OBLIVION GERMAN VIDEO!!!

[Nog Robbin]

Balance is absolutely required for single-player games. Otherwise, the choices are uninteresting. Even worse, your preferred playstyles may likely be gimped, even to the point of unplayability. A lot of good having a lot of options does you if you really want to play a stealthy character, but stealthy characters are so vastly inferior that you can't get very far with one, and the gameplay is more frustrating than fun.

Choosing your difficulty level should not in any way be the same choice as the style of play.

Moreover, you should not be forced to suffer through excessively frustrating gameplay because of roleplay decisions.

Choice with consequence, but the consequence should make sense and be fun, or the choice is already made for you.

I'm not sure i agree. In fact, I'm quite certain I don't. I think the races should start and end differently. Some will be better at being certain classes due to racial advantages, the same way others will be worse. Then you will get your average characters who don't necessarily excel at anything but make a reasonable all rounder.
What Beth have done is pretty much make each race the same. They start off very slightly different, but by the end (or any reasonable amount of time has passed) they are all essentially the same apart from the look.

Just because a race is harder to play doesn't mean people won't play it. For a start it adds additional challenge - and on subsequent run throughs that is no small fact. It also allows you to roleplay the underdog, the runt, or the outcast - struggling to be something noone ever thought they would. In MW (and potentially OB) it's irrelevant - any one and any race can do anything.

As for boots and helms - I believe they shouldn't have regressed to the older (DF) style of beast races. If you have to balance the fact they can't wear boots (and why would they? Where they are from boots are obviously not required, the feet are probably tougher anyway, and with the khajiits they have claws), then you add another minor advantage.

Then again, I also believe it would be good for items of clothing or armour not magically fit all people anyway. A shop may stock items in most sizes, but if you kill someone for their stuff they should be of the same proportions. In MW an Altmer can kill a Bosmer for their trousers - and they still fit! How about having a range of sizes? It's still only one mesh and texture - just available as different items in game based on size. Same should apply to armour.
Of course, with appropriate skills maybe a character could adjust/fix the clothes/armour - or pay to get it adjusted.

 

[franc kaos]

...
BTW, "Bethesda made beast races playable largely due to complaints" No they didn't. Don't disillussion yourself and think that. It just happened to coincide with what the developers felt they should do.

Before MW was released they said no playable beast races, the fans kicked up a fuss, and they reinstated them. When Bethesda said there would be forced reloads in Oblivion the fans kicked up a fuss and it was changed.

Sounds like you can make a difference.

 

[Nog Robbin]

When Bethesda said there would be forced reloads in Oblivion the fans kicked up a fuss and it was changed.

"Forced reload" being that deplorable situation when you stupidly kill someone (probably for no reason) that turns out to be relevant to the main quest?
So much for living with the consequence of actions.

How exactly was it a "forced reload"? Did it say "Yo! Dumbass! This person was required. Press a key to load last save.". Or was it an impled (thereby not forced) reload - as it was in MW (e.g. a message saying you screwed up - but you still have the chance to continue, just not completing the main quest)?

 

[Sabregirl]

[
How exactly was it a "forced reload"? Did it say "Yo! Dumbass! This person was required. Press a key to load last save.". Or was it an impled (thereby not forced) reload - as it was in MW (e.g. a message saying you screwed up - but you still have the chance to continue, just not completing the main quest)?

My understanding was it was a true FORCED reload, kill the guy and you reload the game. I hear the decision to remove forced reloads came more from complaints from their beta testers than anything else. I still think if someone wants to screw up their game then that's THEIR problem . . . and it should bed allowe to happen. I've heard arguments both ways on the beast races as ot whether it was due to the fans or not I'm not sure there's a true concrete answer on that one but there's a good chance there was influence on that decision.

-S

 

[Fresh]

 

[John_Blazze]

this pic is funny , BUT this elven faggot in video looks more like COLLIN FARREL ("S.W.A.T.", "Phonebooth", "Recruit") only with sun tan lol
....look for yourselves (ofcourse without elven ears and stupid harcut):

 

[Section8]

I'll see your Eric Estrada and raise you. Safe for work, but not eyes.

 

[Fresh]

I'll see your Eric Estrada and raise you. Safe for work, but not eyes.

Lol!

I'm re-raising:

 

[Solik]

Obviously that's a somewhat esoteric example, but take ADOM for another - it has class/race combinations that make certain sections of the game more or less difficult (ex: Troll Healers start very strong but have many problems towards the end, while Dragonmen have special concerns with certain parts of the game). In particular, many race/class combinations have wildly different versions of the early game to contend with, with extremely disparate levels of initial power.

Those are types of balance and can be valid if pulled off well.

If it takes a thief three hours to navigate a dungeon by sneaking, climbing, picking locks and ambushing, while a tankish warrior can plough through in one hour, that's not an indication that the thief is unbalanced in and of itself.

Perfectly true. If, however, it's not possible for a thief to navigate the dungeon successfully at all without a lot of consecutive lucky rolls on the RNG, well, that's not balance.

I'm not sure i agree. In fact, I'm quite certain I don't.

