill Gizmo, his highest level henchmen takes his place unless you bribe him or scare him off or whatever. This would require some foresight, you would have to give the PC many, many different ways to interact with NPCs. I do think this Radiant AI might be a step in that direction. A small one, to be sure, but one nontheless. After all, one game there might be a dog, the next the dog might've been set on fire, a (miniscule) change in plot.

This sort of dynamic might also explain how I could play the same map (mp_depot on Return to Castle Wolfenstein server Happy Penguin) for almost a year and not get bored for that long. Other players are the ultimate non-linear factor. That game rocked so much.
 

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Just to clarify, the question isn't about what is the "correct" definition, but which are a) not contradictory internally and b) explain as much as possible from the subject (CRPGs in this case).

Changing the definitions of terms always results in contradictions, even while each of them might feel like a natural definition of the term. This is why most arguments (on the internet or RL) are pretty pointless, because people rarely define the terms on common grounds.

Yep, I understand that, I just wanted to make the point that when isolated from your definitions, Azarkon's summary almost stands on it's own merits, despite a blurring of definition.

Something that hasn't been touched on, and probably shouldn't for the time being, given that there's already a whole lot to get people's head around, is the idea of procedural plot and story elements, which further decrease the resource requirement of a developer (with relation to the culmination) at the cost of being "artificially intelligent" design. But let's iignore that for the time being...
 

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MrBrown said:
Vault Dweller said:
A linear story within a non-linear plot is like a charted route in sea. Once it's been charted (a story is set and defined), who cares if the sea can support many different routes - we are following one at the moment.
A game with a linear Story and a non-linear Plot is very possible.
See my post. Didn't say it isn't. My point was that non-linearity of a plot doesn't really matter if the story is linear.

Again, think of the end narrative in Fallout regarding the various locations you visited. Those were all non-linear of the exclusion/inclusion type, however none of them had any effect on the Story, simply because they came after the Story had ended...
End narratives are merely conclusions of plot/story, game equivalents of "they lived happily ever after". I don't think they are relevant to this discussion, unless I misunderstood something, of course.

A game with a linear Story and a non-linear Plot could for instance be if you were forced to play the locations in FO in a specific order (disregarding the mutant-related stuff for this example).
I realize that. See above.

In both your examples, it seems you're saying that unless the non-Linear Plot Events lead to non-Linear Story Events, then they're not worth having...
Something like that. "Not worth having" is too strong, but unless non-linear plot events lead to non-linear story events, a game couldn't be considered non-linear.

However this would, for instance, mean that the non-linearity in the ending narrative in FO isn't worth having, as it doesn't affect the Story anymore.
See my thought on end narratives above. Even a game with a linear plot and a linear story may have end narratives depending on some minor decisions here and there or a choice made minutes before the credits start rolling. (KOTOR, Deus Ex, BG ToB, etc)
 

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Vault Dweller said:
End narratives are merely conclusions of plot/story, game equivalents of "they lived happily ever after". I don't think they are relevant to this discussion, unless I misunderstood something, of course.

Well, in my view of the thing, everything related to the narrative is either part of the Plot or the Story. The ones that include the PC somehow are part of the Story, the ones that don't are part of the Plot. So, in my view, end narratives and start narratives are both Plot Events.


Vault Dweller said:
Something like that. "Not worth having" is too strong, but unless non-linear plot events lead to non-linear story events, a game couldn't be considered non-linear.

See my thought on end narratives above. Even a game with a linear plot and a linear story may have end narratives depending on some minor decisions here and there or a choice made minutes before the credits start rolling. (KOTOR, Deus Ex, BG ToB, etc)

Planescape: Torment is another example that had a huge amount of possible choices right at the end. These basically fall in the same category as Fallout's location end narratives, as both are made to be very independent from the rest of the game (to have very few Contact Points or Limiting Events, using my terms).

I would consider such games at least somewhat non-Linear, though certainly not majorly so (unless they had something else too). Linear and non-Linear games are pretty abstract definitions anyway; while it's easy to say whether a specific Event is Linear or not, defining a whole game as either is pretty much a "is the glass half full or half empty?" -dilemma.
 

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MrBrown said:
Vault Dweller said:
End narratives are merely conclusions of plot/story, game equivalents of "they lived happily ever after". I don't think they are relevant to this discussion, unless I misunderstood something, of course.

