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On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
OK, Vernydar, I get that long-term this guy is trouble. But at the same time, how do you intend to fight the barbarians? The Fire Priest could simply torch their entire forest and draw them out, we will have to fight them tooth-and-nail. Even with our numbers and our tech advantage, taking those guys on will be very difficult at best.

I do agree that we need a much more positive spiritual guide, however.
 

newcomer

Learned
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
919
CappenVarra has a good point there. Too bad I don't know how to brofist his post; anyone care teaching me how to do it?

If we decided to accept this person, placing him on council would be inevitable; after all, he can easily gain followers from the zealous fire believers & overthrow the council if his desire is not satisfied (such as given a "too low" social status), so I think giving him a council position would somewhat pacify him. The other council members can also voice against him, keeping his power in check while we wait for the wielder of water to join us.

Curufinwe , if he really becomes one of the council maybe you'll want to factor the amount of times his opinion is rejected with rebellion risk?
 

Vernydar

Learned
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
579
Location
Italy
I do agree that those barbarians are bad news. Which is the reason I wanted to settle in a more defensive place. Either on the hills, or if it came to that farther on the shore. But I think the solution is hardly to become as fanatic as they are. Seriously, we are at a risk of becoming just the way they are. That cannot be good, not to mention what I wrote before.

The mysterious figures we saw in the act I epilogue were talking about the northern flame ward being destroyed. One of them was really pissed about it, the other was instead still hesitating. WE are the ones that messed up that ward. If we take this guy in, we're most likely going to convince even the mysterious figure that did not want to interfere that we are really bad news. I think we have enough on our plate now and do not need to convince both those figures that we need to be eradicated. If we kill him or send him away, we can probably convince them that we as a tribe did not mean to do that.

To sum this up, taking this guy in risks on 1) making us into fanatics 2) making us lose control of our tribe and 3) convincing those mysterious figures we need to be killed. And that's not even counting the other tribes that could decide to kill us because we're dangerous, and the dragon that is going to come and ravage us from time to time.

Why being so masochistic? Surely we can do something ELSE, something better. For example, we could do these things:
- study ALL the spirits in a calm way. Make a pantheon and avoid fanaticism. if magic does exist or something like that anyway, we stand a much better chance to learn it in a balanced way like this.
- fortify our position. No seriously, I wrote it before. These barbarians are strong, but they fight bare handed. If we manage to build even a small wooden wall it would help immensely, especially because we have better weapons
- keep working on the weapons. If we can develop ranged weapons that's huge.

And, eliminate this guy, break/dump in the lake his stone, and forbid religious fanaticism. Let us aim for a profitable, moderate, inspiring religious instead.
 

Vernydar

Learned
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
579
Location
Italy
The other council members can also voice against him, keeping his power in check while we wait for the wielder of water to join us.

Councilmen, what other councilmen? The ones that vote against him are going to have "unfortunate accidents" and die in a few months. Mark my words, if we take this guy in it's going to be a huge problem.
 

Zwist

Learned
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
236
An old man steps into the light of the dying fire.
”Look at the embers”
”What you suggest is becoming the nourishment for a fire like this”
”Burning to fast, burning up”
”We have kept the fire for ages, kept it alive, and the first thing we learned was temperance”
”To let the fire run wild is to lose control, to endanger all of the tribe”
”And yet we are the Obsidian embers, we ARE fire”
”We ARE like fire in our aspect of strife; the hunter facing a wild bear, the tribesman preparing for a conflict with an unknown foe”
”The tribe we can not give you control over, lest we risk being consumed”
”The aspect of strife we CAN, let those who endanger the tribe serve as tinder”
“Let them burn.”
“No, let us BURN them. Consume THEM”
“But let os not burn those who can serve us, like the zebra did, let us burn those who are of danger, can not be controlled, like the bear”

“You are of the tribe, of the council, and such you shall be treated”
“But you are also of the flame, speak for it, and as a voice for it you shall be treated”
“You shall lead the tribe in the aspect of strife, and strife only”
“Prove the power of the flame to those who doubt it by destroying their enemy, let us prepare for a hunt, a hunt of those who attacked the refuges joining us years ago”
“Let their end be a testament of our connection to the flame and the dominance of it over all that is”

“Fire is strife, let those who fear strife avoid it, if they do not come to the flame of their own free will, they never deserved it, and their place shall be away from the glory of battle, serving the tribe in other ways”
“Warriors need food, clothing and people tending the wounds of battle, let those whose spirit does not burn tend those needs.”
“Let them be host to the flame, for without host the flame will die”

In short: I want a warrior caste hurling big balls of fire at our enemies.
 

