On NwN2

[racofer]

...but what rpg worth its salt doesn't have some mindless 'grinding' portions in it?

Bloodlines.

 

[Neverwinter Knight]

Bloodlines.

Total shit.

 

[Jaesun]

...but what rpg worth its salt doesn't have some mindless 'grinding' portions in it?

Bloodlines.

 

[Shannow]

...but what rpg worth its salt doesn't have some mindless 'grinding' portions in it?

Bloodlines.

Tunnels

 

[Elwro]

can skip the combat in them

 

[MetalCraze]

Yes if you decided to spend points into a crappy stealth skill or your character has an invisibility spell

 

[Bluebottle]

I've got nothing better to do, so I'll bite.

Mediocre plotline
It's like someone rented a library book on the 100 most commonly used fantasy tropes, and insisted on squeezing all of them into one game. Farm boy comes good, hidden past, home town attacked, anicent evil ressurected, Mcguffin shattered into arbitrary number of pieces, McGuffin reforged, evil banished, world saved. I understand the excuse that they wanted to do something Epic, but (and this really can't be stated enough in the sphere of computer games) Epic does not simply mean clichéd. Fantasy should never seem pedestrain, and in NWN2 it most certainly did.

Uninspiring characters
Again, full of cliché. You could quite easily communicate most of the characters to someone in a couple of words (sarcastic elf, scatter-brain thief, violent dwarf, fucking hippie, nihilist ranger). There were a couple of memorable characters (Ammon Jerro and Sand, spring to mind for different reasons), but even those with potential (like Ammon), never really came to fruition owing to the lackluster stage on which they were performing.

Mediocre gameplay
TBH, had the plot and characters been better I could have stood the mediocre gameplay, but as that was all there was to keep a player going, it deserves pointing out . Camera was awkward (though I do think that is mostly overstated), items were too prevalent and as such didn't feel as if they were worth anything, combat was, on the whole, too easy, with too few interesting encounters (though there were one or two).

After considering those elements that let it down, there really is little to recommend in any way about it.


In its defence it did have a couple of interesting sections (Ammon's lair full of demons and the trial), but these were way too rare (and the trial was massively let down by the fact that its results didn't matter at all).

 

[Elwro]

Yes if you decided to spend points into a crappy stealth skill or your character has an invisibility spell

Actually, the stealth skill is not crappy, because you can avoid a lot of combat with it.

 

[Shannow]

I really don't get why codexians like that crappy Trial so much. Is it just because there is a lot of dialogue with skill checks involved? Do codexians jizz over that stuff just for its own sake?
You start out gathering evidence (which is pretty cool even if very unrealistic) until Sand tells you that you have enough (which sucks). Then you just get a *evidence was presented*-message and that is that. Hardly any further mention of the evidence. Then you get that laughably bad excuse of a Trial. In a world with *sense truth* and divination spells the whole thing was superfluous. Torio never manages to build a case against you. No sensible motive and when she tries to expose your evil warmongering character by having Shandra "admit" that she was attacked and her farm burned whenever you showed up you don't get to answer that you always showed up in time to save her. You never get to clearly state that your companions can confirm that you spent all time together and there was no way for you to disappear for some village razing. You never clearly state: The witness saw somebody who looked like me with a bunch of people who were not my companions. Well, evidence shows a powder of shapechanging and my companions attest to me always being in their presence. It is clear that somebody *sharp look at Torio* is trying to frame me.
Instead it all boils down to a popularity contest where you choose the answers where you you have the most skill ranks invested. Little to no possibility to fuck up even though it wouldn't have meant game over. Or you just skip the whole thing by letting Sand take over
And then, to compound the fail that is "the Trial" up to that point it doesn't matter whether you win or not. You fight anyway...
I'd take the orc caves over that crap any day.

 

[Shannow]

Yes if you decided to spend points into a crappy stealth skill or your character has an invisibility spell

Actually, the stealth skill is not crappy, because you can avoid a lot of combat with it.

