Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[tuluse]

For those that stalks the developer's formspring, twitter... daily, have they given any extra explanations on guns, gunpowder or modernity?

For example what would prevent guns from evolving further just like they did IRL, and end up being the dominant weapons in 300 years?

Primitive rifles are already considered powerful, now just imagine a WWI riffle.
A simple AK-47 would make combat mages completely obsolete, as well as most magic weapons anyway.

That could limit the future perspective to only a few decades, max a century, before modern weaponery kick in.

How are they gonna nerf the guns and gunpowder to prevent that?

Unless of course, they want to make it arcanum style, but they haven't said anything about magic disrupting technology and vice versa, which puts the 2 on even grounds (hence the cycles...).

1) There aren't going to be riles, there's not even muskets. Sawyer said primitive wheel locks.

2) What video game series spans 300 years? I guess Fallout technically does, but hell man, how about we'll cross that bridge when we come it.

 

[Kirtai]

Also the fact that it's somehow refreshing to know for sure, that technology, science and ''boring'' school stuff aren't the way here, and it's all about magic (instant gratification as opposed to physics/chemistry/math...), exploration, lyricism....

It always surprises me when people think of science and technology as "boring". Of course, actually doing them can be boring as hell but the results and the things you can see and know are just awe inspiring. Almost magical

There's a quote I can no longer find that describes a computer that goes something like "it's lightning trapped in a box of sand that we taught how to think". How's that for magical?

 

[Akarnir]

Also the fact that it's somehow refreshing to know for sure, that technology, science and ''boring'' school stuff aren't the way here, and it's all about magic (instant gratification as opposed to physics/chemistry/math...), exploration, lyricism....

It always surprises me when people think of science and technology as "boring". Of course, actually doing them can be boring as hell but the results and the things you can see and know are just awe inspiring. Almost magical

There's a quote I can no longer find that describes a computer that goes something like "it's lightning trapped in a box of sand that we taught how to think". How's that for magical?

Yes.
Science is fascinating. But it isn't as much gratifying as magic. I'm in physics, and it's mostly staring at a bunch of data on a computer for hours. Pulling the switch on a big metal box for a few invisible electric discharge to happen in the vaccum, solving complicated equations... That's still fascinating for one who knows what it's all about.
But personally, If magic existed, I would be practicing magic instead of physics.

Try to create a fireball by yourself. You can't. You'll have to rely on an industrial society who will provide you with a grenade launcher engineered by the effort of hundreds of different people.


The thing with magic is that it's all spontaneous. It's you alone, by the power of your soul/spirit/body/will/..., and of course some personal knowledge, but nothing overwhelming. And in fact, in a Backward tribal society, you will see powerful sorcerers, Miracle dispenser clerics...
You can still refine your magic by studies and knowledge, but let's face it, that isn't quite comparable as sitting on a bench for 4 long years studying abstract equations until you finally get to work on a very specific task the rest of your career .

So yeah you said it. doing them can be boring to many (still cool to me). The results are pretty cool, but not as practical as creating a massive sandstorm by yourself after yours of meditation.

 

[DraQ]

No, not really -- I'm thinking in terms of making a D&D game in a D&D setting using D&D rules in a manner that fits the theme of the game.

And D&D becomes more and more of a trainwreck as you move further away from lvl1.

Of course, at lvl1 it's mechanics is closely based on wargames and not really suited for playing a small group of people through a large number of encounters and expecting them to survive due to lack of fine control and detail, so it's a bit of a lose-lose scenario.

 

[sea]

I think what people object to in videogame magic is more that the way it's done isn't interesting. It's always unexplained except in terms of mechanics and vague stuff about "energies" or "power of the gods." There is a lot of room for giving a more cogent, coherent explanation on how magic really works and also for turning that into gameplay, i.e. requiring the player to assemble objects of power, actually study and unearth knowledge in order to learn spells, that sort of thing. But most games, for reasons both of game balance and Awesome Button, just say "yeah I guess you can throw fireballs because you read a lot or something."

