Obsidian dev: not buying from Atari = death of CRPGs

[Lesifoere]

O rly:

Not buying MoW punishes you and probably Ossian in the long run.

This is definately one of those "cut your nose off to spite your face" threads.

 

[gromit]

The fact remains that the market for D&D games is on the PC, and if atari wants to make money off the license they will have to appeal to PC gamers.

The fact remains that the market for FPS games is on the PC, and (...) they will have to appeal to PC gamers.

Just for consideration.

DRM is quite ridiculous, and the only one I've ever heard to "work" breaks every twelfth user's optical firmware, has now been cracked, and only worked before in the sense that the steps to circumvent it were more of a pain in the ass then putting in the disc each time.

That said, it is Atari's ball, and yeah, if things get bad enough, they just might take it home (or to someone else's house.) Whether you can't wait for this game and are pissed that you have to wait longer, never cared to begin with, spout anti-piracy rhetoric all day long, or are an idealogue who would otherwise buy this game, this is still true, even if the entire situation sucks for you. However, every "publisher published" game for PC has fancy DRM these days. If the NWN community were to boycott this specific game en masse, I can guarantee you when they're trimming budgets, picking contracts, and dropping failures, nobody in the board room would refer to it as "that one with DRM."

One flopped expansion probably isn't going to bring the house down, and using scare tactics to say as much is fairly disingenuous (if this is how you read the message - it certainly at least skirts the idea.) However, on an objective level, reminding people that they are voting with their dollar and making a case for "pro-cRPG" needing representation a whole hell of a lot more than "anti-DRM" is fairly reasonable and accurate, and stating that the choice of priorities is up to the consumer isn't exactly a new and radical idea.

If I were a game dev, and had my fanbase threatening to boycott a (nearly?) finished game over a decision long since out of my hands - it's not like they can walk, resell, and get anything back for their manhours, this is an expansion for a licensed game - I'd probably be making a lot of casual implications myself.

 

[aboyd]

If I were a game dev, and had my fanbase threatening to boycott a (nearly?) finished game over a decision long since out of my hands - it's not like they can walk, resell, and get anything back for their manhours, this is an expansion for a licensed game - I'd probably be making a lot of casual implications myself.

I say, let them.

The game/expansion/whatever is long past overdue. Most people have uninstalled NWN2 and moved on. I stopped caring about it a while ago. Having my anticipation dashed time & time again got wearying. So I'm done, and I expect others stopped caring too.

So let the developers take their ball & go home. We stopped caring about their ball & game a while ago. It doesn't hurt anymore to think of them walking away in a huff.

Hey Ossian, you probably shouldn't have tied yourself to this bureaucracy. Sorry that you did. Hey Obsidian & Atari, we don't care about MoW anymore, so feel free to stop being defensive. You can just shelve it as expected, we won't be surprised. While I'm sure a few will care, the level of outrage at this point will be severely diminished, because fans & followers have disappeared over time.

Thanks anyway.

 

[murraysku]

Speaking of writing, I never understood why people who make NWN2 modules go through the effort of writing verbose pretentious descriptions of the landscape and setting. "You are standing in the middle of a vast forest, with a quiet isolation that gives you peace. A deer comes and the sun's light illuminates its tawny hide."

Ugh, neither is that good writing, nor is it necessary. Descriptions are for things that can't be shown in the game, and are necessary for the player to understand. It is superfluous when the game's engine is adequate for simply showing that thing, especially landscape. The main purpose of your game is to entertain foremost, and not to show off your verbose fancy phrases.

But either way, I don't think story or writing matters otherwise. If a module has fun combat, good quests, and well-designed areas, then it has everything needed for a good module.

I think my least favorite part of custom modules is the use of "localized" dialect or written accents. It's supposed to add character in the absence of voice acting, but almost invariably the writer doesn't have the skill to make it consisent or coherent. This is what kept me from finishing Subtlety of Thay and Dark Avenger.

