Nostalgia, that is all this is..

[kosie99]

Honestly, I cannot imagine any of you lot trying the old Ultima or Wizardry games for the first time now and going "Yes, this is game is the best RPG ever!".

Let's face it, these games may give you the freedom to do whatever you want in a nice non-linear way and may have meaningful dialogue options, but it looks and plays like shit.

 

[Binary]

"looks" - It's a matter of opinion. I think the 2D world of Ultima 6 and Ultima 7 look beautiful. Ultima 7 is the only RPG to date to be totally full screen.

"plays" - Besides the combat system, what do you have to complain of? Most realistic (best?) inventory system ever?

And then in the end are you going to compare 1vs1 a modern RPG vs an old one? "Oh lookie only 320x200 gfx lawl". You have to take under consideration that games like Ultima 7 were the first with a crafting system, with NPC personalities, etc.

Oh and U7p2's soundtrack roxxxxxxorzzzzzzz

 

[Aridious]

Old Skool?

Ptch.. I take your Ultima 7 and raise you Eye of the Beholder.

I mean sure it was on Amiga, and all you did was wander for hours lost in a dungeon that wasn't animated as such just a series of images that changed, but damn was it hard. Then there's Phantasie III: Wrath of Nikademus which I still play, sadly.

Maybe I need to get out more.

 

[Atrachasis]

For the record: I played the Ultimas from VI onwards when they first came out, U I a few years later thanks to the Ultima Collection, but I didn't get around to Ultima IV and V until last year.

I will freely admit that dealing with the antiquated user interface was a threshold (as was the lack of roads on the U IV world map!), and I missed the much more detailed world and NPCs of U VI... but that notwithstanding, I will say this: walking though the Underworld in U V was more suspenseful than the deepest, darkest cave that Morrowind had ever thrown at me. And that final room in U IV, before stepping across the lava threshold with your battle-worn party members and coming face to face with the Shrine of Humility and, ultimately, the Codex itself? Most IMMERSIVE moment in gaming ever!

So there, anecdotal evidence; make of it what you wish. But those games had personality, had character, had soul. And the "looks"? Well, if that was a criterion, no book ever written could claim to be immersive, with those lackluster black-and-white ASCII graphics and all... Immersion does not come from turning off the recipient's imagination; it arises from stimulating imagination.

 

[kosie99]

I don't deny that if I played these games when they first came out, it may very well have impressed me no end, like the fallout games did.

But, unfortunately, I didn't, and now I find it very difficult to get past the UI to enjoy the game underneath. If I have to play an old-school game, i would rather replay one of the old infocom text adventures, where the only limitation is my own imagination.

Hell, I would rather play a modern MMO as a sandbox game and make up my own RPG elements along the way.

 

[Wilco]

I don't deny that if I played these games when they first came out, it may very well have impressed me no end, like the fallout games did.

But, unfortunately, I didn't, and now I find it very difficult to get past the UI to enjoy the game underneath. If I have to play an old-school game, i would rather replay one of the old infocom text adventures, where the only limitation is my own imagination.

Hell, I would rather play a modern MMO as a sandbox game and make up my own RPG elements along the way.

I agree with you fully.

It would personally be very difficult to play games as old as the Ultima series or the Gold Box games that many in the codex seem to bring up. Despite what people here say there still needs to be a graphical/atmospheric element to an RPG to make it playable (for me). I could still play X-Com for example, which was made in 1994, but that's because it has aged very, very well and has the two elements I mentioned above. So I suppose much of the codex is based on nostalgia.

 

[Rondel.]

I'm playing now in Sega Master System version of Ultima IV, and it is simply beautiful (thanks Jasede ). It's also very entertaining to play this game (collecting runes, travelling through moongates, being virtuous, talking with npcs). Pretty 2D graphics is getting older much longer than any 3D graphics.

 

[Section8]

I don't deny that if I played these games when they first came out, it may very well have impressed me no end, like the fallout games did.

I'd say that's very likely. For their time they were superb games, and some (but certainly not all) still hold up today.

But, unfortunately, I didn't, and now I find it very difficult to get past the UI to enjoy the game underneath. If I have to play an old-school game, i would rather replay one of the old infocom text adventures, where the only limitation is my own imagination.

I feel your pain, but it's only a learning curve, honestly. The problem comes from having modern games where the UI is fairly homogenised and gameplay readily transferable from one game to another. And that applies to text adventures, because they're instantly familiar, you may just have a few new verbs to learn.

The other thing that complicates things is that precious few games of the Ultima/Wizardry era had any kind of in game tutorial. You're in the deep end and that learning curve is steeper but once you're over it it's smooth sailing, and totally worth the effort.

