On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

[Vernydar]

And let us not forget. WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THE EXPEDITION THAT WENT INTO THE CAVERNS

Where did it say that? I read the update again and I didn't see anything that indicated that this was the case.

Quoting from the post before.

"Several expeditions, comprised mainly of hunters and militiamen were formed and scattered on the lower slopes. One headed for the caves that were spotted years ago, armed with fire."

Note that curufinwe did not say ANYTHING about the caverns. I bet you anything you want that he did not simply forget about them.

Something must have happened to that patrol. As I wrote before, either they found something, or something found them. And curufinwe is trying to throw us off by not saying anything on purpose to see if we notice.


Also I do not see the better tools as metagaming. We know the ones we have now are not capable of cutting tree. It even said so in the update, "Ideas were tossed back and forth about using the bigger, still standing trees to build bigger structures, but we would need to figure out a way to cut them down and move them first. Obsidian axes dulled and shattered when we tried to use them like that."

the tribesmen can surely think they need better tools to cut down the trees

 

[Stygian Lurker]

I think you missed my point.

We KNOW it it possible to make better tools. It's just a matter of work and time.

But nobody historically used zebra as mounts on a large scale on our planet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra#Domestication
We do not know if it is possible to do that in this world! Whether or not we are capable tamers matters not. Look at the bears. It could not be done, and it did not work

I do not want to use an open update over something which might not work no matter how good we are. Simple as that.

I don't agree that taming bears failed. It takes many generations to fully domesticate dangerous animal like bear. I believe that they will be fully domesticated at some distant point in the future.

I'm with Kipeci on this one. Let's learn to ride zebras.

 

[Kipeci]

We KNOW it it possible to make better tools. It's just a matter of work and time.

And these better tools would theoretically lead to us building nicer things, I know you've said that, but where's our current motivation for that? What's the point of granaries when we don't have grain, watchtowers when we're already living near enough to the slopes of a mountain? There's no guarantee that wooden buildings would be that incredibly safe due to our religious obsession with flames, anyway. I don't deny that decent tools and the like have their place, and we should get to them, but let's focus on an escape plan first. Anyway, if you want to start building better buildings, why don't you focus your attentions on that instead of 'better tools'? Giving a person a chainsaw instead of an handaxe doesn't make them an architectural genius, but practice in building things might go a lot farther.

But nobody historically used zebra as mounts on a large scale on our planet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra#Domestication

No one on our planet has domesticated zebras on a large scale, but we have in this one. There have been a number of instances of people breaking zebras to ride them in our world, so it seems reasonable that it could easily happen in a world where zebras were easily domesticable by a bunch of people apparently too stupid to realize that branches grow off of trees.

 

[Esquilax]

I don't agree that taming bears failed. It takes many generations to fully domesticate dangerous animal like bear. I believe that they will be fully domesticated at some distant point in the future.

I'm with Kipeci on this one. Let's learn to ride zebras.

But will it be worth all the aggravation by then? This bear-taming nonsense is a sunk cost: let's just learn our lesson from it and move on to something else. You're saying that if we give it more time it will begin to pay off, but fuck that - by then, we could develop art or music, agriculture, a cohesive religious/cultural identity, better tools, take some steps towards metallurgy, or a million other things that are a better use of time.

Zebra riding isn't really a great use of our time either. We can already use our boats to scout along the river, and we live near a mountain. What good will zebra-riding do for a mountain people anyways? If we were remaining on the plains, zebra-riding would be crucial, but I'm not convinced that it's a good investment. They are already useful as a food source and a draft animal, using our shot at a free update on zebra mounts when we're not in a position where they'd be useful seems like such a waste. Besides, I am sick of yet another update full of animal domestication bullshit - seems incredibly boring.

I want to either start making better tools or start seeing what's out there in the world.

 

[Kipeci]

But will it be worth all the aggravation by then? This bear-taming nonsense is a sunk cost: let's just learn our lesson from it and move on to something else. You're saying that if we give it more time it will begin to pay off, but fuck that - by then, we could develop art or music, agriculture, a cohesive religious/cultural identity, better tools, take some steps towards metallurgy, or a million other things that are a better use of time.

He's not suggesting we specifically devote an update to it, he's pointing out that it's still developing all the same no matter what we're doing... unless we decide to just drive off all our bears, anyway.

Zebra riding isn't really a great use of our time either. We can already use our boats to scout along the river, and we live near a mountain.

The river scouting obviously only provides benefits along that river itself, and while our mountaintop view is great, it's not the same as being able to make quick rides around the large sort of plains area surrounding the mountain to take closer looks at more specific spots. Surely there's something important in that huge area? Even if it's not, being able to move around it at zebra-speed instead of a foot pace certainly couldn't hurt us if we ever had reason to go outside of our little area... like, say, if we were to make those trading expeditions that everyone wants to make. It'd even probably be useful for shortening the trip down the path of the river.

What good will zebra-riding do for a mountain people anyways?

