Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

Stop associating gamism and balance...ism with each other by the way. One might have to be gamist to be a balanceist, but hardly the reverse.

 

[Haba]

Someone with 'average strength' cannot carry a suite of platemail all day long.

What, you can't carry 15 kg for a day?

For comparison, when I was in the military, the full package was 50 kg.

 

[Kz3r0]

Someone with 'average strength' cannot carry a suite of platemail all day long.

What, you can't carry 15 kg for a day?

For comparison, when I was in the military, the full package was 50 kg.

That's the problem with certain RPG mechanics, they are there more because basement dwellers think that things really work that way than for gameplay reasons.

 

[Grunker]

Someone with 'average strength' cannot carry a suite of platemail all day long.

What, you can't carry 15 kg for a day?

For comparison, when I was in the military, the full package was 50 kg.

Thank you both for illustrating another perfect example of why 360 degree realism in mechanics is total idiocy and unachievable.

 

[Roguey]

In my current run through IWD I used the tweak pack to make my bag of holding bottomless and able to hold anything so I'm already using the stash.

 

[Infinitron]

In my current run through IWD I used the tweak pack to make my bag of holding bottomless and able to hold anything so I'm already using the stash.

I hope you're only taking things out of it in towns, cheater.

 

[Grunker]

^ It's cheating either way

 

[Arkeus]

Someone with 'average strength' cannot carry a suite of platemail all day long.

What, you can't carry 15 kg for a day?

For comparison, when I was in the military, the full package was 50 kg.

If you think a man fit for military duty is 'average'...

 

[Haba]

Someone with 'average strength' cannot carry a suite of platemail all day long.

What, you can't carry 15 kg for a day?

For comparison, when I was in the military, the full package was 50 kg.

If you think a man fit for military duty is 'average'...

Uhm, it is the very example of that. The gear is designed for the "average man", it'd be pointless to make it for superhumans only.

One would assume that someone in medieval environment would be even more physically fit than modern day soldier.

This is why putting real life measurements into fantasy games is jarring for me. Thankfully imperial system is pure fantasy for me anyway, so I am able to suspend my disbelief.

 

[Mastermind]

And yet people are still able to immerse themselves in that piece of shit

Tells you all you need to know about 360 degree aspirations, haha.

People like you are the reason why we have dumbshit devs removing HUDs.

 

[Grunker]

And yet people are still able to immerse themselves in that piece of shit

Tells you all you need to know about 360 degree aspirations, haha.

People like you are the reason why we have dumbshit devs removing HUDs.

I am OPPOSED 360 degree realism in this thread you dipshit. The proverbial removal of the HUD is the exact thing I'm arguing against.

The level of cognitive function displayed here is staggering, people.

 

[Mastermind]

And yet people are still able to immerse themselves in that piece of shit

Tells you all you need to know about 360 degree aspirations, haha.

People like you are the reason why we have dumbshit devs removing HUDs.

I am OPPOSED 360 degree realism in this thread you dipshit. The proverbial removal of the HUD is the exact thing I'm arguing against.

The level of cognitive function displayed here is staggering, people.

Doesn't read that way when I can't be bothered to read the surrounding context.
Doesn't read that way even when I can be bothered to read the surrounding context either, you just come off schizo. Lay off the edginess maybe?

 

[Alex]

But did it hurt something? As I said, if there's a tangible benefit to it I don't mind it that much. Inventory mechanics have always been arbitrary - in Baldur's Gate you're carrying around five full sets of full plate, hauling it back to town. There is no difference between the completely unrealistic packmule characters of most RPGs and a teleportation device.

Hell, I think portable merchants are shit gameplay-wise unless you really have to earn them in the game (like after a hard fight in a secret quest), but they actually make the most fictional sense of any of these concepts

Platemail weighs 50, with 10 str you can carry 70.

Oh no, characters with super human strength can carry multiple suits of platemail.

I don't care if you show me the craziest bodybuilder in the world able to pull an eighteen-wheeler five miles. That nigger still doesn't have the physique to carry five suits of platemail around. 18 is pinnacle of normal human performance according to AD&D, and 18 strength grants you the ability to equip a full set of armor and fight tirelessly for 12 hours while slogging around with sets of additional plate slung over your shoulder.

360 degree arguments fail because they often conflict with themselves - like yours does here. The mechanics in Baldur's Gate were fine - weight limitations are great - but it isn't far removed in terms of realism from teleportation to a sack.

Both work via arbitrary abstraction.

Disucussing which kinds of abstractions we would like is much more fruitful than trying to enforce quote-unquote "realism" on our mechanics.

I am not really sure what you mean by "360 degrees realism" yet, but my point wasn't to make the game seem as realist as it can, but avoiding making it look like an abstract strategy game. It is ok that not any and all things are simulated, or even accounted for, but give us something of the setting to latch on. Like Ultima 7. It managed to give you a great sense of setting, not by simulating and accounting for every little detail, but by including several of them. People frequently commented that in Ultima 7 you could bake bread. They don't often comment that you can't bake a cake, or potatoes, or make Risotto. The question then isn't that it isn't perfect, but that it used its resources to help you feel inside the game world to great effect.

