Review Oblivion reviewed by the Codex

[Excrément]

"especially the Achilles vs Hector scenes (I think - the one where Hector dies)."

OMG SPOILERS!

yeah he ruined my movie.
that's why I never watched Titanic.

 

[sheek]

So if swords are inferior to spears why were they still made? Saint said something about the officers using spears and swords being left to the peasantry... Problem is swords are much more expensive to make than a spear. There's a lot more metal and a lot more craftsmanship going into it. It doesn't make any sense to produce them at all.

I think the answer is several things:

1/ the prestige of having a sword. Looks better, more expensive etc.
2/ it's a more convenient weapon for everyday life (you're not going to carry a spear around the town)
3/ and as I said originally, a sword on its own might suck against a spear but a sword & shield combo completely changes the situation. In group combats spears still win but one-on-one I think the spearman loses.

 

[mckracken]

You got that wrong Kingcomrade.

Iron is way more sturdy than bronze. The first iron weapons were deciding factors in battles.

This goes back as far as Hitties vs. Ramses II.

Also Ceasar mentioned in his war diary, that the, I think it was the Gaul's, periodically had to retreat in longer skirmishes to straighten their swords which would get bent out of shape rather quickly when confronted by the roman iron.

 

[User was nabbed fit]

rouge game reviewing websites

Oh no! Not rouge gaming websites! Only the mascara ones are worse!

 

[CorrodedCoder]

Welcome to the forums, CC. Always glad to have a good conversation.

Thanks!

My world was certainly rocked by DF anyway.

So was mine. However, Bethesda that made Arena & Daggerfall and Bethesda that made MW and OB are two different companies with very different design philosophies. I hope you realize that.

Yes - I've kindof followed thier changes over the years. I know Tedders still lurks in the ES forums (albeit doesn't work for Bethesda now), but I wonder what La Fey went off to do?

I have to say I've not found many games do really address that, and I've always assumed it to be for pragmatic reasons.

Yet there are games that did a great job there, so why settle for less?

I'm always up for game recommendations. Could you list a handful for me to seek out? Even if they only excel in that area.

If it's about immersion, then I guess games don't quite effect me like they do others.

Different people, different tastes, preferences, and expectations. Obviously, a casual gamer would have different gaming needs than a hardcore gamer.

See now - I've always considered myself a hardcore gamer. I've played almost any game that's ever mentioned RPG in the title (I think). Again, I suppose it's a little bit of a voyage of self discovery as to whether it's the RPG aspects which keep me hooked. Certainly of all the people I know, I'm one of the most into RPG kindof games (maybe I just don't know the right people!).

Strangely, I really couldn't get on with a few of the games in your top-ten, <snip>

Shame about Arcanum - one of the best role-playing games ever.

Maybe it's worth another try!

My only real complaint on your review is that I'd rather you hadn't setup PR quotes and then knocked them down, although for entertainments sake I understand why you did.

I didn't do it just for entertainment's sake alone. I think that developers' promises shouldn't be forgotten the moment the game hits the stores. People make purchasing decisions based on what developers told them, and if Gavin reassured people that becoming the top guy in a guild is totally awesome now, I think he should be reminded of that. Fallout 3 season is around the corner. Maybe now people would put less trust in what developers say.

I would have preferred your personal assessment on the game as it is - as you certainly have a different view to mine.

And I did that. I went over different aspects of the game, discussing them and making some references to what's been said in the past. I believe I described the gameplay and my description may give people a good idea of what to expect and what the game is like.

I hope I've explained what I meant now a little better in my previous post. I certainly respect your right to do things your own way.

As a dev who still has plans to turf out his own CRPG'ish game (my definition of one I'm afraid ;o) ) I find it useful to discover what makes a great game for other people.

Well done games make great games for other people. Making a game that you would want to play would get you there. So, do tell us about your project.

I'm afraid it's still very much in my mind right now - I've spent a lot of time considering and thinking about what I want to do, and I've concluded that I just need to start coding! I'm actually more into creating the framework for others to design the world around them (a little like the WorldForge project, but single-player). I'd like to allow a fusion of technology/magic (like Arcanum did I suppose). I find graphical dev work pretty boring, so it'll probably start out looking like

I've thought further about the kind of games I dig, and I'm starting to think I like fantasy/scifi adventure's with character development and open ended gameplay (whatever that means!).

Here's a list of a few memorable games I've played and enjoyed over the years.

