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On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

Self-Ejected

Jack

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Exactly, now is the time to kickstart our civilization with an easy victory. If we let this opportunity slip past us because of some bleeding heart keeper it would be a damn shame.
We have enough food to feed both ourselves and fifty additional people quite easily because of our skill at animal domestication. I believe that we can take on these newcomers, make use of their skills (i.e. fishing, boats) and hopefully integrate them into our tribe peacefully. We don't have to go to war with these people - deft diplomacy now will work better in the long-term than subjugating a bunch of helpless, starving people who might rebel down the road. If we play this right, we can "conquer" this tribe without any loss of life.
As I understand it A is only giving them help. Food, possibly tools etc. It does not necessary give us anything, why would they want to join us just because we offer support? As for a possible future rebellion I think we can risk it, the rewards are just too great for us to not enslave them.
 

Jick Magger

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I'm leaning towards B right now, if only because the hunters are definitely getting restless and we should try to keep them happy.

But as it stands, I'm going with A, no need to start shooting fish in a barrel just yet.

EDIT: Flip-flopping to B, may as well kick them while they're down so they can't get back up.
 

oscar

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no need to start shooting fish in a barrel just yet.

Uh, so we should only attack people who have a good chance of kicking our ass?

force them to share their secrets

Is a lot more certain and direct than hoping they'll teach us if we're nice to them and give them some food. What will likely with A is that we'll get a short-term relationship boost that'll be lost in thirty years time (as their descendants forget our generosity and we inevitably begin to fight).

There really is no logic in picking A, unless your trying to meta us into pacifism. We piss off the hunters further (and they're right, why did we bother to craft these weapons if we're not going to let them use them on anyone), allow a long-term rival to establish themselves and are less likely to get a tech from it.
 

Lindblum

Augur
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We've meta gamed long enough.
B this is our land. Also best to gain early war experience.

Have them worship us after we are done with them.
 

Kz3r0

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Why we can't help them sub conditione that they teach us their secrets?
 

Jick Magger

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Because that's not what's best in life, I guess.

I do agree that we've been a little too pacifistic for awhile now, and this does provide a good chance to develop a reputation amongst the other tribes. By the time our hunters reach there a few of the ships would've left, and they can go on to tell anyone who they see that there are a bunch of crazy motherfuckers on the big rock that reaches for the heavens with weapons of pitch-blackness who skin people alive and eat babies on sight. Maybe that'll keep anyone else from coming too close.
 

Internet

Scholar
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B, we can assimilate their technology through conquest and appease the hunters. Plus, these people sound like an easy enough prey.
 

Monty

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Edit: Have been swayed by Vernydar's passionate argument.

Voting A.

But if this tribe cause us trouble or refuse to share their canoe technology then I'm going to vote in favour of getting medieval on their asses....
 

Vernydar

Learned
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Ok people, sorry for being late, but we have a problem here. And the problem is NOT this small tribe.

Did anyone notice this in the post? "Several of the men appeared wounded or crippled"

WHO or WHAT attacked that tribe recently? What happened, where are these possible enemies?

Right now, I'm leaning towards an enemy, hostile tribe. They are not fleeing from the fire, they saw us and though we would attack them like someone else did before.

So, with this in mind, who cares about what the hunters feel or what the tamers want. We need information, not on technology, not on food, but on this potentially hostile tribe. I will even venture where they most likely are. Since these 50 men are NOT fleeing downriver (which they could with the canoe), and considering they were scouting upriver, and considering also they're now fleeing toward the plains, I think this enemy tribe is downriver, near the hills.

Now, let's talk options. C is OUT. We gain no knowledge, no tech, nothing, we stay in our little hole and cover our heads. Suicidal. So, either A or B.

The pros of A are that we may gain 50 more people, which would be very good in case of that other hostile tribe comes after us. Numerical advantage you know. Also, if we rescue them from an enemy and take them into our tribe, they WILL give us their technology. We would be together against a common foe.

B is a lot worse in my opinion. Sure we get some combat experience, and some unwilling slaves. They are not the same of having 50 more people in the tribe. And also we may fail to get some of that tech, and they may be reticent on what befall upon them.

I seriously suggest you all consider this well, this small tribe is not a problem, but the enemy just behind might be lethal. We need information, technology and more people able to fight

A Pacific assimilation in order to gain advantages for the upcoming war with the tribe that harassed this small tribe.
 
Self-Ejected

Jack

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Pacific assimilation my ass, they will gladly take our food and pelts and then they will be on their merry way without giving us any useful knowledge. Leaving us to get buttraped by the incoming horde. We will be dead meat if we do not get our shit together and stop wasting these opportunities.
 
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Ok people, sorry for being late, but we have a problem here. And the problem is NOT this small tribe.

Did anyone notice this in the post? "Several of the men appeared wounded or crippled"

WHO or WHAT attacked that tribe recently? What happened, where are these possible enemies?

Right now, I'm leaning towards an enemy, hostile tribe. They are not fleeing from the fire, they saw us and though we would attack them like someone else did before.
I suppose they could be survivors of some disaster and the their scout was just spooked by us. But your explanation does make more sense. Why else would they be evacuating in such a hurry? Yes, they've seen fire, but they don't know the size of our tribe, they haven't seen our weapons and we haven't actually done anything to them. Yet.

Edit:

If we help them they will have no reason to not give us any information they could have (especially on the size and location of the hostile tribe). There is a very good chance they will accept our offer of refuge. We gain 50 more people and all the info they have for no cost.

And how is attacking them going to help us get that information any easier? Most of their warriors and leaders (the people that actually know what we need) are going to end up dead - a condition most unhelpful to interrogation. Which is already going to be hard enough given that we almost certainly don't speak the same language. Exchange of information generally goes much easier if the other side is willing to work with us and not resentful of being massacred for no fucking reason. Oh, and what are we going to do with the survivors - make them slaves and never turn our backs at them while we are at war for our lives with the real threat?
 

Jick Magger

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How do we know that they'll react hostilely to use when they learned we killed the people they were chasing? 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend', after all. Taking these people in will only earn us a gaggle of cripples and cowards and guarantee this supposed enemy tribe will try and kill us. If instead they land on the beaches to confront them and only find a burnt out shell of their former camp with bodies hanging from the trees and their heads on sticks then maybe they'll be convinced to stay the fuck away. If not, then it's a three day hike to us and we have a major defensive advantage, let the fuckers come.
 

Vernydar

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With all due respect, this reasoning only works because you're considering a standard enemy.

All we know for sure is that these people have confronted some violent threat, and that they lost. We can suppose it's a hostile tribe. But intimidating them leaving impaled people? That ONLY makes sense if you know what they are facing. If you take for granted that they find this intimidating.

Let us say it's a hostile tribe of man-eating bipedal lizards? What good is impaling going to do?

Or for that matter, let's avoid anything unconventional. Let us just say they're a tribe of human cannibals? What good will leaving them dinner served do? Won't they simply consider us weak because we did not eat our prey? Or maybe, won't they simply want to slaughter us cause we speak a different language, no question asked?

There are merits and demerits to every choice, but, when confronted with an unknown enemy I don't know I prefer to take the option that I know will give me something good. I cannot even begin to speculate how this mysterious, hostile tribe may think. So I cannot know what will make them happy or unhappy.

So, my only choice is to try and confront it by being as strong as I can. Numerical advantage IS a good advantage in my book.

End of the line, you could tell me that in your opinion some combat experience is better than 50 new people of dubious military value. Well, that's one reasoning I can accept, though I prefer option A. But if you tell me, let's do this to scare those other possible enemies, I disagree because we do not know who they are, nor what we can do to actually scare them.

EDIT By the way this is NOT metagaming. It's not even a pacifist choice. I'm being extremely pragmatic here. Our neighbours were mauled by some unknown threat. Hence, I want to know more. I think the: "help these people so that they tell us what they know, and maybe fight it with us," is a perfectly valid point of view even for one of our tribesmen
 

Internet

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I feel like I've missed the update where our stone-age/neanderthal tribe built the United Nations Council wonder.

Anyway, there are pretty good points for both A and B. Since the tribe now has decent weapons, fire and is located near a defensible position, I stick with the aggressive choice.
 

oscar

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Your jumping to the conclusion that they will join our tribe. They vary well may just take our food, nod in appreciation and then go on their merry way, forgetting our kindness and how easily we could have crushed them a few generations later.

If there is some man-eating lizard horde (something I highly doubt), direct fighting experience is worth far more than the possible aid of a bunch of dispirited cripples who will likely simply be more mouths to feed. Remember we have never killed anything more than a zebra and even the idea of killing other humans is likely alien to us. In any case, I imagine we're well-ahead of the curve in anything military due to our use of our free-choice to get stone weaponry. Now we could have learnt how to fish or somesuch, but we didn't so let's put finally put these new weapons to the test as the hunters demand.

Once again I insist that A surrenders the definite and certain advantages (tech, real combat experience in a relatively safe environment and slaves who allow us to dedicate more of our people to warfare and crafting) of B in exchange for a chance to get similar advantages, but at very real risk of allowing a neighbour to develop (please read A again, befriend does not mean assimilate). And this friendship would be a very short-term thing, that will inevitably turn sour as we grow and begin to chafe at each other's borders.
 

