Review Oblivion reviewed by the Codex

[kingcomrade]

What swords were you looking at, dongle? The Romans were able to produce very clean looking swords that predate the medieval era, which still exist. European swordsmithing was every bit as technical and skillful as Japanese smithing. There's a pretty big popular myth about the differences between European and Japanese craftsmanship, mostly because the katana has been hyped nonstop for like the past 40 years into this super-duper ninja haxor volournhonourblade that can cut through cars and stuff.

 

[Drakron]

European swords were a bit ... blunt since the end up banging metal anyway.

"Samurai swords" are shit in that department, their cutting edge is good but because its designed to cut they chip and shatter pretty easy when they bang metal.

Kingcomrade is right over how they were overhyped into that idiocy when in fact they are shit unless they are made of using modern metal alloys but that is hardly fair.

 

[dongle]

What swords were you looking at, dongle?

Dunno, medieval swords. British or German I think. Was in London ten or so years ago. Hit every museum/castle/estate that had any kind of medieval weapons exhibit. Seen some in museums in NYC where I used to live, and as I said SF where I live now. Never been to Rome, like to someday. . . .

In my experience it's pretty darned rare to see anything on public display that's older than 1500 or so. I can categorically state that everyone I've seen in real life of European make looks as sharp as a tree-branch. Every Japanese sword that old looks flawless. The difference I'm describing is NOT subtle. It doesn't fully hit home until you stand next to them tho, pictures don't seem to convey the full story.

What have you seen from that era (or older) in person?

 

[Drakron]

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museu_Militar

They are keep in good condicion ... I understand why you get that idea because A LOT of swords are simply fused into the walls and end up like that, they are not funtional to say the least.

 

[dongle]

European swords were a bit ... blunt since the end up banging metal anyway.

I understand the difference between slicing swords and ones meant to poke through armor. Some of the ones I'm describing are old enough to not be designed to be used against full plate. It's not just the style or shape I'm trying to get across tho.

Maybe every museum I've been in puts the quality Japanese stuff on display, keeps the quality Euro stuff in the basement and displays the ones that look like farm implements? Because night and day doesn't do justice to the quality difference I'm seeing.

 

[Drakron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweih%C3%A4nder

Remenber one thing, the english are pussies that only gone to a world power with firearms so they dont show swords since it was from the times they were slightly better they are now (back then they were not a US state but their own country).

 

[dongle]

So, um, yeah, there are no exhibits or attractions with medieval themes in England? Christ on a bike, the country is teaming with the stuff!

I'm not trying to say my experience encompasses the entire history of melee weapons, or that it's by any means un-biased. Just that what I have seen of pre-1400 weapons the difference between east and west is striking. I saw photos of many of these actual swords in books before seeing them in real life. I didn't get a good feel for it until I stood before them in the flesh. So linking to pictures on the 'net won't change my mind, sorry.

 

[kingcomrade]

Linking to pictures isn't going to change your mind? Why not? Do you think that they are they faked?

My guess about the difference in quality is that the Japanese swords were showpieces passed down and maintained by their families as a family heirloom (as the samurai stuff started to die down in Japan, katanas started to be glorified in Jap culture, even though in their day they were secondary (tertiary?) weapons to the bow and arrow and the yari spear) while the Euro swords might be excavation pieces or something.

Anyways, I really have no idea what you are talking about. The only time I've run into arguments about difference in quality it's been based on stereotypes born from the katana's cult status.

I've seen a collection of gladi..uh, gladii? Latin plurals suck. Uh, well, those roman swords, and a pair of those longer roman swords, the spatha (two of the gladiuses were made from bronze, and both of the spatha, which was really cool). I lived in Japan for 3 years and visited a lot of castles (most of them were pretty small, like the size of a rich person's house and lawn here in Texas) and stuff so I know what you mean about the prettiness, but I've never been "struck" by any sort of qualitative difference with European swords that I've seen.