Bard's Tale I, II & III (C64)
Dungeon Master(ST/Amiga/PC) and sequels - the grandaddy of all games for me!
Bloodwych(C64/Amiga)
Diablo (PC)
Dungeon Master 2 (PC) (not as good, but ok)
Eye of the Beholder I and II (Amiga/PC)
Daggerfall(PC)
Might and Magic 4 - 8 (PC) (was 9 the one where they changed it all?).
Lands of Lore 1-3 (PC)
Baldurs Gate (and sequels) (PC)
Diablo 2(PC)
Morrowind (PC)
Dungeon Siege (PC)
Fable (sorry!) (PC)
KOTOR (PC)
Oblivion (PC)

This is by no means an exhaustive list (I'm sure I've played a number of those SSI games) but certainly contains games that I've really found enjoyable to play.

I should mention that I'm a big fan of turn-based games

Why?

Err - I don't remember anymore! I'm afraid a whole day of sucky work has erased my short-term memory!

CC

 

[suibhne]

I'm ashamed I've played this game as much as I have. Each time I click on the icon, another little piece of me dies - yet I feel compelled beyond all human volition to see it through to the end.

It's like watching an 18-car pileup in slo-mo, replete with blood spatters and severed limbs.

As for the review, VD, I still don't get what you like about the dungeons. I've found a few that were wicked cool, but that's only a few out of maybe 40 I've explored. The hit percentage is pretty fucking low. We obviously just differ on this, but the dungeons strike me as basically being like everything else: really great for the first hour or two, and increasingly dehumanizing thereafter.

Maybe I was just younger and more naive, but Morrowind never brought me to the point where I hated life. Oblivion, I raise a toast to you!

 

[HoodRich]

Wow. Crossbows.

... uh anyways. Now for some more quotes from before. Back on page 3.

DarkUnderlord:
Why the bullshit? Why the lies?

What does it have to do with the final game? Yea those lies suck. But shouldn't they be discussed in another feature. You know, like not the full focus of the review.

It's the story which goes right through everything you touch.

That's exactly what I was talking about. It's not about getting the sword of whatever or free ingredients when you become the boss of the faction. It's about the story and playing the game up to that point. I haven't played oblivion yet so i don't know how the factions interact with each other and how their stories are, but I was saying that focusing on that would have been more worthwhile than saying the rewards suck.

Saint Proverbius:
Because crossbows have always been in Elder Scrolls games.

I just did a quick search and... no they weren't. They were only in morrowind. And as I understand it most of you guys don't like that game too much. Either way, from what I understand - and have seen - this game has wayyyy bigger problems than the amount of ranged weapons.

You can do lots of quests for lots of people around the world, why take the time to do the faction status crap when you could be doing quests from just Tom Farmer or Bob Shopkeep?

The factions usually represent sort of mini main quests and drawn out sub plots with multiple connections. When you beat a game you're usually given a cutscene. Closure. Sometimes they let you mess around in the game world, but this doesn't bring you a whole new story with tons more stuff to do and turning it into a whole other game alltogether.

Say for example you're given two factions. The ninjas and the pirates. You join up with the ninjas and play through a huge complex storyline that involves trying to gain dominance over the pirates and even changes the main storyline a little. At the end you see the results of the ninjas becoming the top faction and what happened to the pirates based on what you've done as a sort of closure to the storyline. Who cares if they give you a cool sword or free ingredients? You either had fun playing through the faction or you didn't, and no amount of perks will change that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

As for the review, VD, I still don't get what you like about the dungeons. I've found a few that were wicked cool, but that's only a few out of maybe 40 I've explored.

Well, at least there was something wickedly cool in the game, compared to the rest of the game. I visited about 20 dungeons, and frankly, I wasn't dying to visit more.

We obviously just differ on this, but the dungeons strike me as basically being like everything else: really great for the first hour or two, and increasingly dehumanizing thereafter.

No arguing here.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm always up for game recommendations. Could you list a handful for me to seek out? Even if they only excel in that area.

Based on your list, here are some games, old and new, to consider: Darklands, Wizardry 7 & 8, Ultima 4, 5 & 7, Ultima Underworld, Realms of Arkania 1 & 2, Fallout 1 & 2, Arcanum, Planescape: Torment, Gothic & Bloodlines (too much focus on action, but still good), ToEE (the best turn-based game in years), plus some indies: Geneforge, Prelude to Darkness, Avernum 3.