Well, in my view of the thing, everything related to the narrative is either part of the Plot or the Story. The ones that include the PC somehow are part of the Story, the ones that don't are part of the Plot. So, in my view, end narratives and start narratives are both Plot Events.
Well, you can take even the most linear game and add non-linear narratives in the end based on some minor irrelevant choices. So, while technically end narratives are part of a story, practically, from the position of the player, they aren't. I don't think that having those narratives in BG ToB made the game non-linear in any way.

Planescape: Torment is another example that had a huge amount of possible choices right at the end. These basically fall in the same category as Fallout's location end narratives, as both are made to be very independent from the rest of the game (to have very few Contact Points or Limiting Events, using my terms).
Choices in the end and end narratives hardly fall in the same category. At least, in my opinion. End narratives represent consequences, and choices are, well, choices, something that's still in your hands and could be shaped in different ways.

Linear and non-Linear games are pretty abstract definitions anyway; while it's easy to say whether a specific Event is Linear or not, defining a whole game as either is pretty much a "is the glass half full or half empty?" -dilemma.
Disagree again. Fallout was non-linear. BG wasn't. ToEE was non-linear. Bloodlines wasn't. It's easy to tell if you follow a fixed path or not.
 

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Vault Dweller said:
Choices in the end and end narratives hardly fall in the same category. At least, in my opinion. End narratives represent consequences, and choices are, well, choices, something that's still in your hands and could be shaped in different ways.

I didn't mean all end narratives as such, but rather ones that might or might not be there depending on the player's actions during the game. I was still assuming the Fallout example, as Fallout had those location related scenes in the end that showed how what you had done affected the future of a location.


Vault Dweller said:
Disagree again. Fallout was non-linear. BG wasn't. ToEE was non-linear. Bloodlines wasn't. It's easy to tell if you follow a fixed path or not.

Wov, then we have a big disagreement. I haven't played Bloodlines though, so I can't comment on that.

By my definitions, Fallout had non-Linearity in the following ways: your ability to choose which location to go to in which order and in several cases how to dothe quests in those locations (Story non-Linearity), and the end narratives that changed depending on your choices in those locations (Plot non-Linearity). Most of the stuff that had to do with Mutants were very Linear.

BG on the other hand, had the ability to choose which location to go to in which order and in some cases how to do the quests in those locations (Story non-Linearity, though not to the extent of FOs). Most of the stuff that had to do with the Iron Crisis and Bhaalspawn stuff was very Linear.

Neither of these games had much of the kind non-Linearity that you said mattered the most (where a Story Event affects a Plot Event that again affects a Story Event).

BTW, assuming I'm remembering the details correctly, the above are not about opinion; they're facts.

What is about opinion is whether the facts make you call a whole game linear or non-linear. This is because for that you need a comparison point.
 

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Great discussion!

I have so many things to say and I don't know where to start, so I hope it gets coherent as it goes. Azarkon has said lots of interesting things, and his definition of Decision Point and Passive Contact Point are valid and clear, so I'll use them.

I understand the confusion in the terms use by MrBrown and Azarkon, and I'll help bring light on this. Somehow, it all makes sense to me. Basically, MrBrown associates the ability for the PC to make decisions with a non-linear Story (by going to chosen places and creating Story Events). In a Brown non-linear Story, there would be Decision Points. This is simple. Now, for Azarkon, the definition encompasses consequences. By definition, any Decision Point must have an impact on something exterior to the PC. Therefore, Decision Points are linked to a non-linear Plot. If the Plot is linear, there can't be decisions, because there can't be impact. In a non-linear Story with a linear Plot, the only Contact Points are Passive, ie. they are not done by PC decisions, but are rather forced on him. That's why MrBrown's definition, while simple at first sight, is flawed. I leave you with this, as you guys have much brain re-routing to do.:lol:

If there is more explaining needed, I'll oblige. Anyways, I'll try not to use the concept of non-linearity in the rest of the post, and opt instead for Decision Point and Passive Contact Point, which we can all agree on. Plot and Story are the same definition for both, so they don't matter. (See MrBrown's definition, it's clear).