It doesn't work all that well. And stealthing through the tunnels is a pain in the ass that I'd also define as grinding. Obfuscation works quite well but that requires you to have it...
I raise the tunnels by a Society of Leopold.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I really don't get why codexians like that crappy Trial so much. Is it just because there is a lot of dialogue with skill checks involved? Do codexians jizz over that stuff just for its own sake?
You start out gathering evidence (which is pretty cool even if very unrealistic) until Sand tells you that you have enough (which sucks). Then you just get a *evidence was presented*-message and that is that. Hardly any further mention of the evidence. Then you get that laughably bad excuse of a Trial. In a world with *sense truth* and divination spells the whole thing was superfluous. Torio never manages to build a case against you. No sensible motive and when she tries to expose your evil warmongering character by having Shandra "admit" that she was attacked and her farm burned whenever you showed up you don't get to answer that you always showed up in time to save her. You never get to clearly state that your companions can confirm that you spent all time together and there was no way for you to disappear for some village razing. You never clearly state: The witness saw somebody who looked like me with a bunch of people who were not my companions. Well, evidence shows a powder of shapechanging and my companions attest to me always being in their presence. It is clear that somebody *sharp look at Torio* is trying to frame me.
Instead it all boils down to a popularity contest where you choose the answers where you you have the most skill ranks invested. Little to no possibility to fuck up even though it wouldn't have meant game over. Or you just skip the whole thing by letting Sand take over
And then, to compound the fail that is "the Trial" up to that point it doesn't matter whether you win or not. You fight anyway...
I'd take the orc caves over that crap any day.

Shannow has a pretty good point. The presence of skill checks just for the sake of it doesn't make it good, otherwise SoZ would be a terrific RPG because it's full of skillchecks. It's just they don't matter, and might as well not be there.

Also regarding Bloodlines, being able to avoid combat is certainly a good thing - if it's presented as a viable alternative. But if combat in an RPG sucks so much that you avoid it just so you don't have to endure it, well that's a different story.

 

[Wyrmlord]

A post in defense of Neverwinter Nights 2
by RPG Codex Forums poster, Wyrmlord

Many pausable real-time games are set with the problematic mechanic of how they determine start/end rules for combat. It is a truly baffling system that plagues Infinity Engine games and the early pausable real-time games of the decade. The problem here is that winning a battle may just come down to how quickly you press the pause button.

A combat round in a typical PRT game is started not when you spot the enemy, but rather when the enemy spots you. You could have been the first to move towards and place yourself in front of the enemy, but the enemy still gets to initiate the actual combat on his own terms.

This was remedied in Neverwinter Nights 2, where both sides, upon engaging each other, start a timer which ticks down before both can start fighting. Hence, combat rounds begin on fair and equal terms for both sides, and it happens precisely and mathematically.

Interestingly, if you save right at the beginning of any combat situation, reloading shows you and your enemies standing right next to each other, because reloads start at the end of the round in which you last saved.

An additional benefit that Neverwinter Nights 2 provides is that you can queue up all the actions for each round, and you can see precisely which round of combat and which action is being executed within it. You can even change and replace the series of actions for future rounds in advance.

What works especially well is that any change in actions between rounds will not come into effect until the end of the current round and the beginning of the next one. Meaning that if you decide to move away, it will happen after the enemy has made the attack in that round, and it will not lead to a situation where you get attacked by a meelee weapon from 10 feet away.

This is also complemented by a system where you can right-click an individual enemy, causing his portrait and hit points to be displayed on the top left of the screen, and all action related to combat will be automatically effected on the selected enemy. It similiarly works for buffing player characters and allies.

All this amounts to probably the most usable pausable real-time system to date, where every necessary information is displayed to you in a feedback window and the round-action window and all actions can be effectively micromanaged ahead of several rounds.

Moreover, not only can every party member be effectively micromanaged, they can also be macromanaged as well. The AI settings allow you to automate any action that you wish to be initiated in any situation and also turn them off when you want a greater degree of control. All fighters can be put on a stance to protect your spellcaster, your clerics can be set to a buffing mode, and at the same time, you can tell the spellcasters to not do a single thing unless you tell them to do so.