I've also seen a collection of Swiss stuff from the late middle ages. They were pretty famous for their two-handed swords, which they actually use a lot like short spears rather than swords. The ones I saw were pretty worn looking and a few of them were rusted, but they were excavation pieces. I was really more interested in the pikes they had (they only had the metal heads, but they'd reproduced the wooden shafts to give you a sense of size, those mofos were big)

Drakron-
European swords were not blunt, what gave you that idea? And katanas weren't shit, they just didn't have magical powers. They're still just sharp pieces of metal.

 

[dongle]

Linking to pictures isn't going to change your mind? Why not? Do you think that they are they faked?

I said why in the sentence just before that. Because I saw lots of photos in books before I ever saw any historical swords in real life, some of them from the same museum collections. The difference in quality between a katana and a European sword, both made in 1300, didn't really hit me until I stood in a room in London with both on display. I dunno why. Hard to believe the katanas I've seen are display pieces, they look fucking deadly.

Anyways, if you feel differently I can live with it. :D For me tho the difference was obvious at first glance. And I'm no Japanese cultist. Heck I -wanted- the knightly swords to be better.

Now, in the museums I've visited swords from the early middle-ages are very, very, rare. You'll get many swords from 1500, whole roomfuls from 1600, I saw swords from 1700 for sale in London market stalls for a few hundred pounds. I've only seen a scant few from 1300 or earlier. The quality does go up markedly for the later ones. Could be just luck of the draw for me. Could be because in Europe outdated weapons were cast aside as newer and better ones became available, and combat changed to reflect the increasing use of plate armor, then guns. Whereas, as you say, in Japan swords were handed down and lovingly cared for even when they became outdated.

How old was that Roman collection you mentioned? Where was it? I'd love to see it one day.

 

[dongle]

OK, after coming over all snotty about links to images, I'll link to some. :D Actually I shouldn't have said that, cuz I love looking at pictures of swords.

Anyhoo, here are two I can remember seeing IRL:

http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?feat ... otxv03.jpg
Wallace Collection, London. 1275(?)
This example is described as being "in pristine condition".

http://www.myarmoury.com/view.html?feat ... otxv06.jpg
Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York. 1450 or so.
Again, some pitting but "near perfect condition".

I understand, of course, condition could be considered relative to the usual Euro swords we find, and not on an ultimate scale. These certainly weren't dredged out of a river tho. Both are featured on this page about Oakeshott Type XV Swords:
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spotxv.html
Those are more of a stout stabbing/armor piercing type, rather than a thin lightweight slicing type. The type Drakron described. It's not the difference I'm getting at tho.

I couldn't find a photo of a Japanese sword I've actually seen IRL right off. Here's one katana from the 1300's tho:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tachi-p1000626.jpg
Yes, it's a better quality photo, I know. It is consistent with what I see, and am trying to describe. The Euro swords look like farm implements. The katana looks better crafted than the best high-end kitchen knife one can purchase today. Do you guys see that too, or am I imagining it?

 

[Azael]

I'm far from an expert, but I imagine that the difference would be mainly in the manner they've been preserved for the centuries. A sword from an excavation, or one that's been sitting in a basement for two hundred years, would look a lot worse than a priced family heirloom that's regularly cleaned and polished. From what I've read on the subject, high quality European swords were at least as impressive as their Japanese counterparts, they just didn't retain their status when other weapons rendered them obsolete.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Yes. The Europeans evolved and decided that upkeep on the family club from when we lived in caves was no longer necessary for us to consider ourselves real men. We grew bigger cahonas through the use of modern weaponry. Like toothpicks and decks of playing cards.

 

[Balor]

Damn, not that "katanas rulez, euro swords suck" BS again!
Katanas were very good at dismembering unarmored peasants, but very shitty against armor. Yea, they look good, but it does not mean that euro swords are much worse.

Anyway, I've already posted that, but I'll post it again:

thearma.org

Please read a few articles about the euro swords and katanas from there - and it was written by people who really used them, made them, researched them, etc.