I'll side with VD on what he says, even if he is talking in reverse.:roll:
Basically, what we want as role-players are Decision Points. A game where there is only Passive Contact Points holds no value for role-playing, because the events that happen are not a consequence of role-playing.
Role-Playing = Decision Points.
While that does not mean that Passive Contact Points are of no value at all, it only means that they do not provide opportunity for role-playing, though they may better the game and factor in making the game world more dynamic/alive.

Well, not using non-linearity is not gonna work, so I'll throw in definitions I feel make sense and are simple.

Plot: Grossly equal to Setting and Situations
Non-Linear Plot: Capacity of the Plot to change by PC impact. Entails Decisions Points.

Story: Grossly equal to the Narrative. The Point of View in which the Setting and the Situations (the Plot) are presented.
Non-Linear Story: Capacity of the Story to change by PC impact. In other words, the PC may change the order in which he experiences the Narrative or his Point of View. May have Passive Contact Points.

Now, in today's games, we often don't even have a linear Plot. When the PC enters a location, the plot is set, static. The PC then does everything he has to do, depleting the location. He might have some impact, but that impact often isn't of much relevence, because after making a decision of impact, it's over. It's like a game all in itself: the game is linear, you play it, and at the end, you get the cutscene telling you what happened. You do not experience the consequences of your actions, you are only told/shown what happened. For example, there is two warring factions, you choose a side and kill the other leader. You get a reward and bam!... end of story. You then move on to other things.

The devs, to counter this and give the impression that the plot in non-linear (aka you had an impact), cue in a change of location when one is depleted. Good examples: KotOR 1-2. All we get is static plot on top of static plot, with some little info between the transfer to give us the illusion that there is consequences. They may have you fooled, but they won't have me. :roll: :lol:

What I'd love to see is a game that lets you have an impact and then lets you play in the changed environnement. Obviously, that means less locations in the game, maybe only one (a city), because much more happens in it. But we can't have that, can we? How would we embark on an *epic* journey while saving the worlds along the way if we stay in one place?

Aside from the needed effort to make some sort of logical continuity between choice and consequence if we're staying in one place, there is another flaw. Things are going to need to be much more developped than "go to that unknown place of mystery" because there will be much less exploration if you mostly stay in one place. They'll also need to be more interesting to compensate for the loss of the exploration factor. There won't be any differently themed planets like in KotOR, but I still think it can be pulled off.

Well, I'm out.
 

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MrBrown said:
I didn't mean all end narratives as such, but rather ones that might or might not be there depending on the player's actions during the game. I was still assuming the Fallout example, as Fallout had those location related scenes in the end that showed how what you had done affected the future of a location.
I see your point, but still believe that those narratives aren't part of stories or aren't event points of a story. Events, which is what define linearity or lack thereof, had already happened, and end narratives merely summarize and develop those events a bit .

Wov, then we have a big disagreement.
Good. I was getting tired of all those Oblivion threads, so I'd love a good design debate.

By my definitions, Fallout had non-Linearity in the following ways: your ability to choose which location to go to in which order and in several cases how to dothe quests in those locations (Story non-Linearity), and the end narratives that changed depending on your choices in those locations (Plot non-Linearity). Most of the stuff that had to do with Mutants were very Linear.
So, both plot AND story were non-linear, which is, according to my earlier points, what it takes for a game to be non-linear. No arguing here.

However, I assume that the last sentence points at some linearity, despite the fact that you said that both story and plot were non-linear. Can you clarify that a bit and explain the mutants-related linearity (after all, you could be captured by the mutants and then escape, you could unintentionally lead the mutants toward Vault 13, mutants could wipe some locations out, could attack the cathedral first, etc)

BG on the other hand, had the ability to choose which location to go to in which order and in some cases how to do the quests in those locations (Story non-Linearity, though not to the extent of FOs).
Disagree here. Many locations were closed to you (not on your map or required triggers), and anything story-related needed to be done in sequence. Most quests - 90% were solved through combat, so again, not many choices there. You could affect neither your path nor the story. Not matter how many times you play it, both progression through the game and the overall story remains the same. (you can't leave Candlekeep on your own, you can't save Gorion, you can't help him fight Sarevok, you can't enter BG until you do the mines, you can't negotiate with the guy in the mines, etc).