Vernydar

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I have already admitted that B does have its uses as well. And of course, with A, there's no guarantees. We COULD end up with semi-empty hands.... I think though that you're being overly optimistic with the advantages of B.

How many of these people can our hunters actually capture? Won't they fight to the last man? Especially if they are used to facing another hostile tribe. Why would they believe we will accept a surrender, especially if we do not speak the same tongue? And, our hunters are undisciplined, will they truly risk their lives to capture them? Or will they just strike them down if faced with a last stand?

It's not easy to capture people who fight to the death.

They may very well decide to fight to the last man, and/or try to flee abandoning all the injured. Say we lose 5 hunters, and we capture 10 injured and cripples and 15 between children and elders. A realistic scenario if they flee and/or resist.

We have no useful slaves, and most likely we lost most of their "tech" knowledge. True we did get some combat experience....

It's not such a clear-cut choice my friend :)
 

Curufinwe

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Ok. So the council decided to help the poor bastards. Thought it would go to B for a while, but cooler heads prevailed. Onwards!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The debate ran fierce through the night, positions in the council switching between the more belligerant hunter approach and the pacific yet pragmatic position of the keepers of fire. What was clear though was that this new, weakened tribe could not, would not be ignored.
With the rising sun, the greatest fire, the position of the keepers finally prevailed. Hurriedly an aid expedition was formed, comprised of hunters with their meat, tamers with their sheep and zebras, scavengers with their roots, keepers with their warm fires.
The column left the camp by mid day, preceded by a scouting party who had the orders to amicably approach the escaping tribe and make them understand help would be on the way.

The column came back fifteen days later, marching slowly, accompanied by a small fleet of rafts and canoes (those were the names of the floating logs, we learned later) on the river.

The elder council convened again to meet the strangers. It was quickly established that the new tribe worked much like our own, a council of the elders taking all decisions of import.
Then the tale of their eldest began...

'We thank you for the help you provided, free of obligations, to the remnants of our tribe. We don't know the ways of the open plains and would have faced terrible hardships in the next years, but when we spotted your tribe we were scared. We are weak, we are few, we are on the run. We could not risk making contact with someone who might have attacked us for our few goods or just for sport.'
'Our tribe, in past years, lived past the hills downriver. There is a great body of water there. For generations, we lived on its shores, in peace, harvesting the bounty of the water and exploring along its shores. We found several tribes much like us, establishing peaceful relationships and trading fish for fish.'
'We had just one great problem. A great flying beast, monstrous, raided us every few years, taking its tolls in lives to sate its hunger – he produces a small figurine of the beast. It resembles one of the lizards that we sometimes saw scurrying underfoot, but winged, and horned – but the losses were always bearable, we could afford to live there even with those raids.'

images


'Behind our backs, where the sun rises, a great, dark forest lay. For many years we thought nothing of it, but then ominous things started happening. First, we lost contact with the tribes further along the shores than us. First the farthest, then nearer and nearer, until we were the last.'
He sighs: 'We should have been wiser. We should have been frightened. We should have moved. But then they came, and it was too late. A great tribe, more numerous than the pebbles on the shore, attacked us. They were men like us and you, yet they weren't like us and you. They were beasts, roaring their hunger and hatred. They had warriors, moving as fast as the gazelle, as strong as lions. They fought dressed in animal pelts, bare-handed, fearless, impervious to all but the most grievous wounds. Our spears could not save us, the valor of our best fishers and hunters as nothing in front of the bestial rage they had to face. In a day, we were vanquished. We took to the waters and fled far, far away, for many moons, until we crossed the hills and arrived here. We left our ancestral lands and our ancestral enemy behind, the rest of the tale, you know'.

A deep, worried silence accompanied the end of the tale.

A. The hunters spoke first: 'Although this great enemy waits far beyond our lands, beyond the hills, we can't afford to ignore them. Until now, all we had to fight were beasts. Cunning, strong, yes, but always unorganized. We must prepare for this new menace and train our strongest, healtiest men in the art of killing. We have no other choice.'
B. A keeper of fire shook his head: 'This man's tale is indeed distressing and should not be ignored. But our priority right now is to make our tribe stronger and more numerous. We should focus on welcoming these refugees into our tribe, learn their customs and their water-wisdom. Only then can we move our gaze to the hills and beyond.'
C. Some of the elders, frightened, said: 'This enemy is far away, yes. But not far enough. It is enough for them to follow the river to find us. This place is not safe. We should start sending exploration parties in all other directions, to find an hidden stronghold, and start anew.'
 

