People News ObsidiLeaks: The Chris Avellone May of Rage Archive

[Humanity has risen!]

In fact it's incredibly disappointing. Codexers proud themselves on the claim that they never compromise toward anyone. And yet, their idol only has to show up and say "Boo!", and now people stop asking any critical questions and say "Hey, just to let you know, I always liked Torment.", uncritically believing how horrible a person Feargus is.

Come on man, the Grimoire thread was full of your posts apparently taking Cleve's promises at face value. Everyone has their quirks

In fact it's incredibly disappointing. Codexers proud themselves on the claim that they never compromise toward anyone. And yet, their idol only has to show up and say "Boo!", and now people stop asking any critical questions and say "Hey, just to let you know, I always liked Torment.", uncritically believing how horrible a person Feargus is.

Come on man, the Grimoire thread was full of your posts apparently taking Cleve's promises at face value. Everyone has their quirks

Well, for one, Cleve doesn't seem to have fueled the same sort of strange personality cult around him.

Furthermore, Grimoire was just a complex and well-designed game that meant no more than to entertain. It didn't purport to "change the way you view the human condition", or whatever Torment or most of his other games were about. So I guess I just don't get the big fascination for him in particular.

 

[Bohr]

Well, for one, Cleve doesn't seem to have fueled the same sort of strange personality cult around him.

nice

 

[CyberWhale]

Infinitron Instead of linking the Google Doc, you should have made a locked thread (a Clean version compared to the Raw original) which is composed of questions and Chris Avellone's responses. This way you aren't controlling the update frequency nor the availability of the source file, and many people won't be interested in swimming through all the shit about communism, unions and Nazism that is the original Raw thread.

 

[Haba]

Well, for one, Cleve doesn't seem to have fueled the same sort of strange personality cult around him.

LOL!

You are a funny guy HHR, I kill you last.

 

[Chris Avellone]

Isn't the defining characteristic of a sociopath precisely a lack of empathy?

Feargus is not a sociopath. What Feargus has is pre-millennial entitlement and a lack of empathy.

He continually makes decisions concerning employees without taking the time to ask how he would feel if situations were reversed. I’m not talking about me, I’m talking about the employees – ex: the refusal to pay back the paychecks for people who sacrificed - these employees understood empathy.

When he makes a decision, the decision is governed by how it benefits him, and if it feels fair – to him. So when Feargus told me he never promised to pay back employees, he was being genuine - he was focused on the promise part, not what was right.

This isn’t the best way to view a situation because if you're convinced the sun revolves around you, it's really hard to see the universe any other way.

Even putting employees aside, this entitlement caused tremendous problems with publishers, which I've already discussed. Even more concerning was when Feargus directly experienced being “unfairly” treated by publishers, that didn’t stop him from using the exact same practices with contractors and employees reporting to him – he didn’t take the time to translate his own experiences and see how they might apply to others should he do the same thing – he just passed the bad behavior along.

One could argue he has empathy and disregards it, but the end result is the same: he makes decisions accordingly.

 

[Prime Junta]

He sounds like he just doesn't have a particularly highly developed moral sense. Most people don't.

Things become unfortunate when that's combined with a position of power, where other people can't keep you in check anymore.

 

[FeelTheRads]

So inXile got it from that Monty dude and Obsidian from MCA.

Who's next? Who's next?
Burn them all down!

 

[Bohr]

So inXile got it from that Monty dude and Obsidian from MCA.

Who's next? Who's next?

I think Vogel is looking around nervously right now

 

[Azarkon]

Isn't Jeff Vogel his own company?

Guess he can always war with himself.

 

[Ulrox]

Isn't the defining characteristic of a sociopath precisely a lack of empathy?

Feargus is not a sociopath. What Feargus has is pre-millennial entitlement and a lack of empathy.

He continually makes decisions concerning employees without taking the time to ask how he would feel if situations were reversed. I’m not talking about me, I’m talking about the employees – ex: the refusal to pay back the paychecks for people who sacrificed - these employees understood empathy.

