Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Jaesun]

At least D&D has a wealth of spells to select from, instead of retarded WOW Dragon Turd shit.

 

[Grunker]

At least D&D has a wealth of spells to select from, instead of retarded WOW Dragon Turd shit.

DA has nothing to do with WoW. Stop this bullshit claim. Anyone who has played both will be able to say that playing them feels completely different. They're not even compatible on a basic basis. And though it's not nearly as complex in spell-selection as BG (to its detriment), it has actual martial interactions which makes up for it. P:E won't have nearly the amount of spells as BG, but it, too, will have martial interactions.

also u r retarded

You could plausibly say it was like Dragon Age when Sawyer was still talking about cooldowns (although even then it was different)

But now? It's D&D 4E, not Dragon Age. You'd think that's bad enough.

Please enlighten me how P:E is like 4E, except some basic principles are from 4E? Everything I've heard about it so far is nothing like 4E. Classes in P:E will be pretty different from each other based on the words of Sawyer. In 4E they all shared the exact same identical base, progression AND mechanics just with different spell-selection.

 

[Excidium]

Please enlighten me how P:E is like 4E, except some basic principles are from 4E? Everything I've heard about it so far is nothing like 4E. Classes in P:E will be pretty different from each other based on the words of Sawyer. In 4E they all shared the exact same identical base, progression AND mechanics just with different spell-selection.

I think it's because Sawyer's ability system works similarly to powers.

Also we haven't seen the classes being too distinct except for each one having their own gimmick so for all we know they might all work the same way, that's usually the result when one is obsessed with balance.

 

[Grunker]

Please enlighten me how P:E is like 4E, except some basic principles are from 4E? Everything I've heard about it so far is nothing like 4E. Classes in P:E will be pretty different from each other based on the words of Sawyer. In 4E they all shared the exact same identical base, progression AND mechanics just with different spell-selection.

I think it's because Sawyer's ability system works similarly to powers.

Also we haven't seen the classes being too distinct except for each one having their own gimmick so for all we know they might all work the same way, that's usually the result when one is obsessed with balance.

Might be, might be.

 

[Infinitron]

Also we haven't seen the classes being too distinct except for each one having their own gimmick so for all we know they might all work the same way, that's usually the result when one is obsessed with balance.

The classes are supposed to be flexible enough that you CAN make them work the same way, or close to it, but you don't have to.

I was thinking of the concept of per-encounter abilities when comparing PE to 4E.

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

I read this thread and all i can think of is Saywer riding Tim Cain around the Obsidian offices like a Pony wearing nothing but a cowboy hat and expounding on the virtues of well balanced game design.

 

[BobtheTree]

I don't get why cooldowns are so objectionable and make it WOW like, at least the way they described them. The cooldowns were more between combat encounters, which makes sense because in most IE games you try to find a way to rest to get back your spells after every battle which can lead to a lot of tedious backtracking between battles. The cooldown system would cut down on the tedium of the game. I probably spent hours in every IE game just finding places to rest/resting just so I could get spells back. Done properly, it won't the game easier, just less tedious than IE games.

 

[Irenaeus]

Best way for Obsidian to implement resting in a IE-like game is the using the mechanics of SoZ, which they already know how it works. Since, you know, they made the game.

 

[Stonewolf]

Now, I don't think that player skill and character skill need to be mutually exclusive, but the thing is that character skill must necessarily be the part that limits what you can do for a game to be considered an RPG. (...) Complaining about it is like buying a sport game and complaining that nothing ever happens in it but a bunch of morons chasing a ball all the time - well duh. (...)To hit rolls may not be necessary, but an RPG absolutely needs some success/failure mechanics that cannot be overridden by player's skill.

What you're saying that a peasant PC shouldn't be able to kill a knight with pitchfork because of player's skill or metagame knowledge. I agree.

What I actually meant though is that player's actions should be required for any sort of success in melee combat. If PC knight meets enemy NPC knight, equal stats and gear, and player doesn't use his skills properly - he should lose the fight. Moreover, PC should get his ass handed to him by NPCs under his level/stats/gear if he fails to act properly. Melee combat should require constant activity from player to work. That's what I mean when I talk about a game that plays itself - you can basically select a target and go make a coffee, your job is done because all you actually need to do is to gain and distribute properly stats and acquire sufficent gear. That's passive and utterly boring. I want to be actively involved in the fight that's going on, not to stand and watch random dice rolls. Gaining stats and building a character is like preparing a meal, I do it because I want to eat it later, I don't want the game to eat it itself with me watching.

Tldr: RPG needs player's success to be dependant both on his combat activity and preparation, and failing in either should result in a general failure.

 

[Roguey]

Best way for Obsidian to implement resting in a IE-like game is the using the mechanics of SoZ, which they already know how it works. Since, you know, they made the game.

SoZ didn't fix anything, though the actual areas themselves were so small that you could clear them out in their entirety before ever needing to rest. The final dungeon was an exception, but there was nothing stopping you from just going outside and resting instead of using an alarm stone.

 

[Irenaeus]

SoZ didn't fix anything

SoZ fixed resting anywhere in the dungeon.

 

[Roguey]

SoZ didn't fix anything

SoZ fixed resting anywhere in the dungeon.

As I said, that's pointless. You can literally just take a few seconds to walk outside if you absolutely have to. With longer dungeons that could be minutes. Josh has observed people backtracking to safe rest spots if that's what it takes. Having every or nearly ever combat area lock the entrance on you would be contrived.

 

[Irenaeus]

It's not pointless to me. Resting in the dungeon was incredibly stupid. At least, I can rationalize leaving and resting outside. It would work even better with time limit and resource-eating mechanics.

Edit: And risk of random attacks while resting outside!

 

[Grunker]

SoZ didn't fix anything

SoZ fixed resting anywhere in the dungeon.

As I said, that's pointless. You can literally just take a few seconds to walk outside if you absolutely have to. With longer dungeons that could be minutes. Josh has observed people backtracking to safe rest spots if that's what it takes. Having every or nearly ever combat area lock the entrance on you would be contrived.

Chaos Chronicles handles this better in my opinion.

 

[Jasede]

Is that out yet?

Also I wish games came with manuals; then we could have 300 spells again, like in Baldur's Gate 1. One of my favorite late childhood memories is reading the (thick as hell) BG 1 TotSC manual. Elminster even commented on some spells. I loved that. I loved how rustic it all was, and how each spell did something neat. Why can't being a wizard be fun anymore? I hate just blowing things up... I want lots of different spells, hundreds of them, multiple hundreds. I want the freedom to pick whichever I like, even if they might be sub-par. I want entertaining spells that enable different approaches to every situation.

I miss video games.

 

[Grunker]

Is that out yet?

Nope. I think October 2013 was the last mentioned dat.

 

[Surf Solar]

Is that out yet?

Also I wish games came with manuals; then we could have 300 spells again, like in Baldur's Gate 1. One of my favorite late childhood memories is reading the (thick as hell) BG 1 TotSC manual. Elminster even commented on some spells. I loved that. I loved how rustic it all was, and how each spell did something neat. Why can't being a wizard be fun anymore? I hate just blowing things up... I want lots of different spells, hundreds of them, multiple hundreds. I want the freedom to pick whichever I like, even if they might be sub-par. I want entertaining spells that enable different approaches to every situation.

I miss video games.

I still have the BGTotSC manual laying on the loo, it's always a nice read.

 

[Roguey]

Is that out yet?

Also I wish games came with manuals; then we could have 300 spells again, like in Baldur's Gate 1. One of my favorite late childhood memories is reading the (thick as hell) BG 1 TotSC manual. Elminster even commented on some spells. I loved that. I loved how rustic it all was, and how each spell did something neat. Why can't being a wizard be fun anymore? I hate just blowing things up... I want lots of different spells, hundreds of them, multiple hundreds. I want the freedom to pick whichever I like, even if they might be sub-par. I want entertaining spells that enable different approaches to every situation.

I miss video games.

One doesn't need a manual to have a lot of spells since you can and should present all information in the game itself. There were also 104 spells in BG1 (plus 17 with the expansion), not 300. They needed a sequel to push 300. Anyway, the actual number doesn't mean anything. Neverwinter Nights 2 has over 400.

 

[kris]

It's not pointless to me. Resting in the dungeon was incredibly stupid. At least, I can rationalize leaving and resting outside. It would work even better with time limit and resource-eating mechanics.

Edit: And risk of random attacks while resting outside!

Best would be to have dungeons that is not static. If a player rest in it or if a player leaves, then something should happen. Monsters should repopulate it, evil wizard at the end should take his treasure horde and leave and things like that.
As it is you can clear out 90% in the Goblin kings cave, leave and then come back 2 months later with the King and his retinue still waiting for you in the throne room.

Solutions:
- Make dungeons react to player invasion and absence.
- Make ambushes while resting a real danger (have most in the party sleeping)
- Put in some kind of timelimits.

 

[Undead Phoenix]

I don't know, bros, it's hard to get excited over P:E. Despite a great deal of design points that I like - quite a few which are, in my mind, the most effective way to do this kind of game - it's still the disillusionment over the changes in design and end product of the last Obsidian game I was interested in that drove me onto the Kodex. I'm not sure if there's any deeper pit than here when P:E inevitably turns to shit after constant dumbing down and retreating from the original aims.


Doing the basics well is the most important thing.

 

[Jasede]

Good point about NWN 2, the spellcasting in it was terribly unexciting.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/GZiets/q/429107363912374489

Anything you can tell us in terms of the monsters that we should be expecting in PE?

It’s too early to reveal anything specific, as we’re still in the process of (gradually) developing them. I can tell you that I just saw a concept yesterday for a creature unique to PE, and it looked great. There will be more where that came from. We’ve also been talking about a creature that will feel familiar… but with an interesting twist that I really like. (I wish I could tell you more!)

Some of these creatures may appear in future Kickstarter updates…

 

[Roguey]

Solutions:
- Make dungeons react to player invasion and absence.

This was proposed during the original discussion and Josh says doing it is the equivalent of designing each area 1.5 times. Not going to happen because people prefer more content.

- Make ambushes while resting a real danger (have most in the party sleeping)

Not much of a problem if you're resting after every fight or just backtracking to safe areas to rest.

- Put in some kind of timelimits.

Hardly anyone likes time limits in RPGs and it'd be contrived to have one attached to every single combat area.

 

[kris]

- Put in some kind of timelimits.

Hardly anyone likes time limits in RPGs and it'd be contrived to have one attached to every single combat area.

The time-limits was not something for all dungeons, just when it makes sense.

- Have the residents of the dungeon die of old age after some time.

 

[Arkeus]

SoZ didn't fix anything

SoZ fixed resting anywhere in the dungeon.

As I said, that's pointless. You can literally just take a few seconds to walk outside if you absolutely have to. With longer dungeons that could be minutes. Josh has observed people backtracking to safe rest spots if that's what it takes. Having every or nearly ever combat area lock the entrance on you would be contrived.

Yeah, no. You couldn't rest outside in SoZ i am pretty sure, so quite often you needed to run back to a city with half your party dead and praying that you didn't get noticed by rampaging monsters around. That was cool.