On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

[Tigranes]

Man, that's gonna really split the votes.

F3 - I would find E3 acceptable, but as I said, I just don't see how putting him on the council as another member would satisfy him, and how we would be able to keep his special influence in check. Much better to carve out a special role for him which, at once, sates his desire to (spiritually) 'lead' the tribe, and allows us to, by definition of the 'special' role, segregate him somewhat so he doesn't have a say in everything the tribe does. The man is a specialist and expert, not a voice in our parliament or cabinet.

 

[treave]

Well, in the same way that some countries might have a Minister of Religious Affairs, or something.

Actually, how was our council made up again? Besides just having old people?

 

[Esquilax]

C

Tigranes: That's a decent point, but it has a serious drawback: what if people stop paying heed to the council and start paying heed to the person we've placed as "spiritual advisor"? Power resides where people believe it resides, and if the majority of individuals believe that our Holy Man is a higher authority than our council (and many of them will: for fuck's sake, his faith grants him tangible powers), then we'll quickly find the moderate council's authority usurped.

Putting him as a member of the council would allow us to curb his influence for the time and postpone his ambitions while we start looking for a Water Gem. It won't satisfy him, true, and he'll get the upper hand eventually if people see him as the living embodiment of Fire, but at least it'll give us some time to start looking for alternatives. Maybe we can send him on a suicide mission against the barbarians, use his zealotry against him. Or maybe we can attempt to assassinate him if he proves to be too much of a burden - we have knowledge of herbs, so surely we must have some knowledge of poisons too...

Mark my words, if we grant him his own special position/authority, our council will find themselves powerless quickly. The law of men is nothing compared to the will of gods, people will flock to this maniac. However, he's a useful maniac, so I want to keep him around until we've managed to neutralize the barbarians. E3 isn't much better, but it gives us time until we come up with something better.

Edit: I've flopped to C, it isn't worth it to me. Until you show me actual barbarians that are baying for our blood, I can't let this lunatic run amok.

 

[Urist McLurker]

snip

This. Completely this. I've voted for E3 already though.
Since I cannot into brofisting for the playground

 

[Esquilax]

I'm suggesting poison as a method of disposing of him once he's killed the barbarians for us because I don't think our obsidian weapons can harm him, since they come from the very fire that spawned him. Poison seems the way to go: our council would be blameless and we can hold him as a martyr to our faith after death (BUT, one who was emphatically still only a man).

Actually, a different alternative has just come to mind: why are we letting our moderate followers undergo the Holy Man's training? Why not have the most fanatical, die-hard fire-worshippers seek his tutelage? I propose that we send our most fanatical followers to train with him, then send them all on a very dangerous mission in the forest to engage the barbarians. Why? Because it's a win-win for us either way: if they beat the barbarians, then our enemies will be destroyed and the fanatics will be diminished in strength and number in combat (and afterwards we can kill them off with our force of moderates). However, if they lose, then we'll have a bunch of dead fanatics and a weakened barbarian threat that our moderates can deal with.

We already know that this gem is big trouble, it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. We know this thing is bad fucking news and that it might poison the minds of our followers. Do we really need to have this guy poisoning the minds of moderates who are on our side to begin with? No, let him take those who would follow him anyways so that they might die in battle and trouble us no more.

I think it's a smart political move and a great way of "cleaning house" of unwanted fanatics.

 

[oscar]

E3

Even though I suggested the religious title option, it would really push our Fire worshippers into conflict with the Water ones and remove what little chance we have for toleration or a dual-faith. And as Esquilax suggested, he could become a dangerous alternative to the more secular and moderate rule of the council. We don't want to make our tribesmen face a "do we listen to our Pope or our government?" moral dilemma everytime we disagree with him.

A tough and interesting choice though. I'd be willing to listen to the arguments for other options (if they don't involve killing him).

 

[m4davis]

switching to E3

 

[Hirato]

F makes sense, but this man is far too fanatical and deranged and as such I don't think he'd use our dominant religion as a driving force for positive influence and goals.
But he is obviously still an excellent ally to have...

I'm voting E3 it seems the most sensible option, but I am unsure at present whether it not it's a good idea to let him stay regardless.
Even on the council, he is still a physical manifestation of a fire spirit and might be able to gather up the various followers and overthrow our tribe and leaders, assuming it doesn't lead to a schism and outright civil war.
So I might flip flop to C later...

Flipping to C after further discussion.

Fuck it, let's do something crazy, F3

 

[Jick Magger]

E3, don't want to split our tribe up on religious matters and we don't just want everybody to have the ability to reign fire onto the earth.

