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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Xeon

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Nice, Thank you!!
 

Copper

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Yeah, annoying as the conservatism inherent in Eternity's design is, I've first hand experience of how original ideas become watered down or abandoned in an effort to become more mainstream, and fantasy fans are a conservative lot, often extremely so. They've done a fairly good job of at least trying to say something new and expand the stiffling constraints of the genre.
 

Roguey

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"Conservative" isn't what I'd call Eternity given all the grognard-angst.
 

Copper

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"Conservative" isn't what I'd call Eternity given all the grognard-angst.
I take it he means setting/tone and not mechanics
Absolutely - eliminating the weakest links like half-orcs and hobbits halflings and replace them with burly tentacle heads and hairy-all over short people is pretty damn conservative, as is sticking to a straightforward feudal society, etc. Unless you think Dragon Age was some radical 'New Shit' in terms of fantasy.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
sticking to a straightforward feudal society, etc..

Actually, detailing the exact socio-economic arrangements of society is something that's pretty alien to the spirit of D&D. You might encounter "farmers" and "lords" but there's little idea of their legal obligations and privileges.

Serfs? Tenant farmers? Yeomen? Feudalism? Absolute monarchy? You don't really have a clue.
 
Last edited:

Athelas

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You mean like the NWN2 OC? :troll:IIRC it went into quite a bit of detail with how Nasher ran his kingdom and the rights of the citizenry (the trial). And the stronghold was all about managing relations with nearby farmers and merchants (of course, you didn't actually ever see them).

Besides, the real problem is that these settings, no matter how historically accurate, are working with a flawed base. Fantasy shouldn't be 'medieval/renaissance...but with elves and dwarves!'. It should be, well, fantastical.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
NWN2 OC - exception that proves the rule. :smug: It wasn't really all that detailed, although it was more detailed than the usual D&D game.

Besides, the real problem is that you're working with a flawed base. Fantasy shouldn't be 'medieval/renaissance...but with elves and dwarves!'. It should be, well, fantastical.

What do you mean by "fantastical"? It sounds contrary to J.E. Sawyer's aspie geek "putting things under the microscope" approach.

It is the Christopher Nolan method applied to roleplaying fantasy - flesh out the lore and create "realistic"/detailed explanations for cherished genre conventions.
 

Copper

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sticking to a straightforward feudal society, etc..

Actually, detailing the exact socio-econiomic arrangements of society is something that's pretty alien to the spirit of D&D. You might encounter "farmers" and "lords" but there's little idea of their legal obligations and privileges.

Serfs? Tenant farmers? Yeomen? Feudalism? Absolute monarchy? You don't really have a clue.

Yeah, sure, until you actually have a setting book that makes it clear - Dark Sun, Eberron etc make it abundantly clear what the social organisation is like, because it's important to adventure seeds. Of course, in most settings you get 'Mildly Medieval', just like Mass Effect has fuck all to do with actual military organisations.
 

Athelas

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What do you mean by "fantastical"? It sounds contrary to J.E. Sawyer's aspie geek "putting things under the microscope" approach.
Fantastical = mundane. In the NWN2 OC (and plenty of other RPG's) there's a graveyard map with hostile zombies raised by a shadow priest. In PS:T, zombies are non-hostile corpses from people who signed up to be raised for labor after death, like organ donors. The latter is both more fantastical and more mundane.

It is the Christopher Nolan method applied to roleplaying fantasy - flesh out the lore and create "realistic"/detailed explanations for cherished genre conventions.
Nolan is a hack, but that link talks about making something like Batman work in what could ostensibly be our world - not creating a whole new fantasy world. As for genre conventions, some of them can be used in interesting ways and some are just terrible.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
that link talks about making something like Batman work in what could ostensibly be our world - not creating a whole new fantasy world.

And traditional D&D fantasy worlds are obviously based on what our world used to be like. Sawyer is a history geek and a Darklands fan and this was to be expected.

In the NWN2 OC (and plenty of other RPG's) there's a graveyard map with hostile zombies raised by a shadow priest. In PS:T, zombies are non-hostile corpses from people who signed up to be raised for labor after death, like organ donors. The latter is both more fantastical and more mundane.

More fantastic? Seems about equally fantastic to me.

But uh, okay! Sounds like the type of thing they seem to be aiming for in this game. What's the argument about, then?
 

