NWN2: Storm of Zehir expansion (now confirmed)

[Nathaniel Chapman]

but I would've wished that when you create a character game would assign a personality to him/her.

I mean, on some level isn't the point of these role playing systems that we can infer a lot about your character's personality from their attributes, skills, alignment and class?

 

[MetalCraze]

it would be better if they weren't a simple loot mules/combat assistance though.

I mean - wouldn't it create too much "contrast" between characters with personalities and characters you created if it will go the way it goes now?
like half of your party will seem alive, while the other one will be bland and silent.

 

[Jaesun]

Why don't you have a dumbfuck tag yet?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

it would be better if they weren't a simple loot mules/combat assistance though.

I mean - wouldn't it create too much "contrast" between characters with personalities and characters you created if it will go the way it goes now?
like half of your party will seem alive, while the other one will be bland and silent.

Better write that they were tragically born without a personality to their biographies.

 

[Nathaniel Chapman]

it would be better if they weren't a simple loot mules/combat assistance though.

I mean - wouldn't it create too much "contrast" between characters with personalities and characters you created if it will go the way it goes now?
like half of your party will seem alive, while the other one will be bland and silent.

Well, the hope is that the player conversation options you choose help you craft a personality, isn't it? I mean, I know that my guy in Fallout certainly had a personality that showed through in the dialog options I picked. Granted, some part of that is using my imagination - but that's one of the best parts of playing a CRPG imo.

 

[Nathaniel Chapman]

Why don't you have a dumbfuck tag yet?

wtb dev title 5g pst

 

[KazikluBey]

Well, the hope is that the player conversation options you choose help you craft a personality, isn't it? I mean, I know that my guy in Fallout certainly had a personality that showed through in the dialog options I picked. Granted, some part of that is using my imagination - but that's one of the best parts of playing a CRPG imo.

But you didn't create and control multiple characters in Fallout. The original question was if there will be party interaction among your player characters.

 

[MetalCraze]

I've meant custom characters you will make through the game - "at some point" as was said here, not the main player's one of course - if there will be main player's character.
but nevermind.

 

[Jaesun]

Why don't you have a dumbfuck tag yet?

wtb dev title 5g pst

I meant Skyway not you.

And yea, where the hell is your spiffy Dev avatar?

 

[Nathaniel Chapman]

Well, the hope is that the player conversation options you choose help you craft a personality, isn't it? I mean, I know that my guy in Fallout certainly had a personality that showed through in the dialog options I picked. Granted, some part of that is using my imagination - but that's one of the best parts of playing a CRPG imo.

But you didn't create and control multiple characters in Fallout. The original question was if there will be party interaction among your player characters.

Well, honestly there wasn't much interaction between your party members in Fallout either. As to the question you're asking re: SoZ, I think it'll be somewhat more clear when you see the details of the party conversation system.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Well, the hope is that the player conversation options you choose help you craft a personality, isn't it? I mean, I know that my guy in Fallout certainly had a personality that showed through in the dialog options I picked. Granted, some part of that is using my imagination - but that's one of the best parts of playing a CRPG imo.

But you didn't create and control multiple characters in Fallout. The original question was if there will be party interaction among your player characters.

First of all, I am all for party interaction.

But I'm not sure how we can create the kind of party interaction you and I are looking for that can keep up with a human imagination.

What I mean is, in NX2 I can create a completely random party of adventurers that are completely different from any other party stereotype.

The sole feature that exists, outside of the character itself, that determines personality, is the assigned dialog file. How would it be humanely possible to create an unknown number of dialog files that can all interact with each other and still not seem shallow?

We have talked about many options, for example like maybe assigning a dialog file based on the characters background feat, but what if the player doesn't choose one?

At this point, what we have decided to go with is to allow the player determine the personality of the characters in the party (aside from the cohorts and companions) by allowing individual party members to choose individual conversation options via the new party conversation system.

Does that make sense?

 

[Kingston]

So it works out like ToEE, I guess. Create your own party and recruit npcs along the way, if you so wish. Sounds good to me. I think Icewind Dale felt the best in that regard, you really felt like you had to build a solid party to withstand the game ahead.

Did you say low-level? That would rock.

I'm just wondering, why an expansion when it could be stand-alone. I think a lot of people who heard good stuff about MotB didn't buy it because they needed NWN2 aswell (... and I base this on absolutely nothing!). Its not like the playing of NWN2 was crucial to MotB's fun factor, I certainly didn't finish NWN2.

Oh shit, I just remembered. What's the max party member count? If its not a six-man party then, hell it should be. Although managing five npcs alongside your char in the nwn2 engine sounds a bit shitty.