 

[Zomg]

What is up with the katana vs. European sword argument coming up on the internet so often? I remember a few years ago, "I'm a martial artist, I know Kung Fu!" "Oh yeah! Me too!" used to come up with the same frequency, and then stopped for some reason.

 

[dongle]

thearma.org

Bah. That site sounds more bitter and biased than the Codex itself!

 

[Balor]

For same reasons.
As we are sick to death of seeing crap games being hyped as epitome of RPGayness... (pun intended), they are sick to death of stories of katanas being hyped (see "hype" article) as being able to chop thru concrete blocks and generally being "like lightsabers, only not glowy", while euro swords is considered "flattened blunt iron bars, weighting 40 pounds a piece".

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

The problem is preservation. Very few european swords of those early centuries have actually been preserved in suitable conditions, most we have are from archeological digs of burials, battlefields, etc., which is why most swords are blunt, pockmarked, or entirely corroeded.
The few early swords that survived intact are often more ceremonial in use, e.g. the Reichsschwert from the 12th century
http://www.michaelmaxwolf.de/mittelalte ... chwert.htm
Which looks pretty good, I think. Of course it is reasonable to assume that these were also the best examples of the craftsmanship of the time, and that many soldier's swords will have been inferior.
I know nothing about this, but considering the meaning and value that the japanese seem to attach to their swords, and also the relative political and cultural stability of this island nation have probably more impact on the amount and quality of old swords available then the mere craftsmanship. Nobody had stainless steel before the 19th century AFAIK...

 

[Section8]

It's beausec anyting jpnese is fkn awsome!!11!! Esp. cartons of litle kidz in big robots11!!!! (cept they ned to make more stuf with kidz ni big robotz!1!1!!!

Actually, that's not quite fair. Anime fans seem to be fairly literate, and skilled keyboard users to boot. They just don't quite get the concept that all forms of media have a minority of good stuff, and an awful lot of shite making up the bulk.

 

[Data4]

You really have to consider the whole mythos behind katanas. As with most everything meaningful in Japanese society, the katana has all sorts of spiritual symbolism attached to it. Hell, even the smithing of one could be considered a ritual, as all parts of the sword have some kind of meaning besides their utility.

Obviously, somewhere along the way, people started to blur the lines between reality and the symbolic. Sorta like the superhero-ization of ninja.

-D4

 

[Zomg]

I saw some little History Channel thing on samurai that posited that all the "spiritual warrior" honor-obsessed, peasant-beheading, intestine-spilling culture of samurai was a late thing that came about in the 17-18th centuries during the boring, peaceful Tokugawa shogunate when samurai had time to sit around jerking off, writing poetry and justifying their position as a priviledged warrior caste in peacetime. The samurai in the brutal periods when winning and losing were front and center were as pragmatic and soldier-minded as a Mongol or legionnaire.

 

[kingcomrade]

That's what I was saying. Katanas were not a samurai's primary weapon, the bow and arrow, and the yari spear were. Katanas after the samurai started to decline were venerated and glorified in Jap culture. That's why I was saying that they were family heirlooms in many, many families up until the time that after WW2 the Americans melted most of them down.

Dongle, I wasn't saying they were "showpieces" I was saying that they were family "treasures" that had been passed down as a point of family pride and kept well-maintained. European swords were almost all about functionality.

 

[dongle]

It's beausec anyting jpnese is fkn awsome!!11!! Esp. cartons of litle kidz in big robots11!!!! (cept they ned to make more stuf with kidz ni big robotz!1!1!!!

See, I can honestly say that when I first visited the Wallace Collection if you had said the word "Anime" to me I would not have understood what you were referring to. At that time I'd never been on the internet, nor played any computer games aside from in an arcade. Space invaders and Asteroids essentially. I had read a number of books on European arms, typically they had a far east section at the back with a few Indian sabers. At that point I did have some RL metal-working experience, welding bicycle frames, so I kinda knew what goes into shaping and polishing high-quality steel.