Think of the runes setup used in some older blobbers and most recently in Legend of Grimrock. The idea that you actually have to look up the appropriate runes to cast a spell is really, really cool. Similar ideas could be applied to another style of game, especially if the knowledge to cast powerful spells is hidden away and requires a quest, dungeon delve etc. to uncover.

When magic is made mundane like that it's no wonder why questions like "why isn't everyone a mage and why are there any problems in the world?" immediately come to the forefront.

 

[Akarnir]

I think what people object to in videogame magic is more that the way it's done isn't interesting. It's always unexplained except in terms of mechanics and vague stuff about "energies" or "power of the gods." There is a lot of room for giving a more cogent, coherent explanation on how magic really works and also for turning that into gameplay, i.e. requiring the player to assemble objects of power, actually study and unearth knowledge in order to learn spells, that sort of thing. But most games, for reasons both of game balance and Awesome Button, just say "yeah I guess you can throw fireballs because you read a lot or something."

Think of the runes setup used in some older blobbers and most recently in Legend of Grimrock. The idea that you actually have to look up the appropriate runes to cast a spell is really, really cool. Similar ideas could be applied to another style of game, especially if the knowledge to cast powerful spells is hidden away and requires a quest, dungeon delve etc. to uncover.

When magic is made mundane like that it's no wonder why questions like "why isn't everyone a mage and why are there any problems in the world?" immediately come to the forefront.

Yeah basically that. I like the more folkloric definitions of magic. The ones that you tend to find in ancient myth, because it usually comes with a deep, philosophical meaning.

''Mana'', after all is a word that comes from the polynesian legends. It refers to an inner force within each individuals, that can then be used to affect the physical word (magic).

That's one example on how you can do it right. Most individuals wouldn't have the inner force to even light a candle. Everyone couldn't be a mage.

There's plenty of other way to handle it, but I always favored this one.

Digging into myth, legends and all those IRL civilization lore is a good way to find inspiration.

But overall, for me, Magic =/= Industry.
You can't mass produce, it's an individual force. Magic Items cannot be mass produced either, Magic shouldn't be stored like electricity... Extremely difficult , if not impossible to harvest (and it would require special conditions that would make it's widespread use impossible, even for the most high tech civ).
That's where the beauty lies.

 

[DraQ]

I think what people object to in videogame magic is more that the way it's done isn't interesting. It's always unexplained except in terms of mechanics and vague stuff about "energies" or "power of the gods." There is a lot of room for giving a more cogent, coherent explanation on how magic really works and also for turning that into gameplay, i.e. requiring the player to assemble objects of power, actually study and unearth knowledge in order to learn spells, that sort of thing. But most games, for reasons both of game balance and Awesome Button, just say "yeah I guess you can throw fireballs because you read a lot or something."

Think of the runes setup used in some older blobbers and most recently in Legend of Grimrock. The idea that you actually have to look up the appropriate runes to cast a spell is really, really cool. Similar ideas could be applied to another style of game, especially if the knowledge to cast powerful spells is hidden away and requires a quest, dungeon delve etc. to uncover.

When magic is made mundane like that it's no wonder why questions like "why isn't everyone a mage and why are there any problems in the world?" immediately come to the forefront.

Yeah basically that. I like the more folkloric definitions of magic. The ones that you tend to find in ancient myth, because it usually comes with a deep, philosophical meaning.

''Mana'', after all is a word that comes from the polynesian legends. It refers to an inner force within each individuals, that can then be used to affect the physical word (magic).

That's one example on how you can do it right. Most individuals wouldn't have the inner force to even light a candle. Everyone couldn't be a mage.

There's plenty of other way to handle it, but I always favored this one. Digging into myth, legends and all those IRL civilization lore is a good way to find inspiration.

It's not only that.

There is also the issue of magic coming in the form of prefabricated utility packages and the fact that those packages rarely stride beyond hitting stuff with a ball of fire that explodes on impact.

There is also the problem that there are no gameplay-relevant costs, risks or tradeoffs involved.