Hirato

Purse-Owner
Patron
Joined
Oct 16, 2010
Messages
3,992
Location
Australia
Codex 2012 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
- study ALL the spirits in a calm way. Make a pantheon and avoid fanaticism. if magic does exist or something like that anyway, we stand a much better chance to learn it in a balanced way like this.
Agreed, and this is very much what I hoped we'd accomplish in the last update.

- keep working on the weapons. If we can develop ranged weapons that's huge.
We do have specialised throwing spears, though nothing along the lines of slings or bows.
But, if the barbarians are as vicious as told, these tools may not prove very effective.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
For people going on about putting him on the council, making him one of the leaders, etc: here is a dude who is essentially fire incarnate, and performs miracles out of his magic hat like none hath partayed before. How exactly do you think it would work? Are you going to have a normal water head priest who can't do shit, then this living wielder of fire popping in and out with magic tricks? Seriously? Halfarsed solutions like that will just result in disaster, we need to be decisive either way. Kill the wielder, or at least subjugate him like a wild animal; otherwise, make him our leader, or at least create a clearly defined place for him. treave's suggestion about slow, controlled conversions come closest.

If we think a bit gamey, I think we'd rather keep the dude around - Vernydar's solution is just so boring, we freak out and kill the dude and miss out on the glorious action. It's been however many years, and our tribe remains, essentially, one which has won no wars, made no major feats of domination or expansion, and has rather made moderate and partial technological progress now punctuated by a volcanic eruption. This is our chance to kickstart some interesting developments in our civilisation. After all, we haven't yet relocated the barbarians - who knows what they, and any other tribes nearby, are now advanced up to? We have to decisively kill or adopt the wielder of fire, and after all our pussyfooting I think kill is a critical waste of time and opportunity.
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,049
Location
NZ
I think at the end of the day, this is the kind of dude we wanna have fighting alongside us.

Alongside our advanced weaponry, imagine having this fellow sending fireballs crashing into the enemy ranks and terrifying our foes. Even better if he can train other fire fanatics, and we get the 50,000BC equivalent of a mobile artillery unit.

I don't think council member is quite the right solution. Patriarch of the Flame or some such, and allow him to train the rest of the Fire clergy. Until the Water worshippers start showing off cool tricks and powers they're just going to have to suck it.
 

newcomer

Learned
Joined
May 23, 2012
Messages
919
The big question is whether he is satisfied by the Partriach of the Flame title, even on the unlikely occasion that he does not mind not being a council member wouldn't the zealots want to place him on the council seat?
 

Vernydar

Learned
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
579
Location
Italy
Well it seems that I cannot sway you guys. So be it then, I hope curufinwe will keep in mind at least that the portion of the tribe I represent is going to keep track of this guy and try to kill him as soon as he crosses the line of what is acceptable. Which by my predictions shall be pretty soon.

And no, no matter what you say I don't like putting cartoonish evil guys in the council :P
 
Joined
Mar 9, 2012
Messages
382
Project: Eternity
This is why I made the suggestion of proving loyalty and acceptance of water members of the tribe before we let him back. Letting us come back on his terms makes the entire tribe a pawn.
 

Monty

Arcane
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Messages
1,582
Location
Grognardia
the portion of the tribe I represent is going to keep track of this guy and try to kill him as soon as he crosses the line of what is acceptable

So going by your earlier theme I guess you're the 'Mace Windu' of the tribe? Remember how he ended up!
 

Curufinwe

Learned
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
271
Location
Italy
Ok. Lots of ideas have been bounced back and forth. Since no clear consensus was reached though, this update won't bring the narrative forward. I'll just put up the choices for voting. From what I have seen you have:

A) Kill the Wielder, grab his gem and carefully study it.
B) Kill the Wielder and toss the gem at the bottom of the lake.
C) Kill the Wielder and break the gem.
D) Make the Wielder our warleader.
E) Offer the Wielder a spot in the council, soothe him but don't give in to his apparent fanaticism.
F) Offer the Wielder a spot as spiritual leader of the fire religion.

And, secondly:

1) Let him train people freely.
2) Don't train people in the use of his powers until we know more.
3) Train a few moderates in the use of fire but watch what happens to them before starting a real training program.

Of course if choices A or B or C prevail the second choice won't be considered.

Get voting!
 

Vernydar

Learned
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
579
Location
Italy
C
with the caveat that if it does not work and we can't break it, throw it under the water.
 

Monty

Arcane
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Messages
1,582
Location
Grognardia
E3

I think it's better to keep him as part of a structure like the council where there are opposing views, as opposed to allowing him to build up an entirely separate powerbase (and eventually his followers may just ignore the council if this were the case and he weren't on the council). He will be the spiritual leader of the fire religion anyway as he's clearly its most powerful practitioner.
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
D1, but I'd be willing to switch the first part to F to defeat E or even E to defeat A, B, or C, should those suddenly surge.
 

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