I was not at -all- pre-disposed to worship Japanese swords. Quite the opposite. As a huge Tolkien and King Arthur fan at the time I expected the knightly arms to be really cool. Instead the quality craftsmanship of the ancient katana jumped out at me.

And that's all I'm saying.

Lumping me in with Anime fans who think a katana can cut the Death Star in half with a single off-hand stroke kinda pisses me off. It's pretty far from what I said.

You really have to consider the whole mythos behind katanas. As with most everything meaningful in Japanese society, the katana has all sorts of spiritual symbolism attached to it. Hell, even the smithing of one could be considered a ritual, as all parts of the sword have some kind of meaning besides their utility.

Well, for whatever reason, they made better swords.

Maybe the owners valued their swords more highly, cared for them better, and passed them down rather then cast them away. Maybe the smiths felt more pride in the quality of their work, down to ritualizing it. Maybe they saw more value in something razor sharp, that would last for generations, when that was clearly far beyond what was needed. Maybe the Euro fighters were just as happy with a cheap fire poker. Cost less, easier to maintain, and enemies die just as effectively when poked with one. Why bother with craftsmanship? I can understand the passion and logic on both sides. I can understand that differences in fighting styles and defensive equipment meant different goals for the smiths. The why of it is interesting to discuss, but the fact remains that the ancient Japanese swords (that I've seen) are much nicer than their Euro counterparts.

Dongle, I wasn't saying they were "showpieces" I was saying that they were family "treasures" that had been passed down as a point of family pride and kept well-maintained. European swords were almost all about functionality.

You did use the word "showpiece" above, but whatever, I get your point.

Still tho, I find it an empty defense of shitty Euro swords. The smiths -could- have developed better crafted swords, if only they cared too. Sure, I'll concede that fighting styles, defensive equipment, and attitudes meant their market demanded cheap throwaway fire pokers. So that's what they made. Fine. The fact that this was the better battle strategy for their customers doesn't change the fact that they made cheap throwaway fire pokers. (I exaggerate the difference in quality there a bit :D )

Last time I went to McDonalds the guy at the grill -could- have made me a filet mignon with morel sauce and some fried waffle cut potatoes. He didn't tho, just a shitty burger with "special sauce" and fries. Do I hail him as a master chief based on what he -could- have made, if only he didn't work at McDonalds?

Clearly the perfectly formed katana is over the top for what's needed in the heat of battle. A Ferrari and a Volkswagen are both capable of a trip to the store to pick up a carton of milk. Does that mean I need to stop drooling over the design and craftsmanship that goes into a Ferrari when I see one in a store parking lot, because a VW could have gotten it's owner there just as well?

 

[Section8]

Lumping me in with Anime fans who think a katana can cut the Death Star in half with a single off-hand stroke kinda pisses me off. It's pretty far from what I said.

Heh, sorry about that. I wasn't actually intending for that to seem like a criticism of your response, I just wanted to see if my jibe on anime fans would derail the thread further. I've got a lot of mates who love anything Japanese, and I like to wind them up about it, so sorry if I came across as hostile.

 

[Data4]

@dongle- Yeah, I agree. I was just commenting on a possible way the whole "supa powah weapon katana!" deal evolved. For what it's worth, I'm a katana fanboy, myself.

-D4

 

[bryce777]

It's beausec anyting jpnese is fkn awsome!!11!! Esp. cartons of litle kidz in big robots11!!!! (cept they ned to make more stuf with kidz ni big robotz!1!1!!!

Actually, that's not quite fair. Anime fans seem to be fairly literate, and skilled keyboard users to boot. They just don't quite get the concept that all forms of media have a minority of good stuff, and an awful lot of shite making up the bulk.

Giant robots with katans. Now that's the ultimate. Katana bot seizure suicide squad, form up!!!!