Delterius

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In the NWN2 OC (and plenty of other RPG's) there's a graveyard map with hostile zombies raised by a shadow priest. In PS:T, zombies are non-hostile corpses from people who signed up to be raised for labor after death, like organ donors. The latter is both more fantastical and more mundane.

More fantastic? Seems about equally fantastic to me.

His argument seems to be that there are settings which are pretty much mundane with occasional appearance of magic and others which are truly fantastic, where magic is taken to amazing extremes. In any case, no comparison between Planescape and Forgotten Realms should conclude that they are equally fantastical.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
In the NWN2 OC (and plenty of other RPG's) there's a graveyard map with hostile zombies raised by a shadow priest. In PS:T, zombies are non-hostile corpses from people who signed up to be raised for labor after death, like organ donors. The latter is both more fantastical and more mundane.

More fantastic? Seems about equally fantastic to me.

His argument seems to be that there are settings which are pretty much mundane with occasional appearance of magic and others which are truly fantastic, where magic is taken to amazing extremes. In any case, no comparison between Planescape and Forgotten Realms should conclude that they are equally fantastical.

Of course, but he was talking about a specific, out-of-context example, not about the settings in their totality. Both examples involve people being raised from the dead, and that is their sole "fantastic" element that they both share.

Actually, the NWN2 example mentions a "shadow priest" which sounds more fantastic, but if he'd mentioned the Dustmen that would be alleviated perhaps.
 

Delterius

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In the NWN2 OC (and plenty of other RPG's) there's a graveyard map with hostile zombies raised by a shadow priest. In PS:T, zombies are non-hostile corpses from people who signed up to be raised for labor after death, like organ donors. The latter is both more fantastical and more mundane.

More fantastic? Seems about equally fantastic to me.

His argument seems to be that there are settings which are pretty much mundane with occasional appearance of magic and others which are truly fantastic, where magic is taken to amazing extremes. In any case, no comparison between Planescape and Forgotten Realms should conclude that they are equally fantastical.

Of course, but he was talking about a specific, out-of-context example, not about the worlds in their totality. Both examples involve people being raised from the dead, and that is their sole "fantastic" element that they both share.
His argument is only sound when you take these worlds as a whole. Being raised from the dead is a world-wide system which is a regular part of Sigil's ecosystem; being raised from the dead in the Forgotten Realms area we see in the NwN2 OC is a distortion of every day life, one which the Hero is meant to destroy.

The issue I see with his example is that it doesn't take into consideration that the Forgotten Realms is a more diverse place than the Sword Coast from BG or even the Neverwinter proper. Taken into its contest, even the latter is quite amazing given that its supposed to be a lush area in the middle of the Frozen North. Furthermore, let us not forget the banality of phantasms we got to witness in MoTB. If anything, this kinda reminds me of the Dragon Age setting, with much more interesting places to explore (in theory) than BioWare has, so far, cared to. Ferelden was, for the most part, bore Hell compared to what Tevinter and Seheron are supposed to be.

Still, I can't argue that Forgotten Realms has a tendency to preserve the mundane as a counterpoint to the fantastical; whereas Planescape is madness incarnate.
 
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Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
In the NWN2 OC (and plenty of other RPG's) there's a graveyard map with hostile zombies raised by a shadow priest. In PS:T, zombies are non-hostile corpses from people who signed up to be raised for labor after death, like organ donors. The latter is both more fantastical and more mundane.

More fantastic? Seems about equally fantastic to me.

His argument seems to be that there are settings which are pretty much mundane with occasional appearance of magic and others which are truly fantastic, where magic is taken to amazing extremes. In any case, no comparison between Planescape and Forgotten Realms should conclude that they are equally fantastical.

Of course, but he was talking about a specific, out-of-context example, not about the settings in their totality. Both examples involve people being raised from the dead, and that is their sole "fantastic" element that they both share.

Actually, the NWN2 example mentions a "shadow priest" which sounds more fantastic, but if he'd mentioned the Dustmen that would be alleviated perhaps.

The difference I see is that in the world of the shadow priest, his necromancy is still something outside the norm. The day to day life of the world is something not too far away from that of our own hundreds of years ago. This mundane life is threatened by intrusion of the zombies and the heroes will eliminate the threat by removing the zombies. So the fantastical elements are in conflict with the non-fantastical elements. In the planescape version, the zombies are part of the mundane world, making the mundane itself fantastical.

