On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

[Tigranes]

We don't seem to be particularly unhappy, and quite content with our rather austere and hardworking lives; no need to introduce a distraction into that if it's not there yet.

B just really seems heads and shoulders above the other options, as I say we really need construction potential, and we already have a fairly sustainable command over fire. Charcoal could lead to metallurgy in the long run, but I just feel like the first step is some kind of architecture, not cave-dwelling fur-clothed men equipped with iron swords and plate mail. On caves v. huts I can actually see us living spread out across various caves, but if we can construct wooden structures, we can not have houses on the foot of the mountains, we can build bridges over the rivers (though I assume for such a wide river it would need to be stone + wood at least), overhanging structures in the mountains to aid navigation, transport, mining, etc - we're then actually building into the mountain instead of walking around with pickaxes where we can. I think B will actually help us in our conquest of the mountains.

I'm interested in how curufinwe will show the social dynamics of our decisions play out - whether we become cave-dwelling or wooden house-dwelling has a huge impact not just on technology and economics, but what kinds of interpersonal bonds, class structures, social group sizes, communication mediums, etc., that we will develop over time. We appear to be a quite harmonious and diligent group of barbarians thus far, but I'm sure that will change.

 

[Kipeci]

its just he said to use it as a siege shelter which really wouldn't work because they could seal it in a way we couldn't get out without explosives theres a reason cave ins are dangerous and its not just because of falling rocks

I did not say that they're good siege shelters, what I was saying was that if we have caves we have the option to turn an assault into a siege. Would a siege be bad? Almost certainly, if the other guy didn't say 'screw it' and go home. But having even that small chance of survival (though we may be overestimating our theoretical opponent's ability to build blockades) is still better than the alternative of being immediately killed in our huts with no choices about it. I don't know why you have such a hard-on for building huts right away, but its pretty clear that the caves are better shelters than anything we can build as of yet, as well as any structures that we're likely to build in the near future.

In these times, if you want it you take it (but take someone else's and you get a club to the head). Not to mention the fact that having to give gifts in the hopes of getting laid sounds tragically beta.

Fair point. I'll switch to B, maybe we can get some good spears or something.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

Don't even need to vote here, no good reason not to go with B.
Not sure why and how we didn't see trees from right beside the mountain, before, though. We need to invent optic lenses for our tribe of blind moles ASAP!

 

[Curufinwe]

I did speak of thickets and woods in at least two updates previously. But you always decided to stay the fuck away from the slopes.

 

[m4davis]

I did not say that they're good siege shelters, what I was saying was that if we have caves we have the option to turn an assault into a siege. Would a siege be bad? Almost certainly, if the other guy didn't say 'screw it' and go home. But having even that small chance of survival

I realize you already switched but If it gets to that situation anytime soon its probably just a better idea to run off to better pastures.

 

[Stygian Lurker]

I vote B.

 

[Kipeci]

I realize you already switched but If it gets to that situation anytime soon its probably just a better idea to run off to better pastures.

This being my already stated preferred response to a threat (did you notice the part where I was saying it shouldn't get to that point because we have a nice mountain viewpoint and can go fleeing in the opposite direction of a threat on our speedy zebra mounts?), I obviously agree with this statement already. You can ditch where you are regardless of whether you're in a hut or a cave, so I don't see your point.

 

[Curufinwe]

Time for another interlude, now we're approaching update XX.

Interlude 2: Pre-Update XX

Our tribe, still nameless, in the last ten updates made a home for itself at the bend of the river running from the mountain towards the northern hill (you didn't invent directions yet, but it runs north). Our numbers grew to about four hundreds thanks mainly to the decision to help and integrate the refugees from the northern tribe. Obsidian was found and used for tools and weapons, sheep were domesticated, a basic military system, based on militia, was implemented. Oh, and bears were tamed. A few of them at least. Finally you decided to explore the lower slopes of the mountain, finding a whole lot of resources.

Government

The elder council is still running strong. Castes are still rising their voices, with the tamers losing some influence and the hunters gaining it, especially since you started turning a few of them into warriors. Keepers of fire are always a group by themselves, strong in their religious fervor. Scavengers are still the lowest rung of society.

Culture

A small step forward was made with the first artistic pieces, mainly wooden figurines, carved in the last generations. You're still pretty much barbarians though.

Economics

Collectivism is still going strong, no great changes on this front.

Military

This is probably the field that has changed the most. On the organizational side you decided to train every able man in the use of weapons. They're not professionals, but you should be able to field a decent number of militiamen in a pinch. Perhaps more importantly, with obsidian tipping your spears and axes you have the (possibly) cutting edge in weapon technology.

