Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Harold]

^ I know they do, that's why I said it's catering to Borderlands lootwhores. If only there would be an area that trolled them like those Broken Hills shelves

 

[evdk]

ZagorTeNej
Because the real objective of this project is to let Josh Sawyer, ultra-gameist philosopher of game design, finally have a chance at creating his masterpiece.

I'm not entirely joking, either.

Anyway, as far as the inventory goes, DA had just one shared inventory with limited space, so I don't see the connection.

DA also had camp accessible stash.

Ad Sawyer: I just hope the other guys will be able to curb some of his more irritating gamist tendencies. It doesn't seem to be happening so far, though.

 

[Dragula]

i liek phat loot

 

[Infinitron]

DA also had camp accessible stash.

It did not. There was a DLC with a half-assed storage but it was rather useless.

 

[evdk]

DA also had camp accessible stash.

It did not. There was a DLC with a half-assed storage but it was rather useless.

Really? Hmm, must be crossfiring neurons, I would swear it did have that.

 

[Dragula]

Yeah you get your own castle that has storage.

 

[Roguey]

"Backstab from the front doesn't work so give me a shit mechanic please!" - Roguey

They're the game designers. Fuck backstab if they can't turn it into a fun mechanic. Saying that another way to do it is worse is the shittiest defense of a mechanic you can make, and it's all you ever seem to do to defend Sawyer's.

"It's not fun because I hate having to micromanage" Sounds like you're in favor of decline. I've never had any issues with maneuvering my toons to the back (though I didn't like it in DA:O since I felt like it was something that should have had an AI condition) so I dunno what to tell you.

positioning important in a RtWP-game

And since when is positioning in a rtwp a bad thing? If anything DA 1/2 suck because positioning isn't as important as it is in the IE games.

low amount of character system complexity

Since when did IE AD&D have a high amount of character system complexity? You have a lot of worthless numbers in stats, you choose your weapon proficiencies, learn spells through scrolls, and that's it.

Tim Cain would create a horribly unbalanced and broken, but ultimately fun and interesting system

Arcanum was fun?

 

[Arkeus]

Of course, as we all know, rpgs are all about finding and picking up every last piece of loot

No, but if you check everything and have every possible conversations and so on when you play a rpg, obviously the game will 'cater' to you, as you'll play it more fully. Making it easier to loot the useless stuff is just acknowledging a significant hardcore percentage of players.

 

[evdk]

Roguey:
Arcanum was plenty fun. That it was still so fun despite it's lackluster combat is just further testament to its greatness.

And fix the damn quote.

 

[Roguey]

Roguey:
Arcanum was plenty fun. That it was still so fun despite it's lackluster combat is just further testament to its greatness.

I liked Arcanum because you could run around and do a bunch of different stuff but I wouldn't call it fun.

 

[Harold]

Of course, as we all know, rpgs are all about finding and picking up every last piece of loot

No, but if you check everything and have every possible conversations and so on when you play a rpg, obviously the game will 'cater' to you, as you'll play it more fully. Making it easier to loot the useless stuff is just acknowledging a significant hardcore percentage of players.

Or you could not have tons of useless loot and instead have some useful loot and limited carry weight that makes players think what they should pick & what loadout they should have when going in a combat area, thus also preventing the PC and his party from becoming the richest people in the world/ruining the economy, like in every other RPG. I d at 'hardcore precentage' though.

 

[evdk]

Roguey:
Arcanum was plenty fun. That it was still so fun despite it's lackluster combat is just further testament to its greatness.

I liked Arcanum because you could run around and do a bunch of different stuff but I wouldn't call it fun.

When I like stuff, it's doing it is fun. So Arcanum was fun. FUN FUN FUN. QED.

 

[Kz3r0]

Fucking casuals. All items should have realistic weights, and each character should carry a large pack that will hold up to 80 pounds (50 for females). These large packs are rendered on each and every character. Whenever a thief attempts a roll or somersault, even an empty pack will bang around on the ground, most likely causing the maneuver to fail utterly. The more weight someone's carrying in their pack, the more sluggish their performance in combat.

In Arcanum, of all games, encumbrance affected dexterity and accuracy, and if the character had any weapon equipped pickpocket will likely fail.

Looting should be like Lunar Lander: When you click on an item to loot it, a mini-game will begin and you must carefully maneuver the item into an open spot in your pack by adjusting the trajectory of the character's hand.

The analogy with Tetris would be complete then, cool.

Each party will need a team of horses to pull a cart carrying the 5,000,000 or so gold coins they'll need to purchase suits of armor, enchanted weapons and spells.

Daggerfall and dungeon Siege let you get a pack mule if I remember correctly.

 

[Haba]

In my design: Loot is in a sled, if you escape from combat, you have to leave all of your extra stuff and rations behind. They are permanently lost. Then your starve and die.

 

[Roguey]

Or you could not have tons of useless loot and instead have some useful loot and limited carry weight that makes players think what they should pick & what loadout they should have when going in a combat area, thus also preventing the PC and his party from becoming the richest people in the world/ruining the economy, like in every other RPG. I d at 'hardcore precentage' though.

Judging from what I quoted earlier, Sawyer believes it's important to preserve BG's loot system where if you kill a guy wearing leather armor and a short sword, you can loot it. So there must be useless loot. And it's not like all these little pieces of loot were instrumental in breaking the economy since they were like one gold each. I can't remember if shops in BG had a gold limit (I don't think they did..?) but that would be another way to keep things balanced (as would introducing lower denominations; all the tiny frivolous things could just add up over time).