I'm afraid it's still very much in my mind right now - I've spent a lot of time considering and thinking about what I want to do, and I've concluded that I just need to start coding!

That's the best way to go about it.

 

[CorrodedCoder]

Based on your list, here are some games, old and new, to consider: Darklands, Wizardry 7 & 8, Ultima 4, 5 & 7, Ultima Underworld, Realms of Arkania 1 & 2, Fallout 1 & 2, Arcanum, Planescape: Torment, Gothic & Bloodlines (too much focus on action, but still good), ToEE (the best turn-based game in years), plus some indies: Geneforge, Prelude to Darkness, Avernum 3.

I'm afraid it's still very much in my mind right now - I've spent a lot of time considering and thinking about what I want to do, and I've concluded that I just need to start coding!

That's the best way to go about it.

Thanks that's a useful list for me - I missed out Avernum and Gothic II on my list. Any codex hopes for Gothic III?

I just noticed on the site that you're involved in a game idea yourself. Best of luck with that!

CC

 

[Lurkar]

Thanks that's a useful list for me - I missed out Avernum and Gothic II on my list. Any codex hopes for Gothic III?

Gothic III will be bigger then Jesus, and when Gothic III releases us from our sins, it'll be with awesomeness instead of crucifixion.

 

[HardCode]

It's good to include stuff against what the guys in suits said they would deliver against what they actually delivered, but it shouldn't be the entire focus. Marketing is marketing.

You're a fucking asshole. I am going to give you my name and mailing address so that for $59.99 you will get a game that will keep you entertained for hours on end, totally open-formed, and with unlimited possibilites. Then, I'll mail you one of those wooden paddles with the rubber ball attached. It's children like you that should be seen and not heard.

 

[Elwro]

Any codex hopes for Gothic III?

yes

 

[bryce777]

Have anyone fail at something in this game?

Well, thanks for your replies, I miss having to think and change strategies to fight different threats...it´s not happening in this game...I´m not powerplaying either...even with a level scaling system...I think it should challenge players more...

Real reviews or personal vendettas?

Poll:
Who do you trust for your information?

Unpopular and inexperienced rouge game reviewing websites 11
Popular and experienced game reviewing websites with professional reviewers 29
....

One of the replies: Popular and experienced game reviewing websites with professional reviewers they know what there talking about. And they play a lot of games so it's easier to compare.

Discussion at Evil Avatar

Name one RPG that does AI better.

Yeah I thought so...

These guys shoud learn how to program and then come back and bitch. People have no idea how hard it is to make a non-exploitable reasonably intelligent AI system that, at the same time, doesn't hog system resources.

And yes.. it is a f*cking game. If I want realistic AI I will go out with the guys for a beer or go to a party of *gasp* play a MMORPG.

Well, yeah, I know all about programming in general though I am not an AI master (which is meaningless anyhow, because in cases like this it's all semantics that matters)and could do much better than that and would expect much better from any student in a class I've taught. The sims has similar stye but much better done AI.

SO there. Take it from an expert, or as close as someone can be for programming.

 

[bryce777]

Iron is brittle but it is still very durable. Bronze is durable, but he is thinking of the difference between bronze and tin or something, I think.

 

[HoodRich]

You're a fucking asshole. I am going to give you my name and mailing address so that for $59.99 you will get a game that will keep you entertained for hours on end, totally open-formed, and with unlimited possibilites. Then, I'll mail you one of those wooden paddles with the rubber ball attached. It's children like you that should be seen and not heard.

Someone's feisty! Look... try reading what I said instead of attacking whatever crap your imagination came up with, ok?

It's good to include stuff against what the guys in suits said they would deliver against what they actually delivered, but it shouldn't be the entire focus. Marketing is marketing.

That's what i said. Did i say to embrace all hype as truth? No. Did i say to not mention that what was promised wasn't delivered? No. I have no idea what you're trying to argue here. Since you didn't even correctly read what i wrote.

It's children like you that make the internet such a beautiful place.

 

[kingcomrade]

Iron is brittle but it is still very durable. Bronze is durable, but he is thinking of the difference between bronze and tin or something, I think.

Iron deforms more easily than bronze, is what I meant, so it's harder to keep a sharp edge on your stuff. Steel, on the other hand, is better than both. In the Roman army, the rank and file used iron swords while the important people got bronze ones, and it wasn't ceremonial they actually were better weapons. Iron has always been available, it's just not as good as bronze.