 

[burrie]

Ach, I like what I'm hearing.

Mmm, seeing as how we'll visit Crossroad Keep, any chance that we can import our NWN2/MotB character in there as the lord of the castle? Likely not, but never hurts to ask

 

[Gragt]

Well, honestly there wasn't much interaction between your party members in Fallout either.

Ian loved to shoot me in the back with his SMG in burst mode, does that count for interactions between party members?

Else I join the others in that I like to see the reactions of the party to some events or decisions I make, be them minor or major, as long as they are well-written. Having some companions seem nice but I also like the idea given before of giving a personality to the player characters except one that woud be my avatar. IWD 1&2 for exemple were a bit boring with sometimes the story stopping for a long time while you explored dungeons (granted I just love those two games). The way you talk of it it seems the party system will be somewhat akin to ToEE where you created your whole party but could recruit companions along the way though only a few had interesting stuff to say during the game and no party banter.

On the subject of ToEE, it was nice to be able to recruit characters who would betray you at some point though it was a bit predictable if said character was evil. It would be nice to have the surprise of being betrayed by a good character even if yourself are good, for one reason or another.

By the way, will these companions also ask for a share of the loot? Or is it not decided yet?

Edit: wonderin about being able to have one of your own party members (not companion then) intervene in a conversation, for exemple if your current talker is not really good with intidimate checks and the bulky warrior will jump to his rescue if you ask him to. Basically you control them so you can decide to have them do it or not while a companion would join a conversation if he decides it himself.

Maybe in 5 minutes I'll find that idea pretty stupid but right now it seems interesting.

 

[cardtrick]

This sounds great. NWN2 is definitely the gift that keeps on giving . . . MOTB, Purgatorio, now this. I like many of the changes you guys have described, and I think it's great that you're not afraid to try really new things in an expansion. Not much more to say that hasn't already been said.

The only real concern is that Obisidan has become firmly established as my favorite commercial developer, which means it's absolutely certain that they're going to go belly up before this is released. Alas!

 

[MetalCraze]

@Anthony Davis: yes. I was asking about this thing actually. too bad it's too hard to assign personalities to non-main custom-made characters but well anyway - the way it is now it seems ok though a bit odd. I hope that conversations won't happen randomly like in IWD2 where you never knew which one of your characters will talk/reply to npc now as a main one.

@Jaesun: you fail at reading.

 

[Raapys]

Just chiming in, first good news on the gaming front in weeks.

About the dialog system, you mean that the player determines the personality of his party members based on what type of conversation options he uses for them? So if I have one of my self-made party members say i.e. 'Die, you son of a bitch' then he becomes a mean bastard?

 

[cardtrick]

(Sorry for the double post, here, but my computer's being a bit weird with cookies at the moment and editing isn't working right.)

Actually, as long as we have Obsidian developers posting and clearly reading a thread, and even (gasp!) answering questions, there's one thing I wanted to mention.

While I love MOTB and actually like the OC more than I should probably be publicly admitting, I'm not the world's greatest fan of the NWN2 engine -- and I imagine you guys aren't either, although obviously it would be impolitic for you to say so. Huge improvements were made in the patches leading up to MOTB -- particularly in performance and the camera -- but there's still a long ways to go.

So, here's the question -- are there plans to similarly overhaul the engine as N2X2 is developed?

I think the most glaring flaw (performance aside) in the engine as it currently stands is companion/enemy AI. However, Tony K's AI pack goes a huge way toward making the game more fun and playable. I really, really think that Obsidian ought to adopt his AI mod or a similar in-house effort into the base engine. It is not something that belongs as a mod. It would be great to have that as part of the core functionality of the game (and obviously, Tony K should be credited, and maybe paid, for his hard work).

 

[Anthony Davis]

(Sorry for the double post, here, but my computer's being a bit weird with cookies at the moment and editing isn't working right.)

Actually, as long as we have Obsidian developers posting and clearly reading a thread, and even (gasp!) answering questions, there's one thing I wanted to mention.

While I love MOTB and actually like the OC more than I should probably be publicly admitting, I'm not the world's greatest fan of the NWN2 engine -- and I imagine you guys aren't either, although obviously it would be impolitic for you to say so. Huge improvements were made in the patches leading up to MOTB -- particularly in performance and the camera -- but there's still a long ways to go.

So, here's the question -- are there plans to similarly overhaul the engine as N2X2 is developed?