Science

You managed to tame sheep, you gained basic fishing and boating, you did pretty good on this front too. Now the river is not an obstacle for your movement.

Religion

On the religion front, animal worship has all but disappeared. Almost everyone, more or less devotedly, is a fire worshiper. A few nutjobs apparently were very impressed by the flying lizard figurine and speak of the beast with awe, having never seen it. The refugees are not amused, but it's nowhere close to a 'religion' so far.

 

[Curufinwe]

This being my already stated preferred response to a threat (did you notice the part where I was saying it shouldn't get to that point because we have a nice mountain viewpoint and can go fleeing in the opposite direction of a threat on our speedy zebra mounts?), I obviously agree with this statement already. You can ditch where you are regardless of whether you're in a hut or a cave, so I don't see your point.

Your speedy what? Did someone figure out riding while I wasn't looking? :D

 

[Kipeci]

What, you mean we've just been chasing them on foot for all this time?

 

[m4davis]

What, you mean we've just been chasing them on foot for all this time?

Why do you think it took so long to catch them.

 

[Curufinwe]

Why do you think it took so long to catch them.

Amen to that.

 

[Kipeci]

I assumed we were just incompetent throwbacks.

 

[Vernydar]

Commentary to the commentary again

General:
Well, 400 people. Not bad. I think absorbing the small tribe instead of conquering them has been beneficial. Not doing bad on the tech side, and a good location. Nice.

Government
Same structure as before, for now it's working well. The "caste" system is so far ok. I expect the scavengers to become more important once we get some agriculture.

Culture
Still semi-barbarians. Eventually we want to increase this a lot. I think for now music and maybe painting would be good things if we manage to do it. Jewelry MIGHT be a move in this direction too.

Economics
Still collectivism, still the best way to go for now. We will eventually move to barter once we find other tribes who WANT to barter. But for now, it's ok like this I think

Military
We are no longer undefended barbarians, we can now sort of fight if the need arise. We also have decent war tech. We also have thrown spears, let's not forget this.

Science
We learned fishing, tamed sheep. This is good. We can now feed ourselves much better than before. Agriculture should be next if we can manage it. It would be nice. But first we need shelter, some place where we can store the excess food from harvest.

Religion
Still fire worshippers. That's ok, we're few and uncultured, can't really expect something more at the moment. Eventually we will want to make a push in this directions as a source of inspiration to our people. I say this again, most religion had beneficial effects on the population historically.

Conclusions:
I think we're going in the right direction. I think the next steps we should take are:
- Shelter, though it may come with this update. it's essential for increasing living standars, and life expectancy. We can build a small village if needed.
- Keep working on the military aspect, we do not want to be taken with our pants down
- Agriculture and other techs for food. Mostly, for example, preserving food. I do not think we can preserve food very well.This coupled with shelter above will make our numbers grow. And numbers DO matter.
- Fortifications. Why not? No, seriously, if we learn shelter, and build a small village, even crude fortification like a palisade are precious. At the least, we can use it to keep animals out. And if attacked, they can still be useful to us.
And if by chance we make a fortified village on the river, we cannot even be bottled up inside. We still have canoe and can fish out there if needs be even under siege, supposing of course the attackers do NOT have canoe. But it's unlikely they would.
EDIT: right, as kipeci said, even learning to ride the zebra could be good, if it works.
- And of course, anything else. The moment we stop improving is the moment we die.

 

[Kipeci]

Maybe learning how to ride all the zebras we conveniently have grazing around would be a good idea?

 

[Monty]

Cue the next debate about whether we should ride the zebras, sheep or bears!

 

[Curufinwe]

13 votes for B, only 1 each for A and C. You really are tree-huggers, you know that?


In the following months, great energy was expended into bringing fallen trunks and branches of various types of wood back home. The strength of the zebra and good, old fashioned sweat made the task possible.
When back at the camp, the refugees, who had used wood back home for raft and canoe building proved to be great help.
We managed to use the new resource for two tasks mainly: shelter-building and fence-crafting.

At first we built very rudimentary shelters, made of long branches holding up animal skins and keeping out some of the rain and wind from cold nights. With the increase in available wood though we started piling some logs and binding them together with animal sinew, making walls. On top of the walls, more animal skins were used to make a sort of roof.
We could build just a pair of those huts, to be used by the sick and elderly of the tribe to keep warm, but it was a start. More would come in the following years.