Pausable real-time is not and never will be as deep as turn-based combat, but Neverwinter Nights 2 provides such a precise system for working in a 3D engine with real-time movement of enemies. Your focus is put where it really matters - your stats and your choices in combat. And this really shows in various combat situations where even generic enemies like thieves and ordinary mages manage to outdo you by broad tactical decisions such as casting grease spells and attempting to use sneak attacks on you. You on your side can still completely counter the enemy with negative effects from spells, bard songs, and buffs, while also using the right equipment. Unlike other pausable real-time games, you don't get to feel like you can try your luck despite bad and reckless decisions.

One signficant moment in playing NWN2 was when my Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist buffed himself up with Greater Haste, Greater Invisibility, and other such spells to provide concealment, more speed, and more attacks per round. He ran straight into a large group of Myrkul's soldiers wielding halberds, tough armour, and high hitpoints.

My character quickly finished all of them down. He ran into them, managed to score a whole bunch of attacks before they could react, got initiative once the combat round started, attacked several enemies at a time due to his monk abilities, and also dodged their attacks completely because of an AC boosted all the way to 60. At the same time, without those buffs, each of them was capable of killing me instantly in a few blows.

The point here is that NWN2 gives prime importance to your statistics and your build, and nothing else matters. Whereas in even some of the better pausable real-time games like Icewind Dale, winning a certain battle with a similiarly large group of strong enemies can easily be done by just running back and forth and luring a few enemies at a time to kill them with some luck; winning fights in NWN2 comes down to all the decisions you make before the first round is initiated, and that's what translates into victory, and not any real-time twitching.

What does hurt the game is the complete lack of combat variety and interesting encounter design and several places, and it seems the makers of the game did not realise that a good system means nothing when you don't have a proper implementation to go along with it.

 

[Andhaira]

TESLA!

 

[RK47]

A post in defense of Neverwinter Nights 2
by RPG Codex Forums poster, Wyrmlord
All this amounts to probably the most usable pausable real-time system to date, where every necessary information is displayed to you in a feedback window and the round-action window and all actions can be effectively micromanaged ahead of several rounds.

no

 

[Gragt]

That does it, Wyrmlord is Chefe.

 

[Darth Roxor]

A post in defense of Neverwinter Nights 2
by RPG Codex Forums poster, Wyrmlord
All this amounts to probably the most usable pausable real-time system to date, where every necessary information is displayed to you in a feedback window and the round-action window and all actions can be effectively micromanaged ahead of several rounds.

NO

 

[racofer]

Yes if you decided to spend points into a crappy stealth skill or your character has an invisibility spell

Actually, the stealth skill is not crappy, because you can avoid a lot of combat with it.

It doesn't work all that well. And stealthing through the tunnels is a pain in the ass that I'd also define as grinding.

No it's not.

 

[racofer]

*Wall of Text*

The only flaw, for me, with NWN2 and it's expansions, is the abysmal engine, UI and camera (what? the CAMERA?) used on it. Otherwise it would be as enjoyable as the KotORs in my book.

But what good is an interesting game when it runs covered in poo poo and gently caresses the players at every chance?

 

[Vault Dweller]

A post in defense of Neverwinter Nights 2
by RPG Codex Forums poster, Wyrmlord

More like "A post showing why NWN2 was as good if not better than IWD2."

 

[Wyrmlord]

Well, for the record, I am not the biggest fan of the OC. Hated it, in fact, until it started to get really good, with stuff like fighting the psychic lizardman, and several other mid-to-late game fights which managed to be genuinely challenging. It was still too little and too late.

But I think the system started to shine in MotB, where despite the epic levels, they started doing a better job of encounter design. Instead of NWN2's copypaste swarms of simple enemies and many filler combat situations, you had more sparsely spaced fights with smaller but stronger groups of enemies, and with more options between you and them.