 

[Longshanks]

It would personally be very difficult to play games as old as the Ultima series or the Gold Box games that many in the codex seem to bring up. Despite what people here say there still needs to be a graphical/atmospheric element to an RPG to make it playable (for me). I could still play X-Com for example, which was made in 1994, but that's because it has aged very, very well and has the two elements I mentioned above. So I suppose much of the codex is based on nostalgia.

I've not seen anyone claim that there does not need to be this element for you. :wink: There are many who can see past outdated graphics to good gameplay (not all old games had this, even some of those considered great at the time), or even appreciate older graphics for what they are, both those playing them for the first time and those revisiting them.

Did you know that people still play Rogue-likes? There are some crazies who still actually produce these graphically challenged games.

I played the Ultimas for the first time a couple of years ago, didn't enjoy the first three overly much, but found four and particulary five and seven to be very good. I'm playing ROA1 (not so old) for the first time at the moment and enjoying it very much. So, no nostalgia there, maybe nostalgia by proxy though, eh?

There is quite possibly some nostalgia involved (for those revisiting older games), but in the end different people look for different qualities in games, there are some aspects that the older games implement better than newer ones and vice versa. Depending on one's aspect priorities, old games or new games may be unplayable.

 

[MetalCraze]

I don't deny that if I played these games when they first came out, it may very well have impressed me no end, like the fallout games did.

I'd say that's very likely. For their time they were superb games, and some (but certainly not all) still hold up today.

I wouldn't say so. I completed Arcanum for the first time only recently - while it's graphics in some places are nearly shitty thanks to over-the-top tiling of 2-color textures. but I had a great amount of fun with Arcanum. because of everything else.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Let's face it, these games may give you the freedom to do whatever you want in a nice non-linear way and may have meaningful dialogue options, but it looks and plays like shit.

... and new games don't?

 

[MetalCraze]

Oh my...
Oblivion looks shittier and shittier with each year
considering that it looked like shit from the beginning. and then Qarl fixed something and got banned for easily doing better than beth. oh well

 

[nik2008ofs]

Arcanum an old game :!: : :!: : :!: : :!: Surely you jest.

 

[MetalCraze]

6.5 years is quite a term actually
considering that ToB that came out the same year looks much better and the combat is considerably better... because Arcanum's combat sucked balls (basically it was a clickety-click for me as a tech-guy, don't know how it was for mages)

 

[nik2008ofs]

Oh, mages didn't have to click AT ALL, it is not as if Arcanum is based on a point 'n click interface after all...you must have done something wrong with your tech guy.

And how does the fact that games that came out at the same time looked better affect the age of the game, which is an absolute value? By the same token, Mask of the Betrayer is old, since The Witcher looks better...

 

[Wilco]

I've not seen anyone claim that there does not need to be this element for you. :wink:

Never suggested that anyone did. Just my personal opinion on what should be in an RPG.

There are many who can see past outdated graphics to good gameplay (not all old games had this, even some of those considered great at the time), or even appreciate older graphics for what they are, both those playing them for the first time and those revisiting them.

I can look past dated graphics, I'm still trying to play X-Com:Enemy Unknown today (if it weren't for the crashes I would be playing it). Maybe it's the top down view with rogue-likes and similar games that doesn't sit well with me. I like isometric games but I can't stand top down. It's probably OCD speaking

I played the Ultimas for the first time a couple of years ago, didn't enjoy the first three overly much, but found four and particulary five and seven to be very good. I'm playing ROA1 (not so old) for the first time at the moment and enjoying it very much. So, no nostalgia there, maybe nostalgia by proxy though, eh?

There is quite possibly some nostalgia involved (for those revisiting older games), but in the end different people look for different qualities in games, there are some aspects that the older games implement better than newer ones and vice versa. Depending on one's aspect priorities, old games or new games may be unplayable.

The Codex is built on nostalga. I think constant complaining about newer, dumbed-down games and constant attempts to define an RPG kind of accentuates that. Most of us like older games that are nearly impossible to find today and don't generally like newer RPGs. And you are right, I for the most part don't bother with newer games. Talk to some of my asian graphics/video card-whore friends and they'll tell me any game I play is shit just by looking at it, 'because it's 2D'.

 

[Section8]

The Codex is built on nostalga. I think constant complaining about newer, dumbed-down games and constant attempts to define an RPG kind of accentuates that. Most of us like older games that are nearly impossible to find today and don't generally like newer RPGs.

I see it as being the opposite, with most of the disdain toward modern RPGs directed at the fact that aside from graphics, the underlying designs are regressive. If we really yearned for the games of yore, we'd all be very excited about a game that marries Elder Scrolls: Arena with FPS elements that are about as advanced as Wolfenstein 3D. Or games that emulate Diablo so closely.

And why don't we? Because we have those games, have played them out and want fresh ideas and games to sink our teeth into.