 

[Akarnir]

I think what people object to in videogame magic is more that the way it's done isn't interesting. It's always unexplained except in terms of mechanics and vague stuff about "energies" or "power of the gods." There is a lot of room for giving a more cogent, coherent explanation on how magic really works and also for turning that into gameplay, i.e. requiring the player to assemble objects of power, actually study and unearth knowledge in order to learn spells, that sort of thing. But most games, for reasons both of game balance and Awesome Button, just say "yeah I guess you can throw fireballs because you read a lot or something."

Think of the runes setup used in some older blobbers and most recently in Legend of Grimrock. The idea that you actually have to look up the appropriate runes to cast a spell is really, really cool. Similar ideas could be applied to another style of game, especially if the knowledge to cast powerful spells is hidden away and requires a quest, dungeon delve etc. to uncover.

When magic is made mundane like that it's no wonder why questions like "why isn't everyone a mage and why are there any problems in the world?" immediately come to the forefront.

Yeah basically that. I like the more folkloric definitions of magic. The ones that you tend to find in ancient myth, because it usually comes with a deep, philosophical meaning.

''Mana'', after all is a word that comes from the polynesian legends. It refers to an inner force within each individuals, that can then be used to affect the physical word (magic).

That's one example on how you can do it right. Most individuals wouldn't have the inner force to even light a candle. Everyone couldn't be a mage.

There's plenty of other way to handle it, but I always favored this one. Digging into myth, legends and all those IRL civilization lore is a good way to find inspiration.

It's not only that.

There is also the issue of magic coming in the form of prefabricated utility packages and the fact that those packages rarely stride beyond hitting stuff with a ball of fire that explodes on impact.

There is also the problem that there are no gameplay-relevant costs, risks or tradeoffs involved.

There's a lot of way to handle Magic items in a setting, and make sure they aren't just magic in a can, that would be mass produced and distributed to everyone.
It can be for example, an object that was in contact with a powerful mage for a long time, with the latter developing an emotional bond with it. Then it gets imprinted over time, by some of the mage's power.

That's not the only way, but it's one way to do it.

 

[sea]

One way to get around that problem is to have specific scenarios where you can use magic out of bounds. Obviously canned spells are a near-requirement of game balance as well as production, but there are plenty of situations you could put into a game where magic allows you to do things outside the realm of simply throwing spells.

In my Dragon Age mod for instance, I have several scenarios where you can use magic to disarm protective wards on a door, or remove the enchantments on an apparatus that allows you to bypass the cost required to normally use it, or to dispel sentries and render them non-threatening, etc. If you have enough special opportunities for magic-users to work outside of the system, it goes a long way towards making magic feel special and unique.

The ultimate way to do it in my opinion is to adopt a Fallout-style interaction system where you can use any spell on any object, just like you can use skills on objects as well. If you designed a game with this in mind then I think this would go a long way towards presenting magic as more than a set of combat abilities. But as it stands, doing a few special things here and there in dialogue is not a bad alternative.

 

[Akarnir]

There's also The hermeticists way of doing it, where alchemy (in this case) is extremely complicated to use, requires you to understand very abstract philosophical/mathematical/scientific concepts. And it's still an individual force, bound to an individual ''soul''/spirit/imagination/... . That would explain why it's fairly limited (because only the smartest guys use it properly), and it would still be impossible to see it mass produced like AAA battery, or have non sense like magitech.

One way to get around that problem is to have specific scenarios where you can use magic out of bounds. Obviously canned spells are a near-requirement of game balance as well as production, but there are plenty of situations you could put into a game where magic allows you to do things outside the realm of simply throwing spells.

In my Dragon Age mod for instance, I have several scenarios where you can use magic to disarm protective wards on a door, or remove the enchantments on an apparatus that allows you to bypass the cost required to normally use it, or to dispel sentries and render them non-threatening, etc. If you have enough special opportunities for magic-users to work outside of the system, it goes a long way towards making magic feel special and unique.

The ultimate way to do it in my opinion is to adopt a Fallout-style interaction system where you can use any spell on any object, just like you can use skills on objects as well. If you designed a game with this in mind then I think this would go a long way towards presenting magic as more than a set of combat abilities. But as it stands, doing a few special things here and there in dialogue is not a bad alternative.

Yeah, from a gameplay perspective that's how it should work.