I checked a walkthough to refresh my memory. I liked that part, it's very Bio and explains BG linearity well:

"Then go into the south room and talk to Mulahey there. It doesn't really matter what you say as he eventually will call the guards in either case. Don't believe him when he wants to surrender, just kill him....

Now you have a choice, you can either go back out the way you came in, or you can continue to the Second Exit. Warning! Once you go out that way, you can't come back in! It exits out into the Area NE of Nashkel Mines area."

So, to summarize it, you can't convince/trick/intimidate that guy and avoid battle, he can't surrender and give you a choice not to kill him, only after you kill him, you can exit the mines (no sneaking), and once you exit you can't go back.

Neither of these games had much of the kind non-Linearity that you said mattered the most (where a Story Event affects a Plot Event that again affects a Story Event).
True about BG, but in Fallout for example, assuming I'm using plot/story definitions correctly, a story event (sending a water caravan to the vault) will result in a plot event (the mutants learn where V13 is), affecting your story (less time to find the chip). Also, if I'm not mistaken, Necropolis could be invaded before you get there, if you take too long, which would affect your options and thus the plot.
 

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Ismaul said:
I'll side with VD on what he says, even if he is talking in reverse.
I was disputing MrBrown's position using his arguments and definitions (instead of presenting an unrelated to his points essay on non-linearity :wink:).
 

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@Ismaul:

The problem with your model is that it comes with the opionated assumption that there is no worth in Story non-Linearity (my definitions). Linearity in itself is a very objective term (see my original definitions), and saying that stuff that doesn't affect the Plot isn't Linearity because they don't really mean anything is not an objective viewpoint.

For instance, assume a situation where there's two Caves, #1 and #2. #1 has a wolf inside that the PC must fight if he enters, and #2 similarly has an orc inside it. Assume the PC has choice to enter either cave anytime he wants, and the death of either opponents doesn't bring about any future Event. Because the PC has choice to enter the caves in any order he wants, or not enter one or either at all, it is non-Linearity (of the Story kind). It might not be the kind of non-Linearity that you want, but simply because different orders of Events and the exclusion or inclusion of Events is possible, it is non-Linearity. If a single game would consist of nothing but the above, it would be a game with a non-Linear Story but a Linear Plot (the Plot would basically be "There's two caves, and each has a monster.")

The so called Sandbox games are a very valid form of (Story) non-Linearity.


Your own definitions fail somewhat because they don't take into account this kind of non-linearity. I think you're having the same confusion with the terms plot and story as Azarkon did, and are sort of lumping story and plot as the same thing.
 

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@VD:

Reading your post, I realized that I really don't remember enough of Fallout to do any in-depth analysis of it, so I'll have to back up on that. While I never doubted Fallout was more non-Linear than BG, it might have been more non-Linear than I remember.


A few things, however:
Vault Dweller said:
I see your point, but still believe that those narratives aren't part of stories or aren't event points of a story. Events, which is what define linearity or lack thereof, had already happened, and end narratives merely summarize and develop those events a bit.

What I defined as a non-Linear Event is the Event that changes (gets replaced or included, or changes it's position in the order of Events), not the Event that causes the change (by presenting the choice). So this is just a difference in terms.


Vault Dweller said:
However, I assume that the last sentence points at some linearity, despite the fact that you said that both story and plot were non-linear. Can you clarify that a bit and explain the mutants-related linearity (after all, you could be captured by the mutants and then escape, you could unintentionally lead the mutants toward Vault 13, mutants could wipe some locations out, could attack the cathedral first, etc) .

Examples of Linear Plot Events in FO (as well as I remember): The war, the past of the Master, the building of the vaults, the origin of the ghouls, etc.

All CRPGs have at least some Linear Plot Events, because there's always some kind of premise being set. Remember, a Plot Event is something that 1) does not include the PC, 2) is narrated to the player (and possible the PC). It is important to include these kind of Plot Events in the definition, because they ultimately limit (are Contact Points to) future Events.

Fallout also has at least one Linear Story Event, which is the Event when the PC is leaving his vault. It is always there, it always happens at the same point, it includes the PC, so it is a Linear Story Event. ToEE is an example of a game that doesn't start out with a Linear Story Event (but it's actually player initiated non-Linearity, not PC initiated).

As such, most CRPGs have at least some Linearity and some non-Linearity. Whether the extremes (0% and 100%) can exist in either Plot or Story Linearity and non-Linearity, I'm not sure. I suspect that they don't, but I can't confirm it yet.
 