 

[MLMarkland]

Some folks are getting apoplectic for no good reason.

Think of your gaming dollars as votes.*

If there is a game that you might be interested in due to content. but that game has what you personally consider unacceptable DRM, then you have a choice regarding how to vote with your gaming dollars.

If you refuse to buy product A because of the DRM, then you are voting against the DRM as your primary action, but you have the secondary effect of saying your objection to the DRM is more important than the content of product A. You say this by taking the above-described action because this must be inferred in order for your actions to be logical (we will ignore illogical actors).

In the specific context of PC games, DRM, rpgs, etc., a potential consequence of not voting for a product with gaming dollars because of DRM vis a vis voting against a product with gaming dollars because of DRM is that similar products will be less likely to be put into production by the people who fund game development (which is not, for the most part, independent studios, but rather large entertainment conglomerates and publishers).

When the consumer discourages DRM via their dollars (votes), the producer will seek to provide DRM-free products along the path of least resistance -- and in the current gaming environment the console is the path of least resistance to a DRM-free product because the proprietary platform itself operates as the guard against piracy.

*Shareholder votes is a more apt analogy than election votes since shareholders in a company have multiple votes based on the number of shares they own just like you have multiple gaming dollar votes. Troll disclaimer: Don't confuse an analogy to the voting procedures of shareholders in a corporation with a claim that people are shareholders in the games they buy, that is not what I am saying.

 

[Futile Rhetoric]

Some folks are getting apoplectic for no good reason.

Think of your gaming dollars as votes.*

If there is a game that you might be interested in due to content. but that game has what you personally consider unacceptable DRM, then you have a choice regarding how to vote with your gaming dollars.

If you refuse to buy product A because of the DRM, then you are voting against the DRM as your primary action, but you have the secondary effect of saying your objection to the DRM is more important than the content of product A. You say this by taking the above-described action because this must be inferred in order for your actions to be logical (we will ignore illogical actors).

In the specific context of PC games, DRM, rpgs, etc., a potential consequence of not voting for a product with gaming dollars because of DRM vis a vis voting against a product with gaming dollars because of DRM is that similar products will be less likely to be put into production by the people who fund game development (which is not, for the most part, independent studios, but rather large entertainment conglomerates and publishers).

When the consumer discourages DRM via their dollars (votes), the producer will seek to provide DRM-free products along the path of least resistance -- and in the current gaming environment the console is the path of least resistance to a DRM-free product because the proprietary platform itself operates as the guard against piracy.

*Shareholder votes is a more apt analogy than election votes since shareholders in a company have multiple votes based on the number of shares they own just like you have multiple gaming dollar votes. Troll disclaimer: Don't confuse an analogy to the voting procedures of shareholders in a corporation with a claim that people are shareholders in the games they buy, that is not what I am saying.

This translates roughly to "you'll eat our shit and like it, or we'll go to consoles". Sorry. Enough's enough, methinks.

Oh, and you should browse some torrent trackers sometimes. Console games get downloaded almost as much as PC games do. It's not that difficult to mod a console.

 

[Pastel]

When the consumer discourages DRM via their dollars (votes), the producer will seek to provide DRM-free products along the path of least resistance -- and in the current gaming environment the console is the path of least resistance to a DRM-free product because the proprietary platform itself operates as the guard against piracy.

Whereas on the PC DRM is necessary in order to stop piracy.
Come on, Monty, you're just another gamer, except recently turned developer. You know all of this is bullshit.

 

[toroid]

large entertainment conglomerates and publishers could abandon the PC and develop for consoles exclusively

Sounds like a good plan to me. Computer gaming could really benefit from a fresh start.

 

[MLMarkland]

This translates roughly to "you'll eat our shit and like it, or we'll go to consoles". Sorry. Enough's enough, methinks.

It doesn't translate to that at all. I'm not in charge of financing video games. I'm not telling you to accept a particular DRM. I haven't even stated my personal positions on DRM, PC gaming, or console development.