ETA: ninja'd by Delterius, that jerk
 

Roguey

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You can go to a priest and pay them to resurrect your dead party member for a fee in the Forgotten Realms. :M

PoE is "conservative" when it comes to setting because they pitched a spiritual successor to a series of games where all but one took place in the Forgotten Realms. Jeez is it 2012 in here or what
 

Aeschylus

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I think people would call it 'conservative' based more on the laser focus on balance, and the apparent disinterest in being experimental, rather than on the setting. But maybe I'm misreading things.
 

Abelian

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I found another example of architecturally unsound arches that break game immersion.

arcn001_zps8403d0fd.jpg

arcn002_zpse23deaf0.jpg

:troll:
 

Roguey

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I think people would call it 'conservative' based more on the laser focus on balance,
There's nothing conservative about this.

and the apparent disinterest in being experimental,
What does being experimental involve?

But maybe I'm misreading things.
You're contradicting two posts made on this very page, yes.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...project-eternity.75947/page-1116#post-3128377
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...project-eternity.75947/page-1116#post-3128421
 

Copper

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I found another example of architecturally unsound arches that break game immersion.


WTF, they're all intact...
:troll:

By the way, I was actually praising Obsidian for doing something a bit more interesting with their Forgotten Realms fan-fiction inspired setting than Bioware managed to come up with in Dragon Age. I believe their next Kickstarter will be for something a little less slam-dunk, if the Eternity feedback is largely positive.
 

Roguey

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The Black Hound would have been Josh's FR fan-fic.
Josh said:
When I came to Black Isle, the majority of the studio was working on Planescape: Torment. I was the webmaster for that project, but I desperately wanted to work in development as a designer. I had spent a huge amount of personal time in the 90s playing 2nd Edition AD&D in the Forgotten Realms. Working on Icewind Dale was a dream come true. Yeah, the game had a smaller story focus, and yeah, it didn't have companions, and yeah, and was linear and dungeon-focused, but I was making a real AD&D video game in the Forgotten Realms.

Icewind Dale II is the first game I was credited as lead designer on, but I was the lead designer on TBH first. I felt that the Dalelands, bordering on the Moonsea, presented a cool subsection of the Realms and a crossroads of cultures that would be interesting to explore. We could build a personal story, focused on how you fatefully intersected the life of someone hell-bent on doing something crazy. Like many Realms adventures, this wasn't a world-shattering event, but something locally catastrophic, like Moander appearing near a town and devouring a huge swath of the landscape. It's just one of those crazy Realms stories where bands of adventurers and the Cult of the Dragon start throwing fireballs and leveling villages while the townsfolk run for cover.

Some people have suggested that I hate high fantasy or want to subvert high fantasy. Neither of these are really true. I just don't like how most stories handle high fantasy: both too seriously and not seriously enough. Too seriously in the sense that a lot of fantasy conventions are considered so sacred that you can't touch them (or even question them). Not seriously enough in the sense that the scenarios and the characters don't feel like they tackle the obvious questions raised by the settings they're placed in.

As an example, the Red Wizards of Thay (an FR magical organization/magocracy) underwent a transformation between 2nd Ed. and 3E. They became a "kinder, gentler" trading nation forming magical mercantile enclaves in lands that would let them in. The thing is, 2nd Ed./3E Red Wizards probably look pretty weird to Cormyreans and Dalesmen. They shave their heads (including the women), speak a different language, and have a lot of magical tattoos. They're also darker-skinned. After a few centuries of being regarded as pariahs everywhere west of the River Sur, they show up in these places and are doing business -- questionable business -- in broad daylight.

The FR designers did something interesting in shifting their MO between 2nd Ed. and 3E. The not interesting thing to do (IMO) with that shift as a scenario or story designer would be to have a pack of bad guy Thayans in an enclave with the good guy locals saying, "Those darn Thayans are up to something, please help us, heroes." I was intrigued by the idea that a Thayan enclave could contain a "new guard" of diplomatic Red Wizards and an "old guard" of fireball-hurling hardasses who aren't allowed (or are discouraged from going) outside. Some of the new guard genuinely want to mend fences. Others simply want to use it as a way to re-establish safe power centers and observation posts in lands where they previously would have been killed on sight.