I think the most glaring flaw (performance aside) in the engine as it currently stands is companion/enemy AI. However, Tony K's AI pack goes a huge way toward making the game more fun and playable. I really, really think that Obsidian ought to adopt his AI mod or a similar in-house effort into the base engine. It is not something that belongs as a mod. It would be great to have that as part of the core functionality of the game (and obviously, Tony K should be credited, and maybe paid, for his hard work).

I can't really address anything here specifically that you are asking. However, I didn't want to just not say anything and appear to be ignoring you, because you concerns are valid.

 

[easychord]

At this point, what we have decided to go with is to allow the player determine the personality of the characters in the party (aside from the cohorts and companions) by allowing individual party members to choose individual conversation options via the new party conversation system.

Does that make sense?

Does that mean that I will be able to select who is speaking when I select a dialog option or that I will end up speaking to myself? :shock:

 

[Anthony Davis]

At this point, what we have decided to go with is to allow the player determine the personality of the characters in the party (aside from the cohorts and companions) by allowing individual party members to choose individual conversation options via the new party conversation system.

Does that make sense?

Does that mean that I will be able to select who is speaking when I select a dialog option or that I will end up speaking to myself? :shock:

I can't go into too many details about the Party Conversation system yet.

 

[MetalCraze]

The sole feature that exists, outside of the character itself, that determines personality, is the assigned dialog file. How would it be humanely possible to create an unknown number of dialog files that can all interact with each other and still not seem shallow?

We have talked about many options, for example like maybe assigning a dialog file based on the characters background feat, but what if the player doesn't choose one?

hmm come to think of it there could be another way.
like f.e. player creates a custom non-main character.
he chooses stats, feats, abilities, appearance etc.
then the time comes to choose the alignment.
and here you can ask him whether he will prefer to assign a personality to this character or not - if not he chooses the alignment normally and his character won't have a premade personality - if yes - you show him the list of pre-made dialog files based on alignments like

Personalities:
1. Char Name, Neutral Evil, a short background info (just to give a feel of the personality)
2. Char Name, Lawful Good, a short background info
3. Char Name, Lawful Neutral, a short background info
...
which will set an alignment to the character as well.

this way you won't have to create hundreds of dialog files - but at least 5 or 6 will do a nice job (and I doubt that you will create a party entirely of a single alignment chars) and it will be easy to get away with a personality based only on an alignment and still not make it to look shallow.
of course depending on char's class some options will be "grayed out".

 

[Starwars]

All is forgiven as long as I'll be able to make a party of Genasi bards.

 

[easychord]

I can't go into too many details about the Party Conversation system yet.

The fact that you have one sounds promising enough for now.

 

[Anthony Davis]

The sole feature that exists, outside of the character itself, that determines personality, is the assigned dialog file. How would it be humanely possible to create an unknown number of dialog files that can all interact with each other and still not seem shallow?

We have talked about many options, for example like maybe assigning a dialog file based on the characters background feat, but what if the player doesn't choose one?

hmm come to think of it there could be another way.
like f.e. player creates a custom non-main character.
he chooses stats, feats, abilities, appearance etc.
then the time comes to choose the alignment.
and here you can ask him whether he will prefer to assign a personality to this character or not - if not he chooses the alignment normally and his character won't have a premade personality - if yes - you show him the list of pre-made dialog files based on alignments like

Personalities:
1. Char Name, Neutral Evil, a short background info (just to give a feel of the personality)
2. Char Name, Lawful Good, a short background info
3. Char Name, Lawful Neutral, a short background info
...
which will set an alignment to the character as well.

this way you won't have to create hundreds of dialog files - but at least 5 or 6 will do a nice job (and I doubt that you will create a party entirely of a single alignment chars) and it will be easy to get away with a personality based only on an alignment and still not make it to look shallow.
of course depending on char's class some options will be "grayed out".

In a new world with a new engine, anything might be possible. However, in DnD alignment can restrict class selection, which is why class selection is done so early in the character creation process.

Also, if I created a party of all LG do gooders, they would all start to sound alike, when they probably would be nothing at all alike. A LG Elf would probably behave much more different and with more long term goals than a shorter lived LG human, just as an example.

If the goal is to create deep party interaction, just think about how many permutations of characters and character combinations someone can create. It is not a small number. In MOTB, we were able to achieve deep party interactions specifically because the party was very tightly defined. We knew every possible combination going forward.

Try writing out an example for starters and then go from there - stretch it out for different party and character combinations. Now multiply that by every interactive instance in the game.

I like that you are thinking about the problem, after all, this is how problems get solved. I am NOT saying that it is not possible to come up with a system that could work or at least do a passable job at party interaction with a random party. I think it is totally possible given enough time and resources. Personally I think you should fire up the toolset and go for it.