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[Atrokkus]

Magic missle is probably one of the most uselsss offensive spell a level 1 wizard could memorize.

Bullshit. It's one of the must-have lvl1 spells, because it remains usefull even in mid-levels, and sometimes even on high-levels, because the number of missiles incresses with level (to an extent). Besides, it inflicts magic damage, to which several creatures are vulnerable (e.g. dragons).

 

[Avin]

most combats in LEVEL ONE are decided by INITIATIVE, not tactics. any true D&D player knows it.

anybody that has a different opinion should put it on a table with dices.

 

[bryce777]

"Ok, the wizard has to win initiative (even though his dex is probably lower) and then the fighter has to fail his saving throw (and I think it may even be a fort saving throw). Wel'll assume the coup de grace works."

You should know stuff before posting.

1. Why would a wizard automatically have lower dex than a fighter? Netx to intelligence, dex i s probably the most useful ability for a wizard. Meanwhile, a fighter will likely focus on str, con, and even intelligence for skill points. Uusually, except for finesse fighters, dex would likely be max of dex12 (for powergaming fullplate wearers).

2. Sleep is a will save. Which, if you forget, a warrior sucks at.


"Yeah and my grandma could EAISLY kill a delta force team...if she had the launch code for an ICBM. But in most circumstances delta force ... and the fighter are going to win handily. Maybe in your gaming every wizard had sleep and magic missile at lvl 1, and no fighters were elves, and you always got to rest after every cast. Or it could just be your general dumbfuckery."

You are stupid. Comparing a grandma to a level 1 wizard, and comparing a pathetic level 1 warrior to a team of delta force trained freaks with guns.

The fact you need to do so proves that you need to stretch things to give the advantages to the pathetiuc warrior says it all. Espicially your lame way of throwing elves into it.

Of course, you forget useful level 1 spells stretch beyond sleep. Magic missle is probably one of the most uselsss offensive spell a level 1 wizard could memorize. The fact you think it's useful proves you have no idea what you are talking about.

Moron.


"So, it is all in the strategery."

You win. :D

Only idiots go for high dexterity wizards or low dexterity fighters. Most fighters these days multiclass at least one level of rogue and the new rules make dexterity much more attractive, especially with point buy (to non idiots). At level one, the class saving throw bonuses won't matter much,a nd using point buy there is much less min maxing, so a will save will have no massive penalties.

So, in short, you are an idiot. Which we knew already.

 

[Atrokkus]

most combats in LEVEL ONE are decided by INITIATIVE, not tactics. any true D&D player knows it.

We're talking about CRPGs here, please don't stray away from the topic.

 

[Sarvis]

Magic missle is probably one of the most uselsss offensive spell a level 1 wizard could memorize.

Bullshit. It's one of the must-have lvl1 spells, because it remains usefull even in mid-levels, and sometimes even on high-levels, because the number of missiles incresses with level (to an extent). Besides, it inflicts magic damage, to which several creatures are vulnerable (e.g. dragons).

He said "a level <b>1</b> wizard could memorize." He's right, at level 1 MM tends to suck, you need to be shooting at least 2 missiles before it's really worth casting...

Have it for later maybe, but you can probably memorize something better.

 

[Volourn]

"Bullshit. It's one of the must-have lvl1 spells, because it remains usefull even in mid-levels, and sometimes even on high-levels, because the number of missiles incresses with level (to an extent). Besides, it inflicts magic damage, to which several creatures are vulnerable (e.g. dragons)."

As Sarvis so politely pointed out, you sir, are a moron. Of course, magic missle is useful later on. But, at level 1, it's not one of the best spells to memorize.
"


Only idiots go for high dexterity wizards or low dexterity fighters. Most fighters these days multiclass at least one level of rogue and the new rules make dexterity much more attractive, especially with point buy (to non idiots). At level one, the class saving throw bonuses won't matter much,a nd using point buy there is much less min maxing, so a will save will have no massive penalties."

ididiot. Since when is dex12 considered low? Dumbass. In fact, wizards should go for go for a good dex, dumbass. Dex is a very useful ability score for wizards in so many ways. Dumbass.