The new guard use concealing/lightening makeup, don wigs, and wear "western" clothing to fit in. The old guard chafes at having to conceal their heritage and suffers under the jeers and slurs of locals if they dare to appear in public. The new guard speaks with good and proper "Common" grammar and pronunciation, not stumbling over foreign sounds and linguistic concepts. I thought it would create a more interesting and nuanced relationship between the Thayans, the Dalesman, and those who interacted with them, lending sympathy to the traditionally "villainous" and creating a more agonizing struggle between the sub-factions of the Thayans.

An old evil wizard who strokes his beard and cackles as he unleashes chain lightning on random townsfolk isn't particularly sympathetic. But suppose he were a veteran Red Wizard who watched his fellows succumb over the years in service to the zulkirs and was forced to "step aside" as young diplomats smooth talked their way into trade relationships with their former enemies. He has to endure the insults of locals, hear them mock his clothing, his pronunciation, his skin, his culture. And when he expresses his frustration to his new (younger) "superiors", he's treated like an anachronism, an old artillery cannon left to rust and rot on a forgotten battlefield. That dude may still wind up casting chain lightning on townsfolk, but if we weave a compelling story around him, the player should feel that there's more to him than that.

I've been rambling here a bit but let me get back to the main point: The Black Hound wasn't really *~ sUbVeRsIvE ~* "this ain't your daddy's RPG!" fantasy. It had elven ruins and fire genasi and Ilmaterian paladins and Maztican sorcerers and crypts full of undead -- all the stuff that made the Forgotten Realms the crazy blend of hardass adventurer-heavy, gods-mess-with-things, cults-and-dracoliches-under-this-rock D&D fantasy it always has been. I, and I think we all, just tried to approach the world with open eyes, asking, "Okay, so let's suppose all of this stuff about the Realms is true. What does that really mean for how the people in it live their lives?" It made the world more dark and grim, and sometimes that consideration wound up bucking convention, but we didn't set out to invert fantasy conventions just for the sake of doing it.

I regret that the team wasn't able to complete The Black Hound, and not just because of the time and passion we all invested in it. Some of my best tabletop RPG (and CRPG) memories come out of the Forgotten Realms. Huge, crazy, "how many more Volo's Guides can there be?" Forgotten Realms. I think those scenarios were memorable because the DMs/designers made compelling scenarios and the players gave a damn about each other and what was going on. If you take fantasy for granted, yeah, no one's going to get much out of it. I don't think we took anything for granted. We had an opportunity to make something that celebrated high fantasy without being enslaved by its conventions. In retrospect, there are a bunch of personal design choices I look back on and cringe at, but I don't regret the time I spent on it at all. When you enjoy the process of making something that much, it's hard to consider it time wasted. We had a lot of fun while it lasted.
Though I suppose PoE is to TBH what New Vegas is to Van Buren. :)
 

Copper

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The Black Hound would have been Josh's FR fan-fic.
Josh said:
When I came to Black Isle, the majority of the studio was working on Planescape: Torment. I was the webmaster for that project, but I desperately wanted to work in development as a designer. I had spent a huge amount of personal time in the 90s playing 2nd Edition AD&D in the Forgotten Realms. Working on Icewind Dale was a dream come true. Yeah, the game had a smaller story focus, and yeah, it didn't have companions, and yeah, and was linear and dungeon-focused, but I was making a real AD&D video game in the Forgotten Realms.

Icewind Dale II is the first game I was credited as lead designer on, but I was the lead designer on TBH first. I felt that the Dalelands, bordering on the Moonsea, presented a cool subsection of the Realms and a crossroads of cultures that would be interesting to explore. We could build a personal story, focused on how you fatefully intersected the life of someone hell-bent on doing something crazy. Like many Realms adventures, this wasn't a world-shattering event, but something locally catastrophic, like Moander appearing near a town and devouring a huge swath of the landscape. It's just one of those crazy Realms stories where bands of adventurers and the Cult of the Dragon start throwing fireballs and leveling villages while the townsfolk run for cover.

Some people have suggested that I hate high fantasy or want to subvert high fantasy. Neither of these are really true. I just don't like how most stories handle high fantasy: both too seriously and not seriously enough. Too seriously in the sense that a lot of fantasy conventions are considered so sacred that you can't touch them (or even question them). Not seriously enough in the sense that the scenarios and the characters don't feel like they tackle the obvious questions raised by the settings they're placed in.