I'm simply describing the likely outcomes of certain behavior.

Here's what it does translate to: "If you don't buy bananas, it's less likely people will sell bananas." Whether protesting the pesticides used on the bananas or having the bananas is more important to you is a personal choice; the phenomenon I am describing (and Rob was originally alluding to) is just plain old microeconomics.

Getting angry about microeconomics is akin to getting offended by geometry.

Oh, and you should browse some torrent trackers sometimes. Console games get downloaded almost as much as PC games do. It's not that difficult to mod a console.

The barrier to entry for PC piracy is much lower than the barrier for entry to console piracy. It doesn't matter that it is not "difficult" to pirate consoles games; what matters is that it is "easy" to pirate PC games. The marginal difference in the barriers to entry for piracy on the different platforms contributes to the profit margin on products for the different platforms, and those are the sorts of calculations that financiers of product enter into when making decisions.

Come on, Monty, you're just another gamer, except recently turned developer. You know all of this is bullshit.

I'm not suggesting that I am a fan of DRM. I'm simply elaborating on what I understood Rob to be alluding to in his posts, which was then misinterpreted by some people.

I don't like DRM, personally. If Purgatorio had become a commercial product for Rogue Dao, I would've insisted on it being DRM-free.

 

[Naked Ninja]

You guys are idiots. Yes, not buying an RPG is more likely to send a message to Atari that there isn't a market for a game type than that you're angry with DRM.

They aren't mindreaders. So when they read their graphs and see "oh, look, this game didn't sell" they are going to go with the default assumption, that it didn't sell because people didn't like it/games of that type. And choose not to invest more money into similar games.

If you believe they will think "well, it must be the DRM" you're deluded. And haven't been paying attention. Despite law suits and massive internet temper tantrums, Spore is selling like hot buttered sex.

They're just going to assume the market isn't there. And focus on other markets, like the casual market Spore targets, which is hugely lucrative.

 

[Black]

HEY OBSIDIAN DEV HOW ABOUT YOU CONVINCE FUCKTARDS AT ATARI TO MAKE A GAME THAT FULLY USES D&D MECHANICS, OH I DONT KNOW, LIKE TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL, YOU KNOW, TURN-BASED AND ISOMETRIC AND SHIT. A GAME THAT NOT JUST USES D&D BUT IS CENTERED AROUND D&D.
OH AND FUCK YEAR CAPSLOCK, OTHERWISE OBSI DEV WON'T READ IT

 

[Pastel]

You guys are idiots. Yes, not buying an RPG is more likely to send a message to Atari that there isn't a market for a game type than that you're angry with DRM.

That's already been said and that wasn't the point of the thread, dumbfuck.

 

[LCJr.]

If you go to consoles I'm sure there's someone else waiting on the sidelines who'd be happy to have your share of the PC market. Supply and demand right? If there's a demand for CRPG's on the PC someone will supply it.

As for DRM I don't see why the major publishers insist on going with such intrusive measures like the new SecuRom. They don't stop piracy and may even encourage it, see SPORE. So why penalize your paying customers?

 

[Futile Rhetoric]

This translates roughly to "you'll eat our shit and like it, or we'll go to consoles". Sorry. Enough's enough, methinks.

It doesn't translate to that at all. I'm not in charge of financing video games. I'm not telling you to accept a particular DRM. I haven't even stated my personal positions on DRM, PC gaming, or console development.

I'm simply describing the likely outcomes of certain behavior.

Here's what it does translate to: "If you don't buy bananas, it's less likely people will sell bananas." Whether protesting the pesticides used on the bananas or having the bananas is more important to you is a personal choice; the phenomenon I am describing (and Rob was originally alluding to) is just plain old microeconomics.

Getting angry about microeconomics is akin to getting offended by geometry.