I think you do, you just misunderstood me

I think the races should start and end differently. Some will be better at being certain classes due to racial advantages, the same way others will be worse. Then you will get your average characters who don't necessarily excel at anything but make a reasonable all rounder.

All those things sound like balance to me. Breaking balance would be where you have a race that's worse than the other races at everything. Or a race that's better than the other races at everything.

Although, having races glued towards certain classes is probably the least interesting kind of balance. It'd be a much more interesting choice if most, if not all, of the race-class combinations were valid and useful, even if you had to really think about it to figure out a way to make it work.

Just because a race is harder to play doesn't mean people won't play it. For a start it adds additional challenge - and on subsequent run throughs that is no small fact. It also allows you to roleplay the underdog, the runt, or the outcast - struggling to be something noone ever thought they would.

This is somewhat okay in games of skill (even though it unnecessarily gimps players who like the race for whatever reason but really don't want to play the game on essentially an increased difficulty level). Not entirely sure why you'd desire this at all in a game ruled by an RNG, since gimping yourself means loading your save game more until the RNG behaves itself.

If you have to balance the fact they can't wear boots (and why would they? Where they are from boots are obviously not required, the feet are probably tougher anyway, and with the khajiits they have claws), then you add another minor advantage.

I agree, so long as you don't have something like the Boots of Blinding Speed, which eventually became required to keep your sanity in your 12th playthrough of Morrowind, heh.

 

[Nog Robbin]

If you have to balance the fact they can't wear boots (and why would they? Where they are from boots are obviously not required, the feet are probably tougher anyway, and with the khajiits they have claws), then you add another minor advantage.

I agree, so long as you don't have something like the Boots of Blinding Speed, which eventually became required to keep your sanity in your 12th playthrough of Morrowind, heh.

I actually never used them - but I take your point.
Then again, if quests had genuine multiple paths, additional play throughs wouldn't be so much of the same anyway. With MW I rarely complete the main quest - but I have had other characters progressing through the various guilds.
I think with OB (which I will get eventually) I will run with a few simultaneous characters - do a bit with each so you don't feel you are doing the whole main quest over and over again. Be interesting to see if there are any differences in how you approach the main quest with varying character types. Plus, the characters can explore individual guilds (never played a character type yet that realistically believed he could run all the guilds at the same time).

 

[Seboss]

My understanding was it was a true FORCED reload, kill the guy and you reload the game. I hear the decision to remove forced reloads came more from complaints from their beta testers than anything else. I still think if someone wants to screw up their game then that's THEIR problem . . . and it should bed allowe to happen.

-S

Actually, it's worse than that. Main quest related characters can't be killed (a la Lord British), only incapacitated. No forced reload but unslayable 'demi-gods' (although gods could be slain in Morrowind).

 

[Pr()ZaC]

It looks like shadows don't respond properly to light either, at least not in zee german video.
Look at the shadow that is being casted by Patrick Stewart, just before his speech; there's no light source in that section that can make the NPC cast THAT shadow.

 

[Sisay]

The Dark Suns had thrikeens, a sort of giant ant race (I'm not familiar with the setting outside playing the two games so don't laugh at me too much). No armor but they were able to hit more times in a round. Seemed to work better than my much stronger but slower half ogre brute. I, too, would rather see something else than the usual tolkienesque races with a few furries thrown in.

 

[Nog Robbin]

The Dark Suns had thrikeens, a sort of giant ant race (I'm not familiar with the setting outside playing the two games so don't laugh at me too much). No armor but they were able to hit more times in a round. Seemed to work better than my much stronger but slower half ogre brute. I, too, would rather see something else than the usual tolkienesque races with a few furries thrown in.

But when were these games written? Back in the day possibly when people accepted that some races wouldn't be as good at some things, or would have some limitations?
It seems the internet gaming community is now full of people demanding that they have everything with no penalties at all. Sad...

 

[Solik]

I really don't think people mind penalties. They just didn't like those penalties in particular. Possibly because they were unbalanced in that version, so they didn't want to risk them being unbalanced for that reason again?

 

[Astarsis]

So much for all that 'stealth gameplay' based on 'sneaking in the shadows'.

Keep putting all your eggs in that graphics basket, Bethesda!

I doubt *objects don't cast shadows* means all statics don't cast shadows. those can be dealt with easilly in an efficient way. But processing shadows from every fork as they are cast on every gold pieces lying on a table ? That would be quick efficient suicide.

Don't put more in Kathode words than he said. He's not a computer graraphic programmer. He wouldn't know all the details inside the engine.

I'm pretty sure that wall do cast shadows. It's easy to distinguish those. And massive objects as well. Just keep a separate list. If they don't do it... I'm at loss to defend them. It's easy stuff, really.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If they don't do it... I'm at loss to defend them.

Better late than never.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

The Dark Suns had thrikeens, a sort of giant ant race (I'm not familiar with the setting outside playing the two games so don't laugh at me too much). No armor but they were able to hit more times in a round. Seemed to work better than my much stronger but slower half ogre brute. I, too, would rather see something else than the usual tolkienesque races with a few furries thrown in.

Yup.