Like the fights with the undead in the lower level of the temple. You had ancient vampire monks who would burst out to attack you, and I countered them with a quick grease spell, and making sure to cast the necessary offensive spells at them right at the beginning, so that they would be worn down enough to finish off without much problems. I never wanted to face those things in direct combat because of their high ACs and ability to knock you down and pummel several attacks on you instantly.

 

[Gragt]

But I think the system started to shine in MotB, where despite the epic levels, they started doing a better job of encounter design. Instead of NWN2's copypaste swarms of simple enemies and many filler combat situations, you had more sparsely spaced fights with smaller but stronger groups of enemies, and with more options between you and them.

This I agree with. Also I appreciated that they tied the spirit-eater mechanics to combat because depending on how you developped it it gave you different options and "favoured" enemies.

But if I want to play a real-time with pause dungeon crawler, I'll likely pick Icewind Dale or its sequel than NWN2 or even MotB.

 

[Shannow]

Many pausable real-time games are set with the problematic mechanic of how they determine start/end rules for combat. It is a truly baffling system that plagues Infinity Engine games and the early pausable real-time games of the decade. The problem here is that winning a battle may just come down to how quickly you press the pause button.

No, never was a problem. You're making things up.

A combat round in a typical PRT game is started not when you spot the enemy, but rather when the enemy spots you. You could have been the first to move towards and place yourself in front of the enemy, but the enemy still gets to initiate the actual combat on his own terms.

Even if it's true it is completely irrelevant since you can buff outside of combat.

This was remedied in Neverwinter Nights 2, where both sides, upon engaging each other, start a timer which ticks down before both can start fighting. Hence, combat rounds begin on fair and equal terms for both sides, and it happens precisely and mathematically.

Anoth "solution to a non-existant problem.

Interestingly, if you save right at the beginning of any combat situation, reloading shows you and your enemies standing right next to each other, because reloads start at the end of the round in which you last saved.

How is that positive? Saving during combat/with nearby enemies is cheating.

An additional benefit that Neverwinter Nights 2 provides is that you can queue up all the actions for each round, and you can see precisely which round of combat and which action is being executed within it. You can even change and replace the series of actions for future rounds in advance.

Possible in NWN1 and for some reason restricted to 4 rounds in NWN2. Not to mention that queuing up 4 rounds in advance speaks of a game that could play itself and doesn't need any kind of strategy/tactical adaption from the player.

What works especially well is that any change in actions between rounds will not come into effect until the end of the current round and the beginning of the next one. Meaning that if you decide to move away, it will happen after the enemy has made the attack in that round, and it will not lead to a situation where you get attacked by a meelee weapon from 10 feet away.

Which didn't happen in IE games either.

This is also complemented by a system where you can right-click an individual enemy, causing his portrait and hit points to be displayed on the top left of the screen, and all action related to combat will be automatically effected on the selected enemy. It similiarly works for buffing player characters and allies.

Only that r-c was used for opening up special char-menues, too, didn't work half the time and was laggy for no reason as the rest of the NWN2 UI.

All this amounts to probably the most usable pausable real-time system to date, where every necessary information is displayed to you in a feedback window and the round-action window and all actions can be effectively micromanaged ahead of several rounds.

All this amounts to one of the most un-usable RTwP systems up to date due to the lack of the most basic auto-pause, a feedback window that doesn't give more information than in most previous RTwP games, laggy interface, stupid camera and gameplay that is so un-challenging that you can plan/queue up 4 rounds ahead.

Moreover, not only can every party member be effectively micromanaged, they can also be macromanaged as well. The AI settings allow you to automate any action that you wish to be initiated in any situation and also turn them off when you want a greater degree of control. All fighters can be put on a stance to protect your spellcaster, your clerics can be set to a buffing mode, and at the same time, you can tell the spellcasters to not do a single thing unless you tell them to do so.

No. That's simply not true. Without Tony_K NWN2 doesn't have any AI worth speaking of. And while Tony_K certainly improved it it's still not capable of what you claim. Not to mention that IE games already had all that.

Pausable real-time is not and never will be as deep as turn-based combat

Wow, such a wall of txt and it took so long to say something of significance.

but Neverwinter Nights 2 provides such a precise system for working in a 3D engine with real-time movement of enemies.