This is not a very convincing argument. You are treating this although everything is a given, as though the men upstairs get no feedback on what is actually going on. If you aren't selling poisonous bananas, it should at one point or another dawn on you that the reason you aren't selling any is due to the pesticides. If not you, then someone else. It is not as though it is impossible to release games without DRM, just like it isn't impossible to grow non-poisonous bananas.

If Atari's dimwitted management wants to find out why they'll have sold fewer copies of MoW, the answer is simple: "Uh, you kept delaying the game to implement a DRM scheme that people hate in the first place". If they do not get this feedback, then someone isn't doing his job right (granted, there is a lot of that going around). If they do, and they draw the wrong conclusions -- we'll live. This, too, is (micro)economics: someone will fill the gap.

Again, your banana argument is exactly this: there is no way for you to get rid of the poison in our bananas. You'd better eat them and shut up, or there will be no more bananas for you cunts.

The barrier to entry for PC piracy is much lower than the barrier for entry to console piracy. It doesn't matter that it is not "difficult" to pirate consoles games; what matters is that it is "easy" to pirate PC games. The marginal difference in the barriers to entry for piracy on the different platforms contributes to the profit margin on products for the different platforms, and those are the sorts of calculations that financiers of product enter into when making decisions.

It is easy to pirate a console game if your console is modded. Modding a console is cheap and painless, and certainly isn't any more difficult than setting up a PC.

 

[The Vanished One]

Can someone in the know fill me in on the whole business with the 1.14 patch and the DRM apparently delaying MoW? Sorry, but although I own both NWN2 and MotB, I've never visited the boards.

 

[MetalCraze]

If you go to consoles

Hello?
Both Alpha Protocol and Aliens RPG are console games. KotOR2 was even a console exclusive for 3-4 months. WTF is this thread about?
It's like crying the Bioware will make shit games because EA bought them when in reality nothing really changed.

 

[Texas Red]

large entertainment conglomerates and publishers could abandon the PC and develop for consoles exclusively

Sounds like a good plan to me. Computer gaming could really benefit from a fresh start.

Concur. The last games I had interest in were The Witcher, King's Quest, MotB and SoZ. 2 of them were "last gen" and from Eastern Europe, the others just expansions. I really don't care if those "AAA" generic FPS developers or Molyneux completely abandon PCs because frankly they have been only stagnating and declining gaming. I also don't care if Alpha Protocol developer Obsidian goes to consoles. Maybe then someone that actually makes FUN combat and gives me a chance to play with no lag will move in.

 

[aboyd]

This translates roughly to "you'll eat our shit and like it, or we'll go to consoles". Sorry. Enough's enough, methinks.

It doesn't translate to that at all. I'm not in charge of financing video games. I'm not telling you to accept a particular DRM. I haven't even stated my personal positions on DRM, PC gaming, or console development.

I'm simply describing the likely outcomes of certain behavior.

And you come off like you want to affect certain behavior by describing the outcomes as if they are consequences or punishments.

But hey, you know what? Let's take your (or whoever you're speaking for) position as just the neutral observation you claim it to be. My response? OK. Leave.

I'm tired of publishers forcing DRM. I'm not buying -- especially not for some outdated, overrated game that should have been delivered a year ago. So if publishers/developers want to say, "Well then we're leaving the RPG market," my response is that we've come far enough now that I'm fine with that. Leave the market. Good bye. We'll go buy stuff from other companies that are not as stupid.

OK? Take your self-fulfilling prophecy and make it happen. Get out of the market, all those of you who threaten to. Bye.

 

[Starwars]

Can someone in the know fill me in on the whole business with the 1.14 patch and the DRM apparently delaying MoW? Sorry, but although I own both NWN2 and MotB, I've never visited the boards.

MoW was basically finished sometime last year. Since then MoW has constantly been delayed because Atari wanted to make some kind of DRM thing (which will apply for other digital downloads of theirs in the future). This DRM system will be in the 1.14 patch, and last I heard it was in testing. After 1.14 is released, it will hopefully not be long before MoW gets out, though at this point it wouldn't surprise me if there is another fuck-up along the way (download servers or whatever).