When he makes a decision, the decision is governed by how it benefits him, and if it feels fair – to him. So when Feargus told me he never promised to pay back employees, he was being genuine - he was focused on the promise part, not what was right.

This isn’t the best way to view a situation because if you're convinced the sun revolves around you, it's really hard to see the universe any other way.

Even putting employees aside, this entitlement caused tremendous problems with publishers, which I've already discussed. Even more concerning was when Feargus directly experienced being “unfairly” treated by publishers, that didn’t stop him from using the exact same practices with contractors and employees reporting to him – he didn’t take the time to translate his own experiences and see how they might apply to others should he do the same thing – he just passed the bad behavior along.

One could argue he has empathy and disregards it, but the end result is the same: he makes decisions accordingly.

He sounds like he'd make an excellent president though!

(ps, I wanted to edit the test to say : (Words) but I figured it was heresy to tamper with the words of MCA) ^_^

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

The strange thing is that I remember Feargus talking openly in interviews about a lot of things MCA complains about.

 

[Puteo]

Feargus is not a sociopath. What Feargus has is pre-millennial entitlement and a lack of empathy.

He continually makes decisions concerning employees without taking the time to ask how he would feel if situations were reversed. I’m not talking about me, I’m talking about the employees – ex: the refusal to pay back the paychecks for people who sacrificed - these employees understood empathy.

When he makes a decision, the decision is governed by how it benefits him, and if it feels fair – to him. So when Feargus told me he never promised to pay back employees, he was being genuine - he was focused on the promise part, not what was right.

This isn’t the best way to view a situation because if you're convinced the sun revolves around you, it's really hard to see the universe any other way.

Even putting employees aside, this entitlement caused tremendous problems with publishers, which I've already discussed. Even more concerning was when Feargus directly experienced being “unfairly” treated by publishers, that didn’t stop him from using the exact same practices with contractors and employees reporting to him – he didn’t take the time to translate his own experiences and see how they might apply to others should he do the same thing – he just passed the bad behavior along.

One could argue he has empathy and disregards it, but the end result is the same: he makes decisions accordingly.

Sounds like a textbook case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

The DSM-5 indicates that persons with NPD usually display some or all of the following symptoms, typically without the commensurate qualities or accomplishments:

1. Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from other people
2. Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc.
3. Self-perception of being unique, superior, and associated with high-status people and institutions
4. Needing continual admiration from others
5. Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others
6. Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain
7. Unwilling to empathize with the feelings, wishes, and needs of other people
8. Intensely envious of others, and the belief that others are equally envious of them
9. Pompous and arrogant demeanor

So far we've heard Feargus stories for every symptom except 3, 8, and maybe 9.

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

OK, seriously, has the video game development scene always been like this? I doubt this is something unique to Obsidian or Feargus, honestly, given the stories I remember hearing elsewhere, but is it a new thing or is it par for the course?

 

[SausageInYourFace]

So, I think this has been asked already and I may have missed the answer:

MCA has talked about how he thought that Feargus had his back during the time of PS:T development but how that later turned out to be a lie. Has Chris since gone into the specifics of what Feargus actually said in that conversation that was so desillusional to him?

 

[Latro]

Back in 2015, right around the same time Chris Avellone left, Feargus gave a talk at IGDA Montreal where he was quite frank about the aggressive culture at Interplay and how it affected him: http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=9929

Unfortunately it seems that the video has been taken down, but I jotted down some summaries in the Obsidian thread while watching it: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-discussion-thread.84849/page-85#post-3962999

One of the reasons I don't think Feargus is a sociopath is that he seems regretful about these things.

I would also resist that Ferg is a "sociopath"; my issue was always lack of empathy of anyone in the trenches, which he would understand if aware.

