Preview Oblivion impressions at Gamers with Jobs

[elander_]

Ps. MSFD made a poor example of why ranged attacks are effective as he used several other things to put down his enemy, including a summoning!

They actualy expect you to be able to join all guilds and do all quests with a single character if you want to. MSFD choice was a tipical power-gamer custom class.

 

[kris]

Ps. MSFD made a poor example of why ranged attacks are effective as he used several other things to put down his enemy, including a summoning!

They actualy expect you to be able to join all guilds and do all quests with a single character if you want to. MSFD choice was a tipical power-gamer custom class.

They must have made the game harder if being a powergamer demi-god is the only way to use the bow.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, the way the "industry" works may be crooked, but there is also the fact of "different strokes for different people".

Which is why I ignore opinions like "Awesome!" or "Sucks!". Instead I look at explanations and details. So, if one previewer mentions that an NPC (goblin mage) ignored the fight that was happening 10 meters behind his back, that tells me that the system is fucked, and I disregard a guy (that quote you provided) who simply says he liked sneaking around and killing things without explaining shit. See my point?

Never go by a single review.

Never trust opinions, look at facts. :wink:

 

[Solik]

Depends on culture / army setup, but many professional archers carried short swords and were proficient in their use.

Lone archers should always have trouble in a face-to-face fight. This is patently obvious. In fact, if this were not true, I'm convinced that the same people in this thread would be complaining that they made archers "glorified melee characters" because the stupid people couldn't handle different roles for characters.

 

[Micmu]

Hey, in Oblivion, you CAN block melee attacks with bows (!).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Enough with the bullshit. First, real life concepts are absolutely irrelevant in gameworlds. Second, the concept of a ranged fighter has been in games for years, and I'm surprised at Bethesda's inability to come up with decent mechanics. I'm not surprised that you are jumping out of your pants to defend it though.

 

[Solik]

Nor am I surprised that you're grasping at straws to find things to critique.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What straws? Let's look at mages. The fact that it was hard/impossible to play a pure mage in MW was criticized a lot by people less biased that I am, including Bethesda developers. Why ranged fighters should be treated any differently?

 

[bryce777]

What straws? Let's look at mages. The fact that it was hard/impossible to play a pure mage in MW was criticized a lot by people less biased that I am, including Bethesda developers. Why ranged fighters should be treated any differently?

Well, to be honest I think it shows a more serious game balance problem than evenw hat you point out.

What it says to me is that you can't realistically choose one specific archetype to play and be successful in the game. In a balanced system someone who tried to do everything would not do too well at all of it, and might be able to scrape by but should not be inherently more powerful than someone who only uses magic or only uses melee' weapons or only uses a bow. They might be more flexible and able to get out of certain scrapes more easily, etc., but they should not be twice as powerful as someone who focuses on one thing.

If anyone is grasping at straws it's solik. The lengths people go to defend even the mildest criticisms of this game simply amazes me.

 

[LlamaGod]

I still dont understand why bow damage is dependant on dexterity.

 

[bryce777]

I still dont understand why bow damage is dependant on dexterity.

I would think that it would be because dexterity would allow you to aim better and therefore hit a more sensitive area instead of getting a glancing blow - keep in mind there is no 'to hit' so they have to account for aiming somehow.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What it says to me is that you can't realistically choose one specific archetype to play and be successful in the game.

I agree and I've already made that point, but it went over Solik's head, so I thought that a simple analogy might do it.

 

[LlamaGod]

Wouldn't dexterity just make you quicker?

Strength and the ability to hold the arrow correctly would make it more accurate. As for aim, I dont see how dexterity influences your eyes.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's another case of realism vs good design. Using Dex as the main and only attribute creates a different build (vs a "fighter, but with a bow" build), and avoid issues of unbalanced builds (like Arcanum's gunfighter vs melee fighter)

 

[bryce777]

Wouldn't dexterity just make you quicker?