Unless the DRM scheme is truly horrid, I'll likely be buying it since I think it'll only cost about 10 bucks or something. I seem to recall people in the NWN2 chat room talking about how the system would require the user to be online the firsttime when starting the game up, but that it'd work off-line after that (unlike the NWN1 premium mods). If that's the case, it's fine by me though I still think it's a losing battle for PC developers with all the DRM nonsense.

 

[The Vanished One]

Thanks
And btw, the DRM doesn't affect NWN2 & MotB... right?

 

[Starwars]

From what's been said, no. And SoZ will use the same DRM stuff that NWN2 and MotB has right now I believe.

 

[Futile Rhetoric]

...the same DRM stuff that NWN2 and MotB has right now...

MotB release date: September 27 2007 (in the EU; the US and Australia release dates were later).
MotB crack release on the internets: September 27 2007.

Money spent on DRM: >0
Pissed off customers: >0
Pirates stopped: 0

Seems to me like the only people who win in all this are the companies that design the actual DRM.

 

[racofer]

^ won the thread.

 

[The Feral Kid]

Then I project/guess the end result is that D&D games on PC will no longer occur, cutting out this displeased community.

Personally, I like my RPGs on the PC. But, if the market is no longer here then, if I was Atari, I would shift my target market.

Consoles are a much lower-cost platform to develop for since you don't have to worry about compatibility or DRM.

TRANSLATION: I'm entitled to treat the "displeased", desperate but eventually insignificant minority of pc rpg players as my flock and order them around to buy my games cause you depend on me and need me if you want to give meaning to your miserable lives for 5-10 hours (depends on how you play it) every once in a while, and you should buy it as a token of appreciation for taking time to create the game for all you slimy nerds. If my petty 5-hour-long-mod-trying-to-sell-as-a-standalone-game won't do well then you say goodbye to pc rpgs forever suckaaaaaaaaaaass!!!!

 

[gromit]

didn't want game anyway

I'd never even heard of this expansion, so maybe I'm lacking perspective / backstory / drama. Honestly, though, at least I understand the nature of context enough to realize that I may be missing some.

Note that this message was directed towards those who are apparently making up their mind based solely on this (or at least those who purport to.) If someone wasn't planning on buying it before that post/response, there's no point in trying to convince them to buy it now that it's further delayed / has DRM. Anyone who was still around to pitch a fit had yet to stop caring, and I'd think it wouldn't hurt to point out to those who are / were still interested (who must be pretty hard-up for this game / games like it to have stuck around, from what you hint at) that the path from "Ossian game flops" to "no more Ossian" is a much straighter one than "FO:BOS flops" to "no FO3," regardless of if you approve, disapprove, or don't care.

No developer is putting up an ultimatum (even if there is an implicit one from the publisher) to leave the market out of spite if you don't "eat their shit," they are saying that if their games don't sell, they will not be able to make more.* The most I can find to disagree with about this statement is that it's so self-evident a concept that it barely merits saying on its own, but for the circumstances involved. It's utterly ridiculous for diehards who stuck around through a year of delays to let this be the deciding factor.

DRM, which is an industry-wide problem, is being fought against over a game which is the first professional outing from a new developer, in a shrinking niche of an endangered genre, by its dwindling ranks of fandom (I mean MoW fans specifically, not cRPG fans in general.) I wonder if the phrase "time and place" means anything to them.

*Yes, "GOOD! I am righteously frothing with detached and objective apathy about this game!" (I'll admit I may be, too, okay?) I don't give a shit about this game either, but the devs weren't writing to you or me, because between the two of us we a) didn't even know about this game b) already decided not to buy it, and therefore are both very unlikely to have had our decisions swayed by the single issue which said message addresses. Should we subscribe to newspapers from small foreign towns and then write letters to the editor about relevance?