As an example, the Red Wizards of Thay (an FR magical organization/magocracy) underwent a transformation between 2nd Ed. and 3E. They became a "kinder, gentler" trading nation forming magical mercantile enclaves in lands that would let them in. The thing is, 2nd Ed./3E Red Wizards probably look pretty weird to Cormyreans and Dalesmen. They shave their heads (including the women), speak a different language, and have a lot of magical tattoos. They're also darker-skinned. After a few centuries of being regarded as pariahs everywhere west of the River Sur, they show up in these places and are doing business -- questionable business -- in broad daylight.

The FR designers did something interesting in shifting their MO between 2nd Ed. and 3E. The not interesting thing to do (IMO) with that shift as a scenario or story designer would be to have a pack of bad guy Thayans in an enclave with the good guy locals saying, "Those darn Thayans are up to something, please help us, heroes." I was intrigued by the idea that a Thayan enclave could contain a "new guard" of diplomatic Red Wizards and an "old guard" of fireball-hurling hardasses who aren't allowed (or are discouraged from going) outside. Some of the new guard genuinely want to mend fences. Others simply want to use it as a way to re-establish safe power centers and observation posts in lands where they previously would have been killed on sight.

The new guard use concealing/lightening makeup, don wigs, and wear "western" clothing to fit in. The old guard chafes at having to conceal their heritage and suffers under the jeers and slurs of locals if they dare to appear in public. The new guard speaks with good and proper "Common" grammar and pronunciation, not stumbling over foreign sounds and linguistic concepts. I thought it would create a more interesting and nuanced relationship between the Thayans, the Dalesman, and those who interacted with them, lending sympathy to the traditionally "villainous" and creating a more agonizing struggle between the sub-factions of the Thayans.

An old evil wizard who strokes his beard and cackles as he unleashes chain lightning on random townsfolk isn't particularly sympathetic. But suppose he were a veteran Red Wizard who watched his fellows succumb over the years in service to the zulkirs and was forced to "step aside" as young diplomats smooth talked their way into trade relationships with their former enemies. He has to endure the insults of locals, hear them mock his clothing, his pronunciation, his skin, his culture. And when he expresses his frustration to his new (younger) "superiors", he's treated like an anachronism, an old artillery cannon left to rust and rot on a forgotten battlefield. That dude may still wind up casting chain lightning on townsfolk, but if we weave a compelling story around him, the player should feel that there's more to him than that.

I've been rambling here a bit but let me get back to the main point: The Black Hound wasn't really *~ sUbVeRsIvE ~* "this ain't your daddy's RPG!" fantasy. It had elven ruins and fire genasi and Ilmaterian paladins and Maztican sorcerers and crypts full of undead -- all the stuff that made the Forgotten Realms the crazy blend of hardass adventurer-heavy, gods-mess-with-things, cults-and-dracoliches-under-this-rock D&D fantasy it always has been. I, and I think we all, just tried to approach the world with open eyes, asking, "Okay, so let's suppose all of this stuff about the Realms is true. What does that really mean for how the people in it live their lives?" It made the world more dark and grim, and sometimes that consideration wound up bucking convention, but we didn't set out to invert fantasy conventions just for the sake of doing it.

I regret that the team wasn't able to complete The Black Hound, and not just because of the time and passion we all invested in it. Some of my best tabletop RPG (and CRPG) memories come out of the Forgotten Realms. Huge, crazy, "how many more Volo's Guides can there be?" Forgotten Realms. I think those scenarios were memorable because the DMs/designers made compelling scenarios and the players gave a damn about each other and what was going on. If you take fantasy for granted, yeah, no one's going to get much out of it. I don't think we took anything for granted. We had an opportunity to make something that celebrated high fantasy without being enslaved by its conventions. In retrospect, there are a bunch of personal design choices I look back on and cringe at, but I don't regret the time I spent on it at all. When you enjoy the process of making something that much, it's hard to consider it time wasted. We had a lot of fun while it lasted.

Though I suppose PoE is to TBH what New Vegas is to Van Buren. :)

Well, he certainly never made the mod he promised.:M

Sawyer does seem to 'get' that subversion is often a cheap thrill more than most, so I'm pretty happy there'll be no early Mark Millar 'edgy subversiveness' going on.
 

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