Increadibly imprecise you mean.

Your focus is put where it really matters - your stats and your choices in combat. And this really shows in various combat situations where even generic enemies like thieves and ordinary mages manage to outdo you by broad tactical decisions such as casting grease spells and attempting to use sneak attacks on you. You on your side can still completely counter the enemy with negative effects from spells, bard songs, and buffs, while also using the right equipment. Unlike other pausable real-time games, you don't get to feel like you can try your luck despite bad and reckless decisions.

??? Speaking out of your arse? Utter nonsense.

One signficant moment in playing NWN2 was when my Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist buffed himself up with Greater Haste, Greater Invisibility, and other such spells to provide concealment, more speed, and more attacks per round. He ran straight into a large group of Myrkul's soldiers wielding halberds, tough armour, and high hitpoints.

One significant moment in NWN2 was when I sent my Bard/Fighter/Rogue/Weapons Master/Eldritch Knight/Divine Champion/Blachguard to kill some kittens while I was on the loo taking a dump... Eh I mean, did your comment have any point?

My character quickly finished all of them down. He ran into them, managed to score a whole bunch of attacks before they could react, got initiative once the combat round started, attacked several enemies at a time due to his monk abilities, and also dodged their attacks completely because of an AC boosted all the way to 60. At the same time, without those buffs, each of them was capable of killing me instantly in a few blows.

Ah, soloing some mediocre enemies with your crappy char would have lead to your death without some standard buffs... Tell us more

The point here is that NWN2 gives prime importance to your statistics and your build, and nothing else matters. Whereas in even some of the better pausable real-time games like Icewind Dale, winning a certain battle with a similiarly large group of strong enemies can easily be done by just running back and forth and luring a few enemies at a time to kill them with some luck; winning fights in NWN2 comes down to all the decisions you make before the first round is initiated, and that's what translates into victory, and not any real-time twitching.

Yeah, I remember all those situations where I was confronted with groups of difficult enemies and lured the... No, no actially there was not a single such situation. Winning in NWN2 is a easy due to rest anywhere. Only takes a few seconds. You won't every be surprised and caught with your pants down. And apart from 3-4 fights NWN2 was so easy that you don't need to make decisions past "attack".

What does hurt the game is the complete lack of combat variety and interesting encounter design and several places, and it seems the makers of the game did not realise that a good system means nothing when you don't have a proper implementation to go along with it.

Started off as your second sensible comment and was then destroyed by calling NWN2's system "good".

And racofer, yes. Yes it is.

 

[Shannow]

Like the fights with the undead in the lower level of the temple. You had ancient vampire monks who would burst out to attack you, and I countered them with a quick grease spell, and making sure to cast the necessary offensive spells at them right at the beginning, so that they would be worn down enough to finish off without much problems. I never wanted to face those things in direct combat because of their high ACs and ability to knock you down and pummel several attacks on you instantly.

Grease? At monks? The class with highest saves + evasion? That slowed them down by 2 seconds, at most. And what high AC? NWN2 nerfed monks to hell and back (compared to NWN1)...

 

[doctor_kaz]

Yeah NWN2 was pretty good. It suffers from legacy issues that trace back to the original NWN, which was a much shittier game.

 

[Shannow]

Yeah NWN2 was pretty good. It suffers from legacy issues that trace back to the original NWN, which was a much shittier game.

NWN OC was certainly much worse than NWN2's. And you're certainly right with the legacy issues but NWN's engine was actually much more solid. I recently replayed SoU, HotU and Adam Miller's mods and it was astounding how much better the overall "feeling" is. Loading times under 2 seconds, a camera that only has to be manipulated every other minute or so, more interesting stuff in terms of classes and abilities, precise and accurate control, it took way longer for the uber loot to arrive and ruin the game (yeah, that point's not really engine related but stil worth mentioning). NWN2 only has better graphics and slight UI improvements (fastcast UI and the stuff for bard songs, combat stances, etc). I'd throw out the better graphics for the superior loading times in a second.