Smaller, lighter logs were used to make fences to keep our zebras and sheep in place without the need of watching them constantly. It lightened the workload of our tamers, although the animals seemed to be nonplussed by the new arrangement at first, trying to jump the logs (and managing it at first, until we build them higher) to gain their freedom of movement back. They would get used to it.
The few bear companions instead ignored the attempt, simply charging through the weak obstacle when they felt like moving away. We would need stronger enclosures for them.

Ideas were tossed back and forth about using the bigger, still standing trees to build bigger structures, but we would need to figure out a way to cut them down and move them first. Obsidian axes dulled and shattered when we tried to use them like that.

Map of what your scouts and hunters saw from the eastern slopes of the mountain. Dull brown-yellow is still the dry plains, grey are the rock flatlands to the east and yes, in that corner it's a mountain chain the eagle-eyed scouts spotted from the highest spots they reached.

Life was going pretty well. We had food, we had shelter, we had fire to warm us and protect us. But we knew there would still be ways to improve our lot in life, and did not forget about the dangers lurking nearby and afar, both known and unknown. We could never stop developing, we would never stop seeking to better ourselves!

So, it's that time again. Free update! You have your mountain next to you, the river heads north with the fabled hostile tribes and lizard-beast, the dry plains to your south and a rocky flatland with glimpses of a mountain chain to the east.

Do whatever you like! Rules are the same from update X, go check that one out if you don't recall, can't be arsed to rewrite it all. Have fun and let me see what your priority is right now! Could be exploring, could be religion, could be culture or art, could be warfare. Evolution at its best!

Edit: Just one little amendment. Feel free to make as many proposals as you want, just the one person-one vote rule still stands. As last time, this could mean the debate will still be too open by tomorrow evening so I'll wait another day before update XXI.

Edit 2: Thanks for the great participation in these first twenty days of this nutjob project of mine by the way! It's going strong thanks to you guys, even (or maybe especially) when you make plain silly decisions like the bear one! :D

 

[Esquilax]

Great observations, Vernydar. Despite the fierce debate initially, I also feel that the peaceful approach was the right call with the refugees. If we had decided to attack them, they would have grown resentful - they had already been defeated, their only real choices were to either join up with us as equals or die out in the plains. Mercy was the pragmatic decision here.

At the moment I really think we should start building some boats and sending them downriver to see the world. We are isolated and blind at this point and I want some eyes and ears out there in case it turns out that the aggressive tribe that slaughtered the refugees has amassed nearby. If it's a serious threat, then we can anticipate it and develop countermeasures - palisades, men with throwing spears, etc. Best case scenario, we find a friendly nearby tribe that wishes to trade.

I'm open to a lot of suggestions, however.

 

[Vernydar]

Ok, now, since curufinwe said we can discuss it a bit more, I think I'm going to make two proposals. I think the most urgent things we need to do are:

- Even better tools. We have obsidian axes, they are nice for war, but, as just said, brittle. We could get some better tools now, made of harder rock, and that way we could enter officially the "we can make buildings now" phase. With better tools to cut and smooth wood we could make buildings, and maybe build some palisade which would be invaluable if attacked. Plus, potentially, granaries, watchtowers, anything. Better tools would be vitals when we eventually decide to move to metallurgy too. You can't work metals with your hands.

- or we can do some serious scouting. Both from above the mountain, and on foot/boat. Finally look in detail what is there around us. If there are other tribes, if there are other enemies. It could be vital to know. Maybe since we have 400 people now, start some semi-permanent patrols too

Everything else is not as urgent. We could get agriculture, but we have enough food for now and we can't preserve the harvest. We could try to ride zebras... but face it, we just tried to tame yet another animal. It would be good, but risky. Not sure it would work, and without stirrup and saddle (for a LONG time) it would only be for scouting, NOT for war. So, no. Or we could go for more culture, but using an open update for culture is kinda meh. Religion is better to be left based on how the story unravels frankly.

For metallurgy it's too soon, we could study coal, but even then, we need sturdy tools to start working metals, hence what I said above

Right now I'm leaning towards even better tools.

And let us not forget. WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE EXPEDITION THAT WENT INTO THE CAVERNS

 

[Kipeci]

If we start figuring out how to ride out animals, that gives us a huge advantage in mobility. We could be unmatched in our pace on the plains with zebras to ride, which helps us in scouting out the area, communicating with distant peoples, and even running away faster than we could be pursued if it turned out that we were hopelessly outmatched by the aggressive tribe. It's an extremely useful tool for all of that, and the military applications further down the line are pretty decent, too. Zebra riding should be a thing to pursue.