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Quick comment, don't have much time now:

MrBrown said:
Examples of Linear Plot Events in FO (as well as I remember): The war, the past of the Master, the building of the vaults, the origin of the ghouls, etc.
Well, if that's the case, I can't imagine a non-linear plot then. These events are the background story, they were defined years before the game events started. Unless it's a time-travel game, I don't see any ways to affect or change these events.

Examples of the Fallout's plot events, as I see them, are: mutants attempts to capture your character, mutants' attempts to overrun more locations (V13, Necropolis), mutants' future, etc. Those events do not include PC, who is only informed of them. PC, however, has a chance to affect those story events with his plot events, hence, the non-linearity.

Fallout also has at least one Linear Story Event, which is the Event when the PC is leaving his vault. It is always there, it always happens at the same point, it includes the PC, so it is a Linear Story Event.
Disagree again. Even a non-linear story must start somewhere. Take your life as an ultimate non-linear game of chance. You can go anywhere and do everything, but your birth was a fixed event (mother, date, gender, place). Shortly after, you are all set and ready to explore the world. :wink:
 

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MrBrown said:
The problem with your model is that it comes with the opionated assumption that there is no worth in Story non-Linearity (my definitions). Linearity in itself is a very objective term (see my original definitions), and saying that stuff that doesn't affect the Plot isn't Linearity because they don't really mean anything is not an objective viewpoint.
We never disagreed on the fact that Story non-linearity exist event if it doesn't affect the Plot. If you look again at the definition I gave:

Ismaul said:
Non-Linear Story: Capacity of the Story to change by PC impact. In other words, the PC may change the order in which he experiences the Narrative or his Point of View. May have Passive Contact Points.
What I said is that from a role-playing point of view, this non-linearity, when not combined with a non-linear Plot (in other words, the ability to chose the order of events in the narrative with no consequence to plot), is of no direct value. Role-playing is making choices that affect the plot.

And that is, I believe, the point that VD was trying to make earlier.

The only place we disagreed on is the association of Decision Points to non-linear Story or Plot. The idea was that Decision Points affect the Plot, therefore a game that has those posesses a non-linear Plot. Passive Contact Points affect the Plot and the Story (setting and situations change, narrative moves on), but are not coming from choices made by the PC, therefore they are not taken in account when talking about non-linearity, unless they are random.
 

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Vault Dweller said:
MrBrown said:
Examples of Linear Plot Events in FO (as well as I remember): The war, the past of the Master, the building of the vaults, the origin of the ghouls, etc.
Well, if that's the case, I can't imagine a non-linear plot then. These events are the background story, they were defined years before the game events started. Unless it's a time-travel game, I don't see any ways to affect or change these events.

Examples of the Fallout's plot events, as I see them, are: mutants attempts to capture your character, mutants' attempts to overrun more locations (V13, Necropolis), mutants' future, etc. Those events do not include PC, who is only informed of them. PC, however, has a chance to affect those story events with his plot events, hence, the non-linearity.

Both your and my examples are Plot Events. Which is why I said that most Plots (possibly all) have both Linear and non-Linear Events.

Again, a Plot Event is something that 1) does not include the PC, 2) is narrated to the player (and possible the PC). It has to satisfy both requirements, but there are no other requirements. It is important to take all Events that fit the definition into consideration, because they ultimately might limit (are Contact Points to) future Events. Plots Events preceeding the Story chronologically (that is, they happened before the PC is introduced) do just this, by setting the premise for the game.


Vault Dweller said:
Fallout also has at least one Linear Story Event, which is the Event when the PC is leaving his vault. It is always there, it always happens at the same point, it includes the PC, so it is a Linear Story Event.
Disagree again. Even a non-linear story must start somewhere. Take your life as an ultimate non-linear game of chance. You can go anywhere and do everything, but your birth was a fixed event (mother, date, gender, place). Shortly after, you are all set and ready to explore the world.

It is true that there must be a start for the Story, but if that Event is not always the same, then it's a non-Linear Event. The important difference here is that what causes the non-Linearity is a choice by the player, but not by the player character.

(So yes, I broke my vow of only taking non-Linearity caused by PC choice into account. :P Another important point to consider in the future.)
 

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