Vernydar

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Ok, we're in deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep trouble now :(

A wyvern! (I hope a wyvern, please let it be a wyvern and not a dragon...). And.... a barbarian horde! By the way, since I have not seen wyverns here, I think we can safely say we're NOT on earth :p

I'm quite happy we took the peaceful approach, I doubt we would have known all of this if we had gone with conquest. But now we're faced with a very hard decision... All of the solutions are attractive, and this is not a good sign.

Training the soldiers is certainly a good solution. It shall give us an army of sort, it shall make us more ready. The problem is... will it be enough? Are we numerous enough to face the horde of the savages? (well, savages compared to us at least...). I really fear it's an enemy too numerous for us right now! I mean these people saw us, and we are not more numerous than the pebbles on the shore. And also, they were attacked by surprise and still 50 of them survived. Means they were at least as numerous as us. I think the hostile savages are at least 3-4 times our number, and ALL warriors... We do have spears and fire over them most likely but, the number difference is too high for now I think.

On the other hand, increasing the number of people in our tribe, integrating the newcomers and learning their custom and water wisdom is also good and will make us stronger in the long run. But, only if we have enough time to train for war afterwards! We could get caught with our pants down.

As for c... well.. fortified stronghold anyone? But... uhm, escaping might make us survive but will not make us stronger. Then again, better to survive than to die... If we do find a strong position, and prepare, we could likely fight these savages to a standstill.


Soooo undecided here, every choice is very risky
 
Self-Ejected

Jack

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I've had enough of this bullshit, when we had an weak opponent you guys didn't want to fight so now don't tell me anyone is planning on staying here to meet the horde. Let's get the hell out of here as quick as possible and leave these mongoloids to their own devices. They will come to this mountain sooner or later and I don't plan to be around when that happens.

C
 

Esquilax

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I've had enough of this bullshit, when we had an weak opponent you guys didn't want to fight so now don't tell me anyone is planning on staying here to meet the horde. Let's get the hell out of here as quick as possible and leave these mongoloids to their own devices. They will come to this mountain sooner or later and I don't plan to be around when that happens.

I chose not to fight these people out of pragmatism, not pacifism. The problem with running is that (a) we lose knowledge, and (b) there's hardly any guarantee that the place we run to is any safer than the one we're at now. If anything, I feel that any place we go to after this will probably be less safe than this one - remember, if we are overwhelmed, we can always fall back to the mountain, where we have a terrain advantage and the attackers have less knowledge of the area than we do. We'll have the advantage there. I doubt we'll fare better elsewhere. This aggressive forest tribe has managed to destroy several other tribes - where would we run to?

Second, a big reason why these guys were overwhelmed was that they were caught by surprise - we won't be. We also have advantages in fire, stone and obsidian that they didn't - perhaps after training our people, we can start building some walls in preparation for an assault. Good defenses will allow us to repel a much larger force than our own.

A (for now)

EDIT: Curufinwe how many people do we have in our tribe at the moment? How many fighting men/able-bodied young men?
 
Self-Ejected

Jack

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I chose not to fight these people out of pragmatism, not pacifism. The problem with running is that (a) we lose knowledge, and (b) there's hardly any guarantee that the place we run to is any safer than the one we're at now. If anything, I feel that any place we go to after this will probably be less safe than this one - remember, if we are overwhelmed, we can always fall back to the mountain, where we have a terrain advantage and the attackers have less knowledge of the area than we do. We'll have the advantage there. I doubt we'll fare better elsewhere. This aggressive forest tribe has managed to destroy several other tribes - where would we run to?
That's why we will be sending out scouts, to find a place both safe and easily defendable and resume our expansion from there. We don't have any war experience at all and it would be foolish to assume that we would survive an encounter with the barbarians, mountain or no mountain. Besides, this mountain of yours is crawling with predators that would eat any survivors seeking refuge there. This place is a deathtrap, sure the water tech would be neat, but it simply isn't worth dying for.

Second, a big reason why these guys were overwhelmed was that they were caught by surprise - we won't be. We also have advantages in fire, stone and obsidian that they didn't - perhaps after training our people, we can start building some walls in preparation for an assault. Good defenses will allow us to repel a much larger force than our own.
I think you seriously overestimate our defensive capabilities and the skill of our hunters. No matter how long time we took to prepare for fending off an attack and trained our hunters it could never compare to the real deal. And these men we would be facing have the experience and numbers to make up for any technical disadvantages they might have. Who knows how many tribes they have conquered already?
 

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