As herostratus said earlier, loot management in the IE games was just dropping ammo stacks/trash in favor of things that would sell for slightly more money. In addition to rearranging crap to keep everyone below their encumbrance limit (pointless busywork). And the stack limits were also bullshit, thankfully fixed by mods.

 

[Kz3r0]

Cooldowns should be suspended while running. Or make stamina deplete when you kite.

Edit: Actually both should be done. So the running character can't regenerate abilities. And while the remaining characters can fire at the enemy following the kiting one, you'd risk losing that character as his/her stamina depletes.

Arcanum did that, not that great of an improvement.

 

[Grunker]

It's not fun because I hate having to micromanage

lololololololol

because there is no difference between different forms of micromanagement, eh? Action mechanics suck in this kind of game. They did in DA2, and they will here.

And since when is positioning in a rtwp a bad thing? If anything DA 1/2 suck because positioning isn't as important as it is in the IE games.

Moving your mage back = easy and quick

Making your guys stand on opposite sides on an opponent and pausing constantly because he moves a bit = motherfucking tedious

This should be obvious.

Since when did IE AD&D have a high amount of character system complexity? You have a lot of worthless numbers in stats, you choose your weapon proficiencies, learn spells through scrolls, and that's it.

Customization =/= complexity. IE games had atrocious customization (except on high levels, in spell selection and during character generation) but the mechanics behind AD&D is, as I've stated many times in discussions you've participated in, very complex.

Arcanum was fun?

Arcanum is shit, finally we agree.

And no one has yet answered me where the IE is in this game, so far.

 

[Infinitron]

Judging from what I quoted earlier, Sawyer believes it's important to preserve BG's loot system where if you kill a guy wearing leather armor and a short sword, you can loot it.

Infinitronian influence at work? http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/374603143389921481

 

[Grunker]

Excidium: Did you miss the part where I said the only thing PE shared with the IE games were graphics? IE pre-rendered backgrounds. I asked about mechanics.

Except that it'll be shared between all party members.

 

[evdk]

And no one has yet answered me where the IE is in this game, so far.

It's in the marketing.

 

[Grunker]

My point exactly.

 

[Infinitron]

Grunker I don't really want to get into this debate, but the problem with your question is that much of the intrinsic nature of the IE games was aesthetic and superficial. These were not games with particularly iconic mechanics and systems.

You'll have classes. You'll have races. You'll have 2D isometric. You'll have six guys in your party running around in formations. What more does a game need to have to be "IE-like"?

 

[Harold]

Or you could not have tons of useless loot and instead have some useful loot and limited carry weight that makes players think what they should pick & what loadout they should have when going in a combat area, thus also preventing the PC and his party from becoming the richest people in the world/ruining the economy, like in every other RPG. I d at 'hardcore precentage' though.

Judging from what I quoted earlier, Sawyer believes it's important to preserve BG's loot system where if you kill a guy wearing leather armor and a short sword, you can loot it. So there must be useless loot. And it's not like all these little pieces of loot were instrumental in breaking the economy since they were like one gold each. I can't remember if shops in BG had a gold limit (I don't think they did..?) but that would be another way to keep things balanced (as would introducing lower denominations; all the tiny frivolous things could just add up over time).

As herostratus said earlier, loot management in the IE games was just dropping ammo stacks/trash in favor of things that would sell for slightly more money. In addition to rearranging crap to keep everyone below their encumbrance limit (pointless busywork). And the stack limits were also bullshit, thankfully fixed by mods.

Agreed, I just expected Sawyer to choose the radical solution of very limited carry weight (based on that change in his FNV mod) that forced you to think and not pick up every rusty dagger or whatever you found. I can see how very limited carry weight in a party game would annoy most players (not me, but granted I'm moderately aspie), but magical infinite loot stash just seems like a lazy solution and rubs me the wrong way.

 

[SwiftCrack]

Loving the extensive updates; the blast thing is just a sling without rebuying ammo for 1gp per stack imo

 

[Roguey]

because there is no difference between different forms of micromanagement, eh? Action mechanics suck in this kind of game. They did in DA2, and they will here.

I don't see how moving a character to the back is an action mechanic. FYI this was also how it worked in IWD2 and an optional way of handling things in IWD post-HoW: http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/iwd/character/classes/tables/backstab.shtml http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/iwd2/character/classes/tables/sneakattack.shtml

Annnnnnd it's how it worked in BG2/BG after Tales of the Sword Coast:
http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg/info/expansion/

Thieves will only be able to backstab if behind the victim. Enemy Thieves will now backstab as well, an ability they lacked in the original game.

Also DA2 removed backstabs. You should have loved that feature

Making your guys stand on opposite sides on an opponent and pausing constantly because he moves a bit = motherfucking tedious

This should be obvious.

"There will be a somewhat loose angle requirement on this to keep it from being burdensome."

Customization =/= complexity. IE games had atrocious customization but the mechanics behind AD&D is, as I've stated many times in discussions you've participated in, very complex.

Only the spell system.

Arcanum is shit, finally we agree.

No, Arcanum isn't shit. I liked it better than Torment.

And no one has yet answered me where the IE is in this game, so far.

You start off as a single character and get a party of six and fight rtwp battles in pretty prerendered pseudo-isometric environments.

Except that it'll be shared between all party members.

I fail to see how this is decline. You can't access it during combat, what fucking difference does it make?