What Wikipedia has to say about them:

In the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game, the thri-kreen are an insect-like monstrous humanoid race. They possess six limbs, and usually use one pair for locomotion and the other two pairs as arms. They are formidable nomadic hunters who respect the land and hate creatures that despoil it. They have excellent physical capabilities, allowing them to jump great distances and avoid arrow attacks. They are also known to possess sharp claws, poisonous bites and psionic abilities. Thri-kreen have two signature weapons: the gythka, a polearm with a blade at each end; and the chatkcha, a crystal throwing wedge which returns when thrown. Thri-kreen are one of the primary player character races of the Dark Sun campaign setting.

Variant forms of thri-kreen include the civilized tohr-kreen (of which there are six subspecies), the mentally and physically altered zik-trin, the alien zik-chil, and the spacefaring cyborg xixchil of the Spelljammer campaign setting.

The thri-kreen race was first introduced to D&D in 1982 by Paul Reiche III for the second set of Monster Cards.

 

[Twinfalls]

I'm pretty sure that wall do cast shadows. It's easy to distinguish those. And massive objects as well. Just keep a separate list. If they don't do it... I'm at loss to defend them. It's easy stuff, really.

Observe this screenshot:

http://www.rpgcodex.com/screenshot.php? ... geon01.jpg

Notice the large shadows cast by the pillars.

Recall that Bethesda has said repeatedly: Only characters cast shadows now (in other words, those pillar shadows are GONE). But 'stealth is the same'.

And ask yourself:

1. Was their stealth system already so weak that those pillar-shadows had no impact at all on stealth calculations?

OR

2. Are they fibbing, and has the stealth gameplay changed for the worse?

It's one or the other.

 

[Voltare]

? i'm not understanding the shadows thing.All the engines i've used or demo'ed, the sun was a dynamic , shadow casting light.....you mean the sun can't make these pillars cast shadows? and therefore no buildings , either?What a crappy engine, or implementation of an engine then.I think they've had problems making the stealth SYSTEM work, not the hiding in shadows because there are now no shadows thing.

 

[dongle]

Lookie here: Oblivion shadows: before and after
Sheesh, maybe we need a Codex Shadow FAQ or something, cuz this is getting old explaining it over and over.

Wasn't that some wizard or another's horse, Shadowfaq? :D

 

[Srilankan Woodelf]

Bethseda has always had a problem with modelling decent character heads. If it's the same guys who did it from Morrowind, the despots must be beheaded. I could model..or "tweak facegen" far better with my asscheeks sown shut and in record speed.

But on the flipside, at least our demi-gods were kind enough to give us a way to get rid of their blunders with the construction set.

Rest of the vid looks awsome..some of that terrain was the best i've ever seen in a video game. the arena fight with the staff and the cheering was definitly the money shot for me.

For all the "faults" of their fighting system..the way the camera shakes and turns on impact was pretty cool.

I've got my seatless chaps ready for that woodelf, and (hopefully) my copy of the editor to make him look abit better.

Pisses me off when some jackass gets paid to model shite..and the godsent right here is still waiting in the shadows.

-----------------
"Scream for me.."
"Scream for you....well, if you insist..
AAAHAHAYTYYYYY!!!AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!"

 

[Lumpy]

When Bethesda said there would be forced reloads in Oblivion the fans kicked up a fuss and it was changed.

"Forced reload" being that deplorable situation when you stupidly kill someone (probably for no reason) that turns out to be relevant to the main quest?
So much for living with the consequence of actions.

How exactly was it a "forced reload"? Did it say "Yo! Dumbass! This person was required. Press a key to load last save.". Or was it an impled (thereby not forced) reload - as it was in MW (e.g. a message saying you screwed up - but you still have the chance to continue, just not completing the main quest)?

Forced reloads are necessary in a linear game. In a realistic situation, the Nerevarine would have defeated Dagoth Ur even if he killed the slave trader in Tel Aruhn. It would be a dumb consequence to screw the main quest just because you killed some loathsome NPC. Consequences should be realistic, and predictable. Killing Fyr, Yagrum Bagarn or Vivec have predictable consequences, since the player should be able to predict that he will need them later. Killing a slave trader shouldn't have any effect on the game.

 

[Nog Robbin]

I'm pretty sure that wall do cast shadows. It's easy to distinguish those. And massive objects as well. Just keep a separate list. If they don't do it... I'm at loss to defend them. It's easy stuff, really.

Observe this screenshot:

http://www.rpgcodex.com/screenshot.php? ... geon01.jpg

Notice the large shadows cast by the pillars.

Recall that Bethesda has said repeatedly: Only characters cast shadows now (in other words, those pillar shadows are GONE). But 'stealth is the same'.

I think they said characters and static objects (which pillars and building would presumaby be) cast shadows. It's just miscellaneous items (chains, bones, etc - basically items you can interact with) that don't have shadows any longer.

 

[Lemon]

Looks even more like an FPS once you see it in motion, combat looks interesting, similar to mount and Blade's. But yeah the elf dude's voice . . .

The combat animation isn't terribly smooth and its far too quick... actually worse than M&B and the voice acting :shock: