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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Murk

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I understood what you're saying Grunker, I guess I just don't agree that the forum is swooning over it. Still, whatever the case, my opinion on the game is now what it was when first announced "probably going to be pretty good but not great, maybe worth one or two plays depending on build customization".

I'm not saying that the godlikes are an original race but that it's cool that you can play them and it sounds like a great kind of character to play for the world Obsidian is building. Can you name a CRPG that lets you play a race akin to a godlike?

Yes. In fact I can name several RPGs with races much "weirder." The obvious example in this case, however, is NWN2 which has planethouched in them (incidentally, the faces of the character models in NWN2 planetouched look pretty close to the art from P:E).

Why even go that far? Torment, one of the IE games which is supposedly a spiritual influence on P:E, had the following characters:

Immortal amnesiac (possibly human?)
Succubus (demon)
Floating skull (unknown original race, possibly a Mimir)
Chaotic robot who had attained individualism
Revenant of justice that is possessing a suit of armor
Man who is basically a fire elemental that can fly and is constantly burning
Tiefling

Am I missing anyone? If tiefling, a plane touched race is the most conventional of the lot then I'd say that "godlikes" did a terrible job of being "weird".
 

Grunker

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I understood what you're saying Grunker, I guess I just don't agree that the forum is swooning over it. Still, whatever the case, my opinion on the game is now what it was when first announced "probably going to be pretty good but not great, maybe worth one or two plays depending on build customization".

My opinion of the game, so far, is much higher than that, in point of fact :)
 

Roguey

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Oh boy a return of the "Waaaaaaaah why won't they use my shitty pen and paper rules"

I don't care about the ethnicities stuff, my point is that Sawyer said several times in different interviews what he first implied in that update: that the range of races available to the player will be ordinary, not-so-ordinary and totally whacko-man-you-won't-believe-this-race. Which is a lie.
Give me direct quotations please because I don't believe you. ^_^

I believe what we have here is a failure to communicate.
 

waywardOne

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So these guys have an opportunity to make up their own setting and mechanics, but instead are choosing only to rip-off and rename moderately interesting existing ones? Pardon me while I wipe the last smear of care from my ass crack.
 

Aeschylus

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
So Roguey, what would be a good rule set? Or do they all suck?
You know, after a lot of thought I've found myself sort of agreeing with Sawyer's contention that a lot of the standard P&P systems could... well... use improvement, particularly in the context of video games.

I've had a lot of good times playing D&D 2E, various Whitewolf games, Shadowrun, Pathfinder, etc., but my best experience ever GMing a game was when I made up my own ruleset vaguely based on some unholy combination of Fallout, Arcanum and Arx Fatalis and just made up any specific rules I needed by the seat of my pants as the campaign went along. I'm not sure exactly what I'm trying to say (I'm drunk, sue me), but I guess I'm just interested to see what Sawyer comes up with relatively free from the ideological constraints of previous systems, creating something that he personally would enjoy.

Maybe it'll end up being some strange, joyless mess, but who knows, it could be something interesting.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
He's not making a system he would enjoy. He's making a system that fixes the problems that he saw with the IE games.
 

Roguey

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Turns out this thread depresses Josh but only if you've already pledged and don't like what they're doing.
Josh Sawyer said:
weirdly the more I argue with ropekid about RPG mechanics and the more I realize we completely disagree on some things, the less I worry about whether Project Eternity will let me down.
at the very least you will probably know in advance if it's not for you. i don't mind much if someone just doesn't like some element of a game and decides not to get it. i get a lot more bummed out if i gave someone a false impression of what they were going to get.
That's what you get for initially using the "be as vague as possible to get more money" approach. I'm sure it was the Obsidian owners' decision.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Turns out this thread depresses Josh but only if you've already pledged and don't like what they're doing.
Josh Sawyer said:
weirdly the more I argue with ropekid about RPG mechanics and the more I realize we completely disagree on some things, the less I worry about whether Project Eternity will let me down.
at the very least you will probably know in advance if it's not for you. i don't mind much if someone just doesn't like some element of a game and decides not to get it. i get a lot more bummed out if i gave someone a false impression of what they were going to get.
That's what you get for initially using the "be as vague as possible to get more money" approach. I'm sure it was the Obsidian owners' decision.

This thread?
 

Roguey

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Well not specifically this thread. There's been a lot of grognarding on the Obsidian forums, though some of those are posters from this thread.

Roguey: will this be an Infinity Engine style game or not (I think most people pledged for this)? And will there be any inspiration drawn from Darklands? :D
Yes and yes.
 
Self-Ejected

Irenaeus

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Maybe if Sawyer had less... ardent apologizers, people would complain a lot less. For what is worth, while I disagree with some small issues, like bashing doors, and I'm skeptical about some other stuff, like the armor and damage systems, I still have a positive outlook that ultimately the gameplay may be very good in the end. I have pledged a lot of money in good faith. It's just that disparaging D&D in particular and all other RPG systems in general when you have nothing to show yet is just jarring when coming from a profession game developer.
 

Harold

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Give me direct quotations please because I don't believe you. ^_^
Can't be bothered to sift through dozens of interviews they did throughout their campaign so I'll restrain myself to just 2

We're going to have subrace offshoots that are slightly less traditional (like the "boreal" dwarves that people have already seen) as well as increasingly unusual races like orlans, aumaua, and godlike, but if you want to play a fair-haired bow-twanging elf or an axe-swinging bearded dwarf, we've got it covered.
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,3114.0.html

Increasingly unusual my ass.

And here's one from Avellone from your favourite site
In addition to the more easily recognizable races, we have a number of specialized races as well, including the god-touched races and even more unusual races we intend to unveil later.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/05/obsidian-on-project-eternity-old-school-innovation/

Roguey said:
I believe what we have here is a failure to communicate
Such honeyed words to describe lies! R00fles!

Roguey said:
That's what you get for initially using the "be as vague as possible to get more money" approach. I'm sure it was the Obsidian owners' decision.
Pretty much. It's obvious they were just parroting lines Feargus gave them during their initial interviews, especially if you remember that Brennecke stream where he was just repeating that shit ad nauseum every half hour or so, while evidently having no idea what he was talking about.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Well not specifically this thread. There's been a lot of grognarding on the Obsidian forums, though some of those are posters from this thread.

What threads on the Obsidian forums are you referring to? I haven't been keeping watch there lately.
 

Roguey

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We're going to have subrace offshoots that are slightly less traditional (like the "boreal" dwarves that people have already seen) as well as increasingly unusual races like orlans, aumaua, and godlike, but if you want to play a fair-haired bow-twanging elf or an axe-swinging bearded dwarf, we've got it covered.
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,3114.0.html

Increasingly unusual my ass.
That's not incorrect. Those three are slightly more unusual than the standard humans, elves and dwarves. Aumaua aren't a complete copy of orcs, nor are orlans a complete copy of hobbits and gnomes.

Editing in a furthermore http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63230-would-you-want-polynesian-inspired-aumaua/
Personally I hope those clothes were not reflective of the aumaua culture. They were pretty generic.
They were not. There are two major aumaua-dominated cultures in the world, one that is closer to the Dyrwood (but still not that close). Their clothing looks very different. When Polina made her first full-scale aumaua illustration, he looked so out-of-the-ordinary that the physiology combined with the outfit and equipment made him seem like he wasn't part of a fantasy setting anymore. Personally, I thought it was pretty cool, but we did additional illustrations of aumaua who had culturally integrated into Aedyr/Dyrwood/Readceras/The Vailian Republics. Ultimately, aumaua characters in the game can be geared in the same outfits that other characters can use, so we wanted to make sure that they were physiologically distinctive even in "normal" gear.
And here's one from Avellone from your favourite site
In addition to the more easily recognizable races, we have a number of specialized races as well, including the god-touched races and even more unusual races we intend to unveil later.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/10/05/obsidian-on-project-eternity-old-school-innovation/

He doesn't say anything about being able to play them.

Roguey said:
I believe what we have here is a failure to communicate
Such honeyed words to describe lies! R00fles!

Quantify unusual. :P Also something I overlooked when going over that one update:
Game Basics - Your Party, Your Characters, and Races, Update #3
Note the lack of "Your Races." I never expected the possibility of playing something completely alien because of the huge art/writing costs that would have to go along with it.

What threads on the Obsidian forums are you referring to? I haven't been keeping watch there lately.
Pretty much any of those long threads that discuss about gameplay/his ideas.
 

Harold

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Roguey I will throw the towel regarding this matter because semantics games tire me.
Instead, I'll shift gears and add that I find it pretty amusing how, at this point, PE seems so eerily similar in both gameplay and world design* to DA, another game that rode on the spiritual succesor bandwagon.

*not-14th/15th century Europe with races having different ethnicities/cultures i.e. not-French, not-English, not-Italians etc. DA was also supposed to have more bizarre races in its early design, but the higher-ups at Bioware decided against it for the same reaseons the higher-ups at Obsidian probably did.

All that being said, I'm positive PE's expansion will be more weird/original
 

DraQ

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The reason why I think Morrowind does it wrong is because it tricks you into thinking that what you're seeing is what's happening. There are no indicators of this arbitrary system under the hood which relies on random chance other than your weapon clipping through the enemy without making contact.
Indeed, that's the problem with most RPGs in existence - that they treat audiovisual representation of world and mechanics as token rather than thing in itself.


Deus Ex (...) random dice rolling.
Nope. Deus Ex had honest firing cone mechanics AND visual indicator for spread. It never applied roll to see if you actually hit what you hit. It merely added random targeting error within bounds shown to you via expanding/contracting crosshair BEFORE you did the hitting part.

Play mage instead.

Without exploiting alchemy, abusing trainers or using any form of melee as anything but last resort backup.

I've read that mages are getting terribly whopped ater by mobs with magic resistance or spell reflecting. True/false?
Both. Reflect is indeed a bit of PITA, and not exactly fair, but there are means to reduce its impact to insignificance if you make the right spells and use them correctly.

I am assuming full suite of magic skills here, otherwise you might miss some important components. OTOH if you don't have all magic skills in your build, then you'll probably have some other useful skills. And won't be a 'pure' mage.

Or you're making a role playing game and you want to hit chance to be based on character skill.

You mean a game that plays itself and player is there just to watch.
Well, the thing is that having *character's* skill separate from *player's* skill is pretty much the core of what makes game an RPG.

Complaining about it is like buying a sport game and complaining that nothing ever happens in it but a bunch of morons chasing a ball all the time - well duh.

Now, I don't think that player skill and character skill need to be mutually exclusive, but the thing is that character skill must necessarily be the part that limits what you can do for a game to be considered an RPG. For example if you define your character as superb swordsman, but really lousy shot, then the game mechanics must successfully prevent you from applying your 1337 41m1n6 5k1772 with this character, no matter how 1337 they are - for example by not allowing you to pinpoint where your shot will actually hit. Other penalties, like reducing rate of attacks, their latency, and adding other inconveniences can help, but they alone aren't limiting.
It doesn't matter if I can fire very slowly - if I can still shoot someone in the eye from a kilometre away I'm still a pretty good shoot.

In particular trying to replace to-hit rolls with stuff like damage scaling is failure incarnate, because not only it isn't limiting (because the skill is still perfectly reliable, even with low damage you can continue to lay into the enemy until they drop and build your tactics around this continuous damage output), but it also lets to situations far more unrealistic than to hit rolls.

Why?

To hit rolls are pretty sketchy representation of actual combat and look bad up close, but they conserve some important properties of actual combat.
For example:
-being skewered on a sword or getting an arrow through the eye is lethal no matter who holds the weapon
-combat generally revolves around hitting while not getting hit yourself which is facilitated by having more skill

Damage scaling, OTOH don't conserve those properties:
-being shot in the eye or brained with a two-handed axe results with only minor irritation or bruising as long as the person inflicting the injury isn't particularly apt at using their weapon
-combat skills generally revolves around just standing there while hitting and getting hit, until one of you drops. Amount of hits dropping the target is decided by skill.

You *might* conserve those properties, if you for example make skill affect attack and parry speed and outcome of miss or parry, for example by introducing balance mechanics of some sort:
-first point is like in the first example.
-superior combatant will generally manage to reliably parry or dodge inferior combatant's attacks, with effects leaving the opponent vulnerable to counters.

You'd still benefit from some accuracy mechanics, though, if only to allow skilled characters to make precise attacks targetting gaps in defences and weak points of armour.
That's in melee, with ranged weapons accuracy is simply indispensable.


So, tl;dr:
To hit rolls may not be necessary, but an RPG absolutely needs some success/failure mechanics that cannot be overridden by player's skill.
 

uaciaut

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That's what you get for initially using the "be as vague as possible to get more money" approach. I'm sure it was the Obsidian owners' decision.

I don't think people can expect much details about kickstarter projects simply because there's not much to give in the first place. It's not like i would have wanted them to spoil any story elements, he's been pretty clear on the fighting not being TBS and that's pretty much it. Of course they sold on the "nostalgia" idea, but i doubt they had that much info to sell on at that point anyway since i won't be expecting them to put too much effort or too many resources on a project they know won't get a publisher and the success of which relies on a public funding campaign.
 

Grunker

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I seriously cannot fathom the people who say this game feels like DA. I'm pretty critical of P:E as you all well know, but I'm just not seeing the DA-similarities. Basically almost every point where this game looks like DA so far, it also looks like the IE-games... except maybe rounds.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
You could plausibly say it was like Dragon Age when Sawyer was still talking about cooldowns (although even then it was different)

But now? It's D&D 4E, not Dragon Age. You'd think that's bad enough.
 

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