 

[Avin]

DEX? spent any points you want in DEX, what will be your DEX bonus in lv 1?

human fighter = 3 feats in lv 1. go for DEX 12 (for full plate dex bonus) buy improved initiative, power attack and weapon focus.

init 5 + dice.

kill wizard.

game over.

 

[bryce777]

More so than for fighters? Nope.

high dex fighters are practically the norm because they have massive advantages, though usually no one starts are a fighter any more to be honest.

So again it comes to your idiot example depending on your wizard winning initiative and then the fighter failing his saving throw. Totally assinine.

Duels are hardly the point of DnD anyhow. Like I said a fighter is good because he can go the distance over a lot of combats but a wizard is there to save your ass when you get an ogre and 10 kobolds attacking your level one party.

The summation of this thread, as most threads here, is that you are an insane idiot, and not only do you make and defend irrational claims, but you do not even have anything invested in them and are meely being an argumentative twat to get the attention you missed out on when you were a kid. And in your 20s. And which you will never get anywhere but the internet.

 

[Volourn]

Huh. if you say so. If it was only so easy.

Oh please. It's hilairouis that you are accusing me of beinga rgumentative when that's exatcly what you are doing.

I never said the fighter couldn't win. I said it was more of an equal fight than others think.

Afterall, the fighter has to win initiave, hit the wizard's ac, and do enough damage to kill (thta part would be relatively easy).

A wizard has to win initiative, cast a spell, and hope the warrior fails his low will save.

See, not as far fetch as you claim.

Dumbass.

 

[Drakron]

Only idiots or people that like to build characters into a direction instead of min-max it.

High dex wizards are common if the character is going to be a arcane archer (yes, likely he is multiclassed with him being a fighter first but ...) and I played some low dex fighters because their field of specialization did not required dex, saying "all fighters will have at least 12 dex" is a min-maxer argument.

Volourn argument is the same of the people that play the game for the rules instead of the people that play the game with the rules, I do not like broken characters but I am not going to make all my fighter characters with at least 12 dex to gain that +1 AC along with my full plate.

 

[bryce777]

Well, like I said there are infinite varieties of builds.

However, full plate sucks ass anyhow. With the way the rules work, you have to be almost stupid to use full plate instead of a higher dex and lighter armor. There are also a lot of nifty feats that require at least 12 dexterity and some that require 14 or more I believe.

You can make an archer/mage, but they suck. mages should concentrate on spellcasting to be most effective.

Later on you get so many items and various bonuses taking dex just for the ac is idiotic for a wizard, and taking it to shoot arrows is like getting a boob job for your dog. To make shooting arrows worth a good god damn you need like 4 feats, and if you do that your spellcasting will be for dick fuck and you will have basically a retarded and nearly worthless character ie a volourn.

 

[bryce777]

Huh. if you say so. If it was only so easy.

Oh please. It's hilairouis that you are accusing me of beinga rgumentative when that's exatcly what you are doing.

I never said the fighter couldn't win. I said it was more of an equal fight than others think.

Afterall, the fighter has to win initiave, hit the wizard's ac, and do enough damage to kill (thta part would be relatively easy).

A wizard has to win initiative, cast a spell, and hope the warrior fails his low will save.

See, not as far fetch as you claim.

Dumbass.

Damn, you are an idiot.

At least you are smart enough to backpedal.

Once the fighter doesn't fall asleep, the wizard is dead almost for certain. The fighter doesn't have to kill the wizard in the first round. The conclusion is pretty much foregone after the wizard fails to put him to sleep. Not only will he have better attack value and more hit oints, but he will be a round ahead because the wizard spent the first round casting a spell.

 

[Volourn]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!

Argumentiave much, hypocrite.

I ain't the one backpedaling. Other than my sarcastic extreme, I've been saying that all along.

Admit it, you suck at D&D. No wodner yopu thoguht TOEE was so great. It was so easy that it catered to your simple mind.

Hahaha.

At level 1, fighters and warriors are about equal.

At higher levels, it's not even a contest unless the ph@t lewt starts dropping to make the warrior immune to everything. Otherwise, the wizard wins easily.

 

[bryce777]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!

Argumentiave much, hypocrite.

I ain't the one backpedaling. Other than my sarcastic extreme, I've been saying that all along.