 

[obediah]

VaultDweller:

I just put down mannimarco in my game at lvl 34, and I must say you were lucky to get him when you did. They fight didn't take nearly as long as tracking down the arrows afterwards - I fired several at him before I made my save vs illusion of freedom and realized I had to walk up to the guy before I could hurt him.

So I just killed some super-duper necromancer, that had the entire guild shitting their robes - I can't wait to get elbow deep in his stash, I mean this guy must have rings and an amulet for every conceivable occasion, right? Wrong, just a staff to raise corpses, like I need more things to try to shoot around. The damn level lists ruin the opportunity for the devs to really build a well equipped npc.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

It's good to include stuff against what the guys in suits said they would deliver against what they actually delivered, but it shouldn't be the entire focus. Marketing is marketing.

You're a fucking asshole. I am going to give you my name and mailing address so that for $59.99 you will get a game that will keep you entertained for hours on end, totally open-formed, and with unlimited possibilites. Then, I'll mail you one of those wooden paddles with the rubber ball attached. It's children like you that should be seen and not heard.

Plane tickets, bitch.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Good review Vault Dweller, you covered many of the important things about the game which were (un)surprisingly untouched by other reviews. Not going to spend money or time with this one.

 

[ou818]

Well, yeah, I know all about programming in general though I am not an AI master (which is meaningless anyhow, because in cases like this it's all semantics that matters)and could do much better than that and would expect much better from any student in a class I've taught. The sims has similar stye but much better done AI.

SO there. Take it from an expert, or as close as someone can be for programming.

Bethesda's RAI is closer to dynamic scripting/scheduling if you ask me.

Artificial intelligence is attributed to a system with intelligence seemingly comparable to that of it's user(s).

Now, take into account the geniuses over at the Elder Scrolls Forums.

Spend 5 minutes on the ESF and you quickly see why Bethesda's RAI comes across as such a monumental accomplishment.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

On spears, if you can keep someone at a distance while still being effective and able to kill someone then you've automatically got an advantage there...right from the xyston to the bill hook, halberd and pike. Not to mention a forest of glittering spears is awesome to look at in games and movies.

 

[Drain]

Not to mention a forest of glittering spears is awesome to look at in games and movies.

Well, if you gather all Oblivion NPCs together and give them spears, it may have a resemblance of a forest.
I guess that spears were cut due to limited animation budget.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Saint said something about the officers using spears and swords being left to the peasantry... Problem is swords are much more expensive to make than a spear. There's a lot more metal and a lot more craftsmanship going into it. It doesn't make any sense to produce them at all.

I think the answer is several things:

1/ the prestige of having a sword. Looks better, more expensive etc.
2/ it's a more convenient weapon for everyday life (you're not going to carry a spear around the town)
3/ and as I said originally, a sword on its own might suck against a spear but a sword & shield combo completely changes the situation. In group combats spears still win but one-on-one I think the spearman loses.

It's because an officer with a polearm can defend himself better against swordsmen. Object Software actually implimented that in their Fate of the Dragon game set in the Three Kingdoms era of China, which was the first time I'd seen a game actually have a spear using commander that could take out a half a dozen grunts.

Keep in mind that Chinese polearms were also a hell of a lot more complex than a metal point at the end of a stick. Even the more simple ones are basically broadswords with a long handle.

 

[Hazelnut]

On trying to explain role-playing computer games concepts to retards... (specifically in response to the statement "IT'S THE PLAYER'S JOB TO ROLEPLAY")

Oh really? I am very impressed you can create a game equal to Oblivion with notepad... Please post a link so we can stop playing this awful game

Rosencrantz:

Sure.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7527/notepad4pz.jpg

Here's a game where I roleplayed a mage. As you can see, the game offers me total freedom. I can do anything I want to do. I can roleplay anything I want to roleplay, and don't tell me it's got bad graphics or whatnot because IT'S THE PLAYER'S JOB TO ROLEPLAY LOLZ!

Edit:

Another game where I roleplayed a KNIGHT!

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/6248/note26vb.jpg

Godot: ...

This was priceless and I thought I'd pop it here for anyone not bored enough at work to be trudging though the crap at the ESF for shits & giggles....

(from http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=397047)

(posted now that the Codex has stopped having fits)

EDIT: Oh yeah, nice interview VD - it was good to see some promises and the resulting game compared. Which city is the disneyland one then?

 

[Justin Cray]

I guess that spears were cut due to limited animation budget.

Actually it is likely that spears are being coded right now as Downloadable Content.

cc: Crossbows.