The point then of criticizing the inventory system, is that they mention abstractions in favor of the specific gameplay they are aiming for, stuff like regulating how you can access your inventory, but give us no mechanics or aspects of the game that are supposed to be "fluff driven". Now, I do think this kind of attitude is a bit biased. After all, they haven't actually started to discuss setting details, so it is fully possible that there will be lots of interesting stuff that makes the gameworld seem real, rather than a game board. But I find the comments we have had up to now a little worrying. Stuff like an inventory that doesn't make sense, level scaling, inability to rest in dungeons... These things don't break the imaginary side of the game by any means, but they do seem to point, at least to me, that these concerns have way less weight to Obsidian than balance or combat, for example.

 

[Roguey]

^ It's cheating either way

Removing tedious inventory management is how it should have been designed in the first place, instead of arbitrarily-placed limits on stacks and what can be placed in a bag of holding. I fixed a flaw and major source of irritation.

 

[Grunker]

But did it hurt something? As I said, if there's a tangible benefit to it I don't mind it that much. Inventory mechanics have always been arbitrary - in Baldur's Gate you're carrying around five full sets of full plate, hauling it back to town. There is no difference between the completely unrealistic packmule characters of most RPGs and a teleportation device.

Hell, I think portable merchants are shit gameplay-wise unless you really have to earn them in the game (like after a hard fight in a secret quest), but they actually make the most fictional sense of any of these concepts

Platemail weighs 50, with 10 str you can carry 70.

Oh no, characters with super human strength can carry multiple suits of platemail.

I don't care if you show me the craziest bodybuilder in the world able to pull an eighteen-wheeler five miles. That nigger still doesn't have the physique to carry five suits of platemail around. 18 is pinnacle of normal human performance according to AD&D, and 18 strength grants you the ability to equip a full set of armor and fight tirelessly for 12 hours while slogging around with sets of additional plate slung over your shoulder.

360 degree arguments fail because they often conflict with themselves - like yours does here. The mechanics in Baldur's Gate were fine - weight limitations are great - but it isn't far removed in terms of realism from teleportation to a sack.

Both work via arbitrary abstraction.

Disucussing which kinds of abstractions we would like is much more fruitful than trying to enforce quote-unquote "realism" on our mechanics.

I am not really sure what you mean by "360 degrees realism" yet, but my point wasn't to make the game seem as realist as it can, but avoiding making it look like an abstract strategy game. It is ok that not any and all things are simulated, or even accounted for, but give us something of the setting to latch on. Like Ultima 7. It managed to give you a great sense of setting, not by simulating and accounting for every little detail, but by including several of them. People frequently commented that in Ultima 7 you could bake bread. They don't often comment that you can't bake a cake, or potatoes, or make Risotto. The question then isn't that it isn't perfect, but that it used its resources to help you feel inside the game world to great effect.

The point then of criticizing the inventory system, is that they mention abstractions in favor of the specific gameplay they are aiming for, stuff like regulating how you can access your inventory, but give us no mechanics or aspects of the game that are supposed to be "fluff driven". Now, I do think this kind of attitude is a bit biased. After all, they haven't actually started to discuss setting details, so it is fully possible that there will be lots of interesting stuff that makes the gameworld seem real, rather than a game board. But I find the comments we have had up to now a little worrying. Stuff like an inventory that doesn't make sense, level scaling, inability to rest in dungeons... These things don't break the imaginary side of the game by any means, but they do seem to point, at least to me, that these concerns have way less weight to Obsidian than balance or combat, for example.

We don't disagree on any major point, I just don't teleporting inventory is really that important. My criticism of that system is much more related to the way the mechanics will end up working in terms of gameplay.

 

[CappenVarra]

I still think that people that design game rules and then try to make the game fiction fit with them have it backwards, though, at least in RPGs.

And this is an important distinction between what could arguably be called "old-school" and "new school" of RPG design. However, I didn't go to no school and this is not the thread to get into that particular topic... so just

 

[TripJack]

However, I didn't go to no school and this is not the thread to get into that particular topic

sure it is, this is a thread for everything and the kitchen sink just look at all those pages

 

[Kingston]

Why is this thread almost 700 pages long?

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Because of all the people saying "why is this thread almost X hundred pages long?"

 

[Shannow]

Why is this thread almost 700 pages long?

Every 100 pages unlock another level of the Mega-Dungeon. Didn't you read the thread?

 

[Lancehead]

Out of curiosity, anyone know what was the longest ever thread on the Codex?

 

[Grunker]

^ must be one of the best threads ever - Jaesun?

 

[tuluse]

Except not really, since you can always keep going back to the dungeon and get the rest of the loot you couldn't carry the first time. You could only achieve a true balance here if the game contained many areas that you couldn't return to, forcing the player to make a substantive choice. As it is, the game is only removing a false choice that only means something if you "LARP".

Yeah that was a weak argument, but I still don't like it. I don't see what's gained from hauling back 26 longswords that sell for 1 gold a piece.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Image on center monitor -- is that from PE?

vs http://instagram.com/p/Zb6QhBJx_X/

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah that was a weak argument, but I still don't like it. I don't see what's gained from hauling back 26 longswords that sell for 1 gold a piece.

I agree that it's silly, but you know, if people are gonna spend time doing that, you might as well make it as painless as possible. Hopefully the game is balanced such that you don't have to pick up everything to make a living.

Personally, I'm surprised that more people aren't pissed that the game doesn't have per-character inventories.