We aren't technically a mountain people, we just live near one... and keep in mind, that's one mountain. What happens when we start needing to expand? There, zebra mounts are going to be useful for travel and communication between our groups, even if we were only seeking out other mountains as our homes. And if we ever have any gigantic threat creeping up on us too quickly for our liking that we notice from our mountain slopes, zebras would likely provide a quicker pace to retreat than the opponent could match. Warriors mounted on zebras could travel great distances very quickly without really being tired, which is obviously useful.

 

[oscar]

Simple, let's go back to those scavengers and ask them for their vegetation observations.

 

[Urist McLurker]

Vegetation observations gets my vote; I think we ought to learn more about the land around us, we have good knowledge of the river, more than a basic grasp of the mountain, and our animal domestication is at a good level, honestly, it's at a point where I'm worried if we don't have a way to keep feeding the herds we'll have to move like nomads for them to keep grazing, splitting up our tribe over the plains if we wanna keep our home here, and if not we'll have wasted our time coming to this mountain, both ways lose any real advantages the mountain and river give us from danger, and for our survival.

Learning more about the general vegetation of the land seems like a good idea, if only to explore more food sources for the animals. It seems like we're trying to settle down here, and we need to make sure we have a permanent way of feeding the herds at least, moreso if we're building stockades and stuff to keep them from roaming, thereby limiting their grazing range.

I 'unno though, I'm no expert of husbandry, let alone husbandry of zebras.

 

[m4davis]

ok flip floping to vegetation observations

 

[Jick Magger]

In all honesty, we should just fucking forget about trying to domesticate more animals already. I doubt that the grand total of three bears we've managed to domesticate (and by 'domesticate', I really mean 'barely convinced not to attack a very specific group of people within the tribe') will be able to grow into full-blown cavalry units, and by the time it could shit like slings would make them next-to-useless. Taming zebras is just as silly a notion, not to mention pointless at the moment. If we wanted to be horse-riding nomads, you guys should've taken the option at the beginning. That avenue has come and gone.

I also vote for vegetation observation, developing an agriculture, getting to know more about the area around us, and finding a food source for our herd would be a good step towards becoming civilised.

Also, Curufinwe, for the sake of curiosity how many years have passed since the first update?

 

[Hirato]

I was going to suggest learning more about the local herbs and plants as the scavengers suggested a while back.
It definitely has my vote

 

[Kipeci]

Having zebras to ride is not a useless skill for a non-nomadic people, but it just gives us an edge against everyone who doesn't have them. I'd speak more on the subject, but I'd forgotten again about our lack of agriculture... we definitely need to invest in a more stable food supply, which should also kick off population growth. I'm definitely behind the vegetation observation.

 

[Curufinwe]

Also, Curufinwe, for the sake of curiosity how many years have passed since the first update?

Hell if I know :D. Jokes apart, I'd say about one hundred and some years. Since you haven't invented a calendar yet I'm being a bit free myself with time calculations. Before you came to the mountains updates were a bit longer, now the updates that advance time are usually in chunks of five or so years.

On this update, four main proposals have emerged: riding zebras, plant study, tool making, exploration. No consensus has been reached yet.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Yeah, I'm voting for plants. More diverse food sources are good, and agriculture is the way to permanent settlements.

 

[kazgar]

Yeah, I'm voting for plants. More diverse food sources are good, and agriculture is the way to permanent settlements.

plants can also lead to things like hemp and papyrus for paper/writing. so yeah, plants.

 

[Vernydar]

I am not convinced about plant study. Sure it's not a bad choice but...

- We have quite a lot of food now. Zebras, sheep, fish, what the scavengers already get. I do not think our growth is limited by food right now.
- We do not have many tools right now, I doubt we could prove very effective. At most I think we might manage to find some seasonal plants to harvest or something like that
- We do not have ways to preserve such food. We have no pots, no granaries, nothing. Which is why we would be limited to harvesting seasonal plants. Not bad, but not very good either.
- Hemp and papyrus, same as before. We still lack everything, these things are still thousands of years away from now.

As I said, not a bad choice but I really think we can do better than this for an open update. Do something more immediately useful.

 

[Omicron]

I think going for scouting downriver would be a smart decision.

Or, if we want to be less culturally barren we could have the history of the tribe (or as far as our elders can remember it), engraved into wood.

Flipflopped to researching herbs

 

[Esquilax]

I agree with Vernydar. Plant cultivation doesn't make much sense given that we have such an abundant diet in our tribe - we're in absolutely no danger of starving and we have two different animals to serve as food sources. We are many generations away from any kind of breakthrough in terms of hemp ropes, paper*, so expecting any big results on that front is simply a pipe dream.

On the other hand, scouting downriver could determine the location of the barbarian tribe, any friendly tribes and let us know how we're doing in comparison with the others out there. Also, it'll finally let us uncover the mysteries out in the world that we only have second-hand knowledge of, such as the wyverns. If we find the barbarians at the gates, we can anticipate them, crush them and then absorb/enslave them. If they don't know of our presence, we can hit them with a surprise attack and eliminate them in short order. How's that for technological leapfrogging? I'm also eager to find out the strange, vast world that lies before us.