 

[Ladonna]

For the record: I played the Ultimas from VI onwards when they first came out, U I a few years later thanks to the Ultima Collection, but I didn't get around to Ultima IV and V until last year.

I will freely admit that dealing with the antiquated user interface was a threshold (as was the lack of roads on the U IV world map!), and I missed the much more detailed world and NPCs of U VI... but that notwithstanding, I will say this: walking though the Underworld in U V was more suspenseful than the deepest, darkest cave that Morrowind had ever thrown at me. And that final room in U IV, before stepping across the lava threshold with your battle-worn party members and coming face to face with the Shrine of Humility and, ultimately, the Codex itself? Most IMMERSIVE moment in gaming ever!

So there, anecdotal evidence; make of it what you wish. But those games had personality, had character, had soul. And the "looks"? Well, if that was a criterion, no book ever written could claim to be immersive, with those lackluster black-and-white ASCII graphics and all... Immersion does not come from turning off the recipient's imagination; it arises from stimulating imagination.

Brilliant post.

Also, well said Section 8. I see the main reason that many people are pissed off around here, in regards to RPG's today, is due to the lack of guts under the hood in most new RPG's.

RPG's never worried about competing in the looks department before, and no gamer expected them to. It was how the game did things, and the content that mainly impressed gamers. Pretty graphics is nice to have, but never at the expense of quality gaming options, depth and content.

 

[mjorkerina]

The Codex is built on nostalga. I think constant complaining about newer, dumbed-down games and constant attempts to define an RPG kind of accentuates that

As Section8 said, it's the reverse, the codex is not built on nostalgia, we don't want pure hack'n'slash like the ancestors of modern cRPGs were. We ask the game industry to pull games that should be more evolved than fallout or arcanum, not inferior games. We play some games you could call "old" because they are technically superior for everything that matters but graphism.

People here want *progress*. No matter the taste, no matter if it's a sandbox or choice and consequence designed, we want more, not less. Bethesda is a good example for sandboxes RPGs who's giving people less with each iteration. Morrowind had less world interaction and skills than Daggerfall. Oblivion had less than Morrowind, in fact Oblivion even allows the weakest character you could ever build to hit your enemies with a sword because unlike Morrowind the skills of your character do not make you miss a hit. TES 5 will probably be a first person slasher.

 

[Raapys]

I too disagree with thread starter. These last few years I've found myself more and more going back to playing older games, and although most of these are somewhat diminished because of the old graphics and often clumsy UI designs, they tend to make up for it with great gameplay, excellent music( 90's game music = teh greatest ) and often better game art than newer games, making for an overall better atmosphere.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

If it was fun then, it's fun now.

 

[avatar_58]

I don't have this problem. New or old, I can enjoy them. Whether or not I played them on release also doesn't matter to me.

As if there aren't new games that look and control like shit. I'm currently playing Culpa Innata and it falls under both categories.

 

[Azrael the cat]

playing U7 for the first time now and loving it

Hey - I'm currently playing U7. For the FIRST time. The last time I played an ultima game was about 20 years go, being Ultima 2. There is no nostalgia here - the games are VERY different. And I am absolutely LOVING U7 - much more than any of the TES games (predictable) and even more than I liked the Witcher (my favourite mainstream game of the past 12 months - actually more like the past 3 years!) or MoTB. Maybe not quite as much as I enjoyed Bloodlines, and definitely not as much as I enjoyed PS:T at the time, but still liking it a hell of a lot.

The graphics are good enough - some people simply don't mind dated graphics, just like some people don't need a movie to have l33t special effects. Don't get me wrong - if there were modern graphical games with similar gameplay then I'd prefer them obviously. The problem is that the gameplay of RPGs has changed so dramatically that it is the equivalent of making CoD5 a 3rd person platformer. Just imagine that for a second - Doom 4, CoD 5, Far Cry 2 etc all start coming out as 3rd person PLATFORMERS. Without a gun in sight, and no point and click aiming - but AWESOME graphics and fast-paced, fun platforming gameplay. Do you think the FPS fans would just switch over because the games are newer? No - they'd bemoan the loss of their genre, and keeping playing indie games and older games of the FPS genre until/unless the industry came back around to making FPS games again. Why should fans of isometric party-based tactical RPGs be any different?

 

[avatar_58]

Play Serpent Isle right afterwards. I fucking envy you big time, playing it for the first time.

 

[Saxon1974]

I too disagree with thread starter. These last few years I've found myself more and more going back to playing older games, and although most of these are somewhat diminished because of the old graphics and often clumsy UI designs, they tend to make up for it with great gameplay, excellent music( 90's game music = teh greatest ) and often better game art than newer games, making for an overall better atmosphere.

Agree, it is not all nostalgia.