I was speaking from a more general lore perspective though.

 

[Akarnir]

Anyone has any idea of When we should see more art assets?

What was the time lapse for Wasteland 2 for the first screens update? Could be comparable.

 

[waywardOne]

Epic/divine level campaigns are retarded from the start because the rules mortals are forced to follow keep getting eliminated. Of course a dev would love epic levels; there's no restrictions on mechanics or consistency. He can just make shit up as he goes along. Fuck this faggot wanting to whore out the bhaalspawn saga further just so he can Mary Sue himself into another plot. (in b4 spergers give bukkake to 3e/pf somehow getting this shit "right").

 

[Roguey]

Whee, SA finally took down its paywall. Wonder what they've been up to these past few weeks

Dear God, go look at rope kid's Formspring and check out all the lame nerds who are upset at the prospect of playing a mage who clobbers monsters with their spellbook like a badass. Apparently Grimoire Slam is a violation of the lore, in a game whose lore we don't actually know yet.
...
(Shit), if it was "staff slam" instead of "tome slam", everyone would think its like Gandalf v Balrog. Making it be a giant metalbound bigass book isn't any different.
...
rope kid please make one of the barks for grimoire slam "Time to hit the books!" so I can hear the howl of humourless nerds everywhere.
...
Wow, these Formspring kids really hate fun.
...
What's most confusing is that people exist who don't think that hitting someone (preferably in the face) with a magic book is completely awesome.
...
What is all this bullshit about using a tome to damage enemies in melee... as a mage none the less?! Jesus, next ropekid will tell us that we don't start in Candlekeep or something.
...
please make all your mages, regardless of sex or species, huge burly looking characters that cast spells by smacking people with their book just to spite idiots like that.
...
Some people just can not have fun, its a hell of an affliction.
...
I too also would love to have muscle wizards.

Grimoire Slam's target audience, I've found it. Goons of course.

Edit: Also graphix stuff to get hyped about

Josh, I remember this was answered in general terms some way back, but how are you guys planning on handling things like lighting? Is there any chance of dynamic lighting with the pre-baked backgrounds, or are you going for a shadow overlay, or?

Our levels are 2D renders, and yet... we do have dynamic lighting and it works in a way I would never have thought was possible. I want to save the full explanation for an update, but it was one of the biggest surprises to me when we started rendering out our test levels.

 

[Infinitron]

Roguey The real WTF is that an expert stalker like you doesn't shell out the money for an SA account.

Yeah, I've already seen those.

 

[Delterius]

Roguey's crazy, not stupid.

 

[Roguey]

Yeah, I've already seen those.

Well you didn't post them itt.

 

[coffeetable]

Our levels are 2D renders, and yet... we do have dynamic lighting and it works in a way I would never have thought was possible. I want to save the full explanation for an update, but it was one of the biggest surprises to me when we started rendering out our test levels.

I imagine it'll be along the lines of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F6JVZv2-k4

My first thought as to how it works is that each area comes with a low-poly 3D model as well as the 2D art. Raytrace with the 3D and then shade over the art as necessary.

 

[Kirtai]

That looks very nice.

 

[80Maxwell08]

Here's a new update.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63491-update-46-how-proto-typical/

 

[tuluse]

Did they really just tell us they have a beautiful animated waterfall and then not show it to us?

 

[Kirtai]

Indeed. And they followed up by saying the next update would be later than usual.

Teasing us

 

[Murk]

Huh... the image is already "animating"?

...

 

[J_C]

Did they really just tell us they have a beautiful animated waterfall and then not show it to us?

Yeah I was staring at the screen a minute, waiting for the animated gif to start...well animate. And then I found it wasn't a gif file at all.

 

[Stabwound]

That was a pretty pointless update. Just saying "we're alive."

It would have been nice to actually see that animated waterfall.

 

[Blaine]

That's amazing... it's the same screenshot of that waterfall that was shown before the campaign ended, and it's a JPEG.

Who the fuck even uses JPEG anymore? Fuck JPEG. PNGs and GIFs are all that's needed, unless you're storing a nuanced vector/graphics editor file.