Strength and the ability to hold the arrow correctly would make it more accurate. As for aim, I dont see how dexterity influences your eyes.

Dexterity is not speed. Dexterity is the ability to do precision work. You can either draw a bow properly, or not. The drawing is the hard part. Holding it is very easy compared to that because there is a sponge point where the tension is much less for various reasons which I will summarize by calling upon physics.

Dexterity is the opposite of clumsiness, so if someone is dexterous the have very fine control over their actions, which makes it an ideal attribute to control aim.

Now, obviously other things are a factor, too, but there is no depth perception attribute, or wind gauging ability attribute, etc.e tc. etc.

 

[LlamaGod]

It's another case of realism vs good design. Using Dex as the main and only attribute creates a different build (vs a "fighter, but with a bow" build), and avoid issues of unbalanced builds (like Arcanum's gunfighter vs melee fighter)

You can easily make high damage yet slow bows for warriors and then low damage but fast bows for rogues, as it should be.

 

[Oarfish]

Dex may be a good stat to influence accuracy of a bow, but damage limits should really be governed by strength. English longbows had a draw of up to 90 pounds and fired 27 inch arrows - not a subtle weapon.

Thats no need to screw up differential builds while still maintaining a modicum of realism - a stealth charcter would tend to use smaller, quicker weaponry than a fighter build.

 

[bryce777]

Well, actually a stealther would want to hit as hard as possible in one shot - like a modern day sniper.

I agree in an ideal world accuracy and damage should not be the same - for example if you hit a creature made of iron, the accuracy should make no difference if you have a short bow.

For a PnP game like DnD you absolutely have to simplify things, though.

For a computer game something like fallout's system is much better. I say like, as I don't mean that system exactly per se.

 

[Oarfish]

For a PnP game like DnD you absolutely have to simplify things, though.

Bah, I used to DM Rolemaster, nothing like those 15 minute combat rounds .

 

[Drakron]

You mean RollMaster ...

 

[Oarfish]

RollMaster

Indeed, had some of it automated with a dodgy Pascal program. Still ended up doing paranoia style arbitary rulings rather than crunch stupid ammounts of numbers.

Kind of defeated using the system in the first place, but all those lovely tables appealed to my inner autistic.

 

[bryce777]

For a PnP game like DnD you absolutely have to simplify things, though.

Bah, I used to DM Rolemaster, nothing like those 15 minute combat rounds .

Well I like to know if that orc is just dead, or really, really dead!

 

[Drain]

Any examples of a SP RPG, where ranged fighter is as effective as melee fighter? Should he be? I would rather have a game where different characters are more effective against different opponents(such as ranged characters are more effective against giant caterpillars). But its is always easier to produce a screwed system.
Edit:typos

 

[Claw]

Fallout being the only exception I can remember that did at least have fatalties, even if their system hardly was advanced.

It had called shots, crippling injuries and unconsciousness. A critical hit could topple a victim, which made it an easier target and cost AP for standing up. I't the most advanced system in any RPG I played.

 

[Solik]

What straws? Let's look at mages. The fact that it was hard/impossible to play a pure mage in MW was criticized a lot by people less biased that I am, including Bethesda developers. Why ranged fighters should be treated any differently?

Pure mages are a class composed of a large number of skills (not to mention being one of the three main archetypes). There is no such thing as a pure "ranged fighter." You could pick archery, an armor, armorer, and maybe athletics. That still leaves three skills, each of which would lean you towards either melee, magic, or stealth.

What it says to me is that you can't realistically choose one specific archetype to play and be successful in the game.

There's only three archetypes in the entire game system. As I mentioned in another thread, TES games go more for broad multiclassing with few archetypes as opposed to lots of archetypes and little multiclassing.

If anyone is grasping at straws it's solik. The lengths people go to defend even the mildest criticisms of this game simply amazes me.

The "lengths?" I mentioned a historical fact and made a single common-sense statement.