Admit it, you suck at D&D. No wodner yopu thoguht TOEE was so great. It was so easy that it catered to your simple mind.

Hahaha.

At level 1, fighters and warriors are about equal.

At higher levels, it's not even a contest unless the ph@t lewt starts dropping to make the warrior immune to everything. Otherwise, the wizard wins easily.

Oh please, backpedal. And make your wizard so it can fight 10 kobolds at level 10 with its bow. Those bow feats you wasted are a great addition to the party as you try to take on a dragon or demon lord down the road.

No one ever argued that wizards are powerful (probably too powerful) at high levels.

 

[Volourn]

Are you on crack, dumbass? A level one fighter is likely not able to beat that many goblins and kobodls either, dumbass. That proves nothing, dumbass. What's this talk of dragons and demons shit, dumbass? Are you drunk, dumbass? Still being argumentative, dumbass? Still being a hypocrite, dumbass? Keep up the good work, dumbass.

R00fles!

 

[bryce777]

As for high dex fighters, they are better because lighter armor means faster movement and better initiative means you can catch your opponents flatfooted or position them into a flank ight off the bat. And position yourself in the optimal way to take advantage of attacks of opportunities, making combats against bowwielding wizards pretty much a foregone conclusion.

 

[Drakron]

Not always ...

Higher strenght means more damage (unless its a fitness weapon) and higher constitution means more HP and better fortitude saves (and "save or die" spells tend to be a fort save), its really going to depend on the build.

As for heavy armor sucking ... that is true to some extend, DMs have the tools to make armor sucking or not, I always had the tendacy to make heavy armor having damage resistence enchanting as lighter armor tended to had other enchantements.

 

[bryce777]

Not always ...

Higher strenght means more damage (unless its a fitness weapon) and higher constitution means more HP and better fortitude saves (and "save or die" spells tend to be a fort save), its really going to depend on the build.

As for heavy armor sucking ... that is true to some extend, DMs have the tools to make armor sucking or not, I always had the tendacy to make heavy armor having damage resistence enchanting as lighter armor tended to had other enchantements.

Well, it depends on how you make your character to. If you rool it and you ahve an 18, a 16, and the next highest is a 9 then you might want to go with low dexterity. if you do point buy, you are better off with a 14 in each stat.

If you want to dual wield you might go with a low strength character and weapon mastery though, and take a few levels of rogue. If you have low dex and low intelligence, it really cuts out most of the cool feats a fighter can get.

 

[Drakron]

I played a mace fighter, the 2 hands kind of mace fighter ... There was no point in dex, only strenght.

That is the problem, a lot just use basic builds ... I dont, I even had a elf wizard with a few fighter levels and with no intention of picking PtC (I offset the slight lower spellcasting ability with a veritable collection of wands).

 

[Awakened_Yeti]

the problem started when Wizrds of the Coast decided to redo the D&D system with their d20 rules - they should have chucked the original system and made it up all from scratch... instead they hung on to a lot of garbage and useless fluff

oldschool TSR D&D was incredibly simplistic and even silly with its rules - almost more like a board game.. which is appropriate since the original intention of the game was for doing dungeon crawls with wargaming minatures - very tactical, very stat and rules based... unlike the early Palladium games which were much more focused on the RP aspect

 

[elander_]

Old school d&d and any rpg in general works very well if you are playing with a team and the game is not crippled like NWN and let you have absolute control of your companions. Just imagine Fallout 2 with the team turn-base system of Fallout Tactics or NWN with the Baldurs Gate system and you get the idea.

On the wizard subject it reminds me how i finished NWN with a level 16 wizard. I think i only attacked an npc a douzen of times with my hands. Never used any armor or weapon. My char inteligence at level 15 was 28 (with boost items) all my other stats were crap like 8 or less except for constitution 16.

So my char was behind the door at the entrance of the last room. I was powering up all my team mates, the conjured hemled horror, the pixie familiar (good for disarming traps and distracting foes) and the uhtgard half-orc killing machine with all kinds of magic protections, barkskins and hastes.

After opening the door there was a short interlude after the battle with the bitch. She conjured two of the toughest fighters in the game each one magic protected againts spells bellow cone of cold spell level, with more than 200 hp and dealing about 40 points of damage (counted enchantements) and hasted.

No problem my team was protected against them and could beat up their asses. Thats one the bitch cast a stupid little lightning spell that did 0 damage but hit all my team mates. The next moments were hilarious. All my team mates start running towards her ignoring the blade trap in the floor in front of her and got instantly killed for 200 hp damage each.

I think i paused the game and stand there looking at the monitor for seconds cursing the guy who had the bright idea of making henchmans and evaluate my options. Just for the hell of it i decided to try to beat her and her two hands with my wzard dude. For my suprise, with half the power-up spells already wasted was capable of finishing the game without a scratch and still have spells left.

If i remenber well the bitch was allways casting dispel on me and i was allways casting spell mantle, greater barkskin, energy buffer, and illusion protection spells. With two horrid wittling (or whatever the name is) and a spell that casts a plant mosnter with two heads i dispathed the fighters then finished the acolytes behind the blade trap with cone of cold spells and even magic missiles.

 

[dagamer667]

That was probably the greatest problem with the NWN official campaign. None of the DND classes are one-man armies, which is how all NWN campaigns are. One hireling simply isn't enough to cover all the bases. Of course, the gnomes at bioware 'fixed' the problem by liberally sprinkling the game world with magic resistant items like the hideously overpowered ring that gave 15/- DR against fire, cold, acid, and electrical.

Of course, that completely wipes out the fun factor of putting together and playing with a party.

As far as wizards are concerned, I do find it annoying when 90% of the time, resting is forced by the wizard running out of all decent spells. I think the problem could be solved by adding a 'cooldown' period that will recharge once fighting stops. Of course, during combat spell won't recharge and only the spells that were ready at the beginning of the fight are avalable.

 

[Ellester]

That was probably the greatest problem with the NWN official campaign. None of the DND classes are one-man armies, which is how all NWN campaigns are. One hireling simply isn't enough to cover all the bases. Of course, the gnomes at bioware 'fixed' the problem by liberally sprinkling the game world with magic resistant items like the hideously overpowered ring that gave 15/- DR against fire, cold, acid, and electrical.

My wizard in the OC had a belt against slashing and the adventurers robe. He was untouchable against physical attacks. The two Dragons at the end could never hit me. It was sad. At that time though I didn’t care for a challenge as I just wanted to finish it. And the final battle I was untouchable again except against the spells, but considering I had about 30 Heal potions I just used one after each magical attack. I should of just taken the Wizard through the game nude and it would have been a challenge.

As far as wizards are concerned, I do find it annoying when 90% of the time, resting is forced by the wizard running out of all decent spells. I think the problem could be solved by adding a 'cooldown' period that will recharge once fighting stops. Of course, during combat spell won't recharge and only the spells that were ready at the beginning of the fight are available.

That’s what the Warlock class is for. Its for people who don’t like the idea of having to rest to regain spells. Warlocks' don't have this problem.

 

[bryce777]

It's because a mage is not supposed to be an unlimited powerhouse one man army as in nwn or as many characters would like to play. that is why things called parties of adventuers exist in some games....

 

[obediah]

The drive from large party to small party or single character has really been a double-edged sword. The biggest and worst drive of course has been simplification for dumbasses with an extra $50. I guess this started with the incredible shrinking party, from 8 to 6 to 5 to 4 to 3. As the party shrinks so does diversity, so we go from 6 highly specialized characters to 3 generic characters. Then there is the nasty shrink to one so we don't need a pause in RT.

The positive is that roleplaying is much better with only one character. Planescape and Fallout for example both really exploited this and would have been much less engrossing if you had been leading a generic party. Of course the marketing beauty of this is that you simplify your game to increase sales and then push that on IGN and push the increased roleplaying possibilities on the codex. hooray, teh win.

Regardless of intentions, being straddled with crappy henchman AI and the inability to form a strategy within a group is always a problem. Technically, it shouldn't be a problem to allow the player a choice in how much control they have. I guess it comes down to either designer ego "my vision is perfect" or the challenge of balance - henchman AI is so craptacular that a very challenging fight becomes a cakewalk when you give the player full control. Pony up and give us the choice.