It's more than a lack of empathy, it's a lack of self-awareness. I don't think Feargus is evil or wouldn't react to someone getting murdered in front of him, but there's a certain level of awareness the guy seems to lack when it comes to even stuff like his reading list. It's ok for him to act in the name of "good business" because he genuinely isn't aware of an issue with it, why not shit on you for the good of the company? Why not shit on the company for the good of his family? Why not have you sign an NDA barring you from all work or filing litigation, even in the midst of a family emergency? It's good business, he read it in a book somewhere. At the very least, it's a sociopathic tendency.



i have a degree in armchair psychology, you can trust me

 

[Big Wrangle]

OK, seriously, has the video game development scene always been like this? I doubt this is something unique to Obsidian or Feargus, honestly, given the stories I remember hearing elsewhere, but is it a new thing or is it par for the course?

Yeah it's always been like that one way or the other, the game industry is notable for the ridiculous crunchtime. I don't get it was inherently that shitty, but it got bigger over time for sure. Bigger names began to speak about it like Avellone here and union agitator Sawyer, which resulted in this becoming a conversation. And honestly, we need big names to talk about that; the average goonie gets dismissed or, even worse, laughed at for having the ridiculous expectations of non-shitty work conditions

 

[PorkBarrellGuy]

OK, seriously, has the video game development scene always been like this? I doubt this is something unique to Obsidian or Feargus, honestly, given the stories I remember hearing elsewhere, but is it a new thing or is it par for the course?

Yeah it's always been like that one way or the other, the game industry is notable for the ridiculous crunchtime. I don't get it was inherently that shitty, but it got bigger over time for sure. Bigger names began to speak about it like Avellone here and union agitator Sawyer, which resulted in this becoming a conversation. And honestly, we need big names to talk about that; the average goonie gets dismissed or, even worse, laughed at for having the ridiculous expectations of non-shitty work conditions.

Great, now I feel shitty about my hobby and slightly glad I never pursued a career in game dev or any remotely related field. Well, first step to fixing shit is to acknowledge it's broken, I guess.

 

[MechMessiah]

Seems Germany is the last bastion of free press

https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/chr...will-werde-ich-das-unterstuetzen,3329455.html

Russia:
http://www.rpgnuke.ru/2018/05/07/kris-avellon-vs-obsidian-otkroveniya-chast-1.html
http://www.rpgnuke.ru/2018/05/08/kris-avellon-vs-obsidian-otkroveniya-chast-2.html

 

[Outlander]

Isn't Jeff Vogel his own company?

Guess he can always war with himself.

 

[Jenkem]

tides of numanera was shit

 

[azimuth]

OK, seriously, has the video game development scene always been like this? I doubt this is something unique to Obsidian or Feargus, honestly, given the stories I remember hearing elsewhere, but is it a new thing or is it par for the course?

This is not unique to anything. There's a reason so many people are saying "this reminds me of my workplace..." This is the longest Dilbert strip I have ever seen. It's one of the most common stories in the world: the "incompetent, arrogant business guy" always makes all the money and has all the power, while poor little creative and talented Dilbert goes on puttering at the orbit impotently complaining a lot.

 

[Tigranes]

Yep. Doesn't excuse it, but it's an incredibly common story - and specifically, 'competent management by well documented best practices' is a rare beast in the video game industry.

 

[SCO]

More like the common story of union busting, collusion and anti-union culture entrenchment for arrogant shits that think they can dictate terms (but are actually utterly replaceable 99% of the time).

 

[Invictus]

I always thought that having all those problems with brilliant but flawed games spoke more of Fergus’ skills as an administrator and manager than the talent he had around him, and Obsidian’s record with publishers speaks for itself
As for repeating the same behavior as the publishers who put him and his employees under such pressure is a dog eat dog mentality that really are the bleak picture of the videogame industry... just think of it; the videogame industry makes more money than the movie and sports industries combined and they don’t have even an union exactly because of the wage mongers like Fergus who exploit talent and then go home thinking they are the “good” guys

 

[stony3k]

Yep. Doesn't excuse it, but it's an incredibly common story - and specifically, 'competent management by well documented best practices' is a rare beast in the video game industry.

FTFY - it's rare in any industry