* Making paper seems extremely unlikely for at least the next few thousands of years. Besides, we don't even have a system of writing, what would we even use paper for? To wipe our asses perhaps, but we have leaves for that. Hell, not only do we not have writing, but because of our very simple economic system, we don't even have any impetus to discover writing to begin with - there is no need to write anything down or take note of any transactions.

If you want to develop writing, you first need to start with trade. But to even begin trading, we need to get out there and start meeting other people.

 

[Internet]

I'd lean towards plants, though the choice is as vague as it gets. I don't necessarily see it as plant cultivation, though. There is literally a bungazillion of things that could come from plants like: food gathering (nuts, roots, berries), tinctures, ropes, clothes, chemicals (even the most primitive tribes know the properties of some plants that grow in their surroundings).

Don't we live by a river? I figures in such an area plants like bamboos and osiers are abundant and they can easily be used to construct some buildings or make skeps baskets or other stuff (options that are more practical than carrying pine trees down a freaking mountain or trying to tech-rush pottery).

Maybe we could even start fabricating the first luxury items:

 

[Esquilax]

We have wood for those luxury items. And if you want to make better luxury items, why not direct your energy toward making better cutting tools so that we can carve wood more efficiently? Moreover, that option would give us better war weapons, as well as the ability to produce better defenses and boats, better shelter, and a sense of culture by encouraging the carving of crafts. It is pretty much better in every way.

I can't see how finding more plants is a better options than (a) increasing the efficacy of tools or (b) scouting the area. Yeah, it isn't a terrible idea, but there are far better uses of a free choice to be had.

 

[Hirato]

Not to mention, studying plants is also likely to give us access to tea and the first vestiges of medicine.
Of course that'll likely be herbal remedies and ointments, assuming we don't accidentally develop homeopathy.

 

[Urist McLurker]

Personally I don't think we ought to be scouting more quite yet, while it's clear it'll expand our knowledge of the world around us, I feel that it's better to expand our knowledge of the world directly around us, besides if the barbarian tribe doesn't know we're here, it seems foolish to seek them out until we're sure we can handle it, and while we won't find out whether or not that's the case unless we scout, I still don't think it's worth the risk yet. If they're much more capable than us, letting them know we're here will fuck us over, if they're not as capable as us, we were already safe. Unless we're suddenly going to try and get into war(which we've passed up basically every chance to be), it seems like a lose-lose option to me. We can already see anyone coming towards us from miles away so it's not like we'll be surprised if they try to attack us, we've got a great defensible position. Trying to go on the offensive against a tribe experienced in war seems like a bad idea. Scouting away from where the barbarian horde is would be a better choice for me, but even then, we might uncover a worse evil which we'll stand no chance against.

Attempting to get better tools is by far a better choice than scouting, but I still believe that if we're going to settle down in one area to call home, we need better food sources, we're not in danger of starving, or of failing to grow, but if something happens to the herds for whatever reason, we'll basically only have the river to feed at least 400 of us. Since we're near the river, it seems like the perfect place to experiment with the plantlife. If the stories of flying beasts are true(rather than the absorbed tribe talking out of their collective asses) then there could be more bizzaro-earth things closer to home.

Having even the first baby steps towards agriculture of some kind will start to make this place a permanent settlement, and once we have a permanent settlement, it'll give way to loads of other advancements, at least that's my view on it. Then there's also very basic medicine, poisons and like I mentioned, the possibility of bizzaro-earth herbs.

Failing that, exploring the mountain even more in-depth, attempting to expand our ability with tools somehow, or the quality of our tools, learning how to fully exploit the river, hell, even more animal taming seems like a better idea than scouting to me.

Whether or not studying plantlife is a better idea than getting better tools, I'm not sure one way or the other, but I'm fairly sure it'll be better for us than scouting more. Knowledge is power, sure, but that's a double-edge sword if we're discovered.

 

[Monty]

I vote for exploring downriver. It would be good to improve our tools and investigate agriculture, but neither of these are life and death situations. If the enemy horde suddenly surprises us that would be.

It's true that we will see them coming from the slopes of the mountain, but I think we need more warning than this. It's been years since they destroyed the other tribe and we could do with some updated intel. What if there's an army of thousands building up in the hills, or conversely if they've settled down or even dispersed and left. Knowing this would surely change our immediate plans, either getting on with improving our technology if they're no longer a threat or leaving or fortifying depending on the size of the threat. I don't think ignoring them and hoping they leave us alone is necessarily the best option, as they've already proved to be warlike.

 

[Lindblum]

Veggies. I'm not looking for more dietary supplements, but weaving ,farming and medicine technology.

Being able to not die from an open wound in the future would prove useful. Also weaving ropes can start us on the path to animal riding etc. eventually whips for Bear taming hehehe...
Also crazy shamans are nothing without 'magic' weeds.

 

[Kz3r0]

Zebra riding.

 

[Curufinwe]

Eating veggies is good for your health and seems to be the most popular choice for now. Will leave it open another day just to be utterly sure, then we're back on schedule.