 

[Vernydar]

Kipeci, with all due respect, for an open post we should aim for something we KNOW it's going to work. It's our choice once in a while to go towards something specific. Look at the fucking bears. We cannot be sure that we will be able to ride zebra, we do not know if curufinwe made them rideable

As such, as far as I am concerned, trying to see if we can ride zebras is out. Let us stick to something we know works, ok?

 

[m4davis]

- Even better tools. We have obsidian axes, they are nice for war, but, as just said, brittle. We could get some better tools now, made of harder rock, and that way we could enter officially the "we can make buildings now" phase. With better tools to cut and smooth wood we could make buildings, and maybe build some palisade which would be invaluable if attacked. Plus, potentially, granaries, watchtowers, anything. Better tools would be vitals when we eventually decide to move to metallurgy too. You can't work metals with your hands.

This that is all.

 

[Kipeci]

How is going for 'better tools' something we KNOW is going to work? I could still see us managing to somehow botch the job and just amputate our arms and the stone tools, though I'm not seriously suggesting that's what would happen. I just can't see how riding zebras is a dicy thing when taming animals and zebras in particular has been our specialty for all this time. We may as well stick to that strength for a little edge and then concentrate on everything else. It seems better to me for us to develop a good escape plan first and then come up with something that maybe leads to more solid defenses than just banking on maybe learning some decent fortifications in time.

We certainly have more experience with animals than tools, if we get the big payoff from the animals now then we have plenty of future opportunities to go for the tools.

 

[Vernydar]

I think you missed my point.

We KNOW it it possible to make better tools. It's just a matter of work and time.

But nobody historically used zebra as mounts on a large scale on our planet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra#Domestication
We do not know if it is possible to do that in this world! Whether or not we are capable tamers matters not. Look at the bears. It could not be done, and it did not work

I do not want to use an open update over something which might not work no matter how good we are. Simple as that.

 

[Esquilax]

Even better tools. We have obsidian axes, they are nice for war, but, as just said, brittle. We could get some better tools now, made of harder rock, and that way we could enter officially the "we can make buildings now" phase. With better tools to cut and smooth wood we could make buildings, and maybe build some palisade which would be invaluable if attacked. Plus, potentially, granaries, watchtowers, anything. Better tools would be vitals when we eventually decide to move to metallurgy too. You can't work metals with your hands.

Sounds a little metagamey, vague and a retread of the last "free" choice we had. Look at it from our tribesman's POV: he doesn't know what "better weapons" entails or how to go about obtaining them, but you do. But he does know that the black stone is a great kindred to the fire spirit. Personally, I would suggest going with A from the last choice if you're going this route - return to the caves and get the black stones so that we can honor the fire god. It will be a boon to religion, culture, and even warfare.

With our rudimentary woodworking, we could set up a palisade with the black stones around it. When any barbarians attempt to charge through the barricades, our men can call upon the fire spirits to bring death to their enemies by throwing a torch on the trap. The psychological effects of such a weapon would be terrifying.

- or we can do some serious scouting. Both from above the mountain, and on foot/boat. Finally look in detail what is there around us. If there are other tribes, if there are other enemies. It could be vital to know. Maybe since we have 400 people now, start some semi-permanent patrols too

Everything else is not as urgent. We could get agriculture, but we have enough food for now and we can't preserve the harvest. We could try to ride zebras... but face it, we just tried to tame yet another animal. It would be good, but risky. Not sure it would work, and without stirrup and saddle (for a LONG time) it would only be for scouting, NOT for war. So, no. Or we could go for more culture, but using an open update for culture is kinda meh. Religion is better to be left based on how the story unravels frankly.

Religion can bring unity and purpose to our people. It can also cause dogmatism, cruelty and stupidity, but that's another matter. We are still understandably a superstitious lot and we should try to make reasonable decisions based on the POV of our people, and try to avoid looking at things with the benefit of 10,000 years of hindsight.*

I want scouting because we're blind out there. For all we know, those aggressive barbarians that attacked the refugees we absorbed are stronger and more unified now. If we find that they're strong, we can build defenses to anticipate them. If we find that they're weak, we can head down the river and strike while we've still got the element of surprise and superior weaponry. If we find other tribes that are peaceful, we can trade knowledge and increase our understanding of the world. Hard to go wrong with this one, IMO.

* That being said, you didn't exactly need a crystal ball to figure that bear domestication was a bad idea.

And let us not forget. WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE EXPEDITION THAT WENT INTO THE CAVERNS

Where did it say that? I read the update again and I didn't see anything that indicated that this was the case.