I'm not quite as worried about the barbarians as you guys are. I'm not saying we shouldn't take them seriously as a possible threat, but I doubt their anywhere near as strong or active as they were over fifty years ago. Since we've literally heard NOTHING from or about them for decades, and the one other tribe that we have interacted with didn't even mentioned them, I can only assume they've either settled down with their territory, been wiped out, have long since dissolved due to infighting, or something along those lines.

Hell, I'm even starting to doubt whether or not they existed at all, maybe those water tribesman are hiding something from us.

And I read the epilogue for act 1, and I ain't getting the vibe that tampering with the wards is gonna be bad for us. All it seems to be implying is that we're threatening to upset the position of a group of vaguely implied mystical beings, and that they're worried about it. If they try to intervene, then we'll have to stop them, won't we? We're essentially stealing fire from the gods, and you want us to stop and bend over for them instead? I don't think so, Tim.

You're also assuming he's stupid enough to not notice and counteract obvious and blatant attempts to have him and his followers killed through suicide missions. I'd imagine that if he suspected even for a second that the council wanted him dead, he'd either raise a coup, burn the whole tribe down, or take his followers to the next tribe of backwards assholes. Assuming they aren't killed, are you sure the tribespeople would be so willing to kill their own people, the ones who managed to increase the strength and influence of the tribe? The only feasible option that we have which won't result in either the council being overthrown or the tribe being slaughtered is to keep him around.

 

[Esquilax]

If they're not that strong, then we don't exactly need him, now do we? As far as I'm concerned, we would need the Wielder of Fire to counter the barbarian's supernatural gifts with his own. If we can beat them with our own skill, without any of his power, then what good is he? Fuck him then, he's not worth it.

I don't think teaching the moderates his powers is a good idea at all. It's simply a way to turn moderates into more fanatics. If we only teach people who agree with him, we can send them off to battle to die and ensure a smaller overall number of fanatics. I'm sure most of you bros have played KotOR II 7 times, so let me use that as an example: when Revan was building an army, he used the battle of Malachor V as a conversion ground. Jedi who were firmly Light Side would die in the battle, while those who survived ended up falling to the Dark Side due to the psychological trauma they experienced.

This is sort of the same thing. We have two groups forming within our society: (1) Moderate Fire Worshippers/Water Worshippers (same thing for all intents and purposes) and (2) Fire Fanatics. If we send the fanatics off to a battle they have no hope of winning, most of them will die, which means that there are going to be way more moderates than there are fanatics.

EDIT: Looking for the Water Gem should be a last resort. The last time we found a gem, the volcano erupted. If we seek a water gem, I'm pretty sure a flood or a tsunami aren't going to be far behind.

 

[Tigranes]

Very well, Esquilax is persuasive.

E3

 

[Hirato]

We don't really know if this power has corrupted the fire keeper. It's wholly possible that he was fanatical from the beginning and perhaps had some latent magical ability that safeguarded him until he took the fire ward.
There's also the distinct possibility that only fanatics will be able to harness its power and as Esquillax sort of mentioned, there's no guarantee that any moderates trained in its use will be able to do so without becoming fanatical themselves.

There's just too many variables to consider.

 

[newcomer]

But if the moderates managed to learn the power, we can secretly create an "Antipope of the Flame" to undermine his power. Pick the smartest, wisest, men with strong support on moderation stance for training. If at least one of them remains moderate at the end of the training (assuming he succeeds), we can vote to make him an "assistant", so we can send the fanatics to battle & let this assistant take the responsibility of training new recruits. If this wielder of fire tries to do anything funny, we can encourage this assistant to challenge his authority, making it a lot easier to dispose him.

 

[Esquilax]

You're also assuming he's stupid enough to not notice and counteract obvious and blatant attempts to have him and his followers killed through suicide missions. I'd imagine that if he suspected even for a second that the council wanted him dead, he'd either raise a coup, burn the whole tribe down, or take his followers to the next tribe of backwards assholes. Assuming they aren't killed, are you sure the tribespeople would be so willing to kill their own people, the ones who managed to increase the strength and influence of the tribe? The only feasible option that we have which won't result in either the council being overthrown or the tribe being slaughtered is to keep him around.

Or we can say that he's an evil spirit who set the mountain on fire and have him killed and break his gem. This would work, but we would only be able to do it now, before he's managed to entrench himself into the tribe. I have to say, C is looking more and more attractive: I am coming around to what Vernydar was saying.

But if the moderates managed to learn the power, we can secretly create an "Antipope of the Flame" to undermine his power. Pick the smartest, wisest, men with strong support on moderation stance for training. If at least one of them remains moderate at the end of the training (assuming he succeeds), we can vote to make him an "assistant", so we can send the fanatics to battle & let this assistant take the responsibility of training new recruits. If this wielder of fire tries to do anything funny, we can encourage this assistant to challenge his authority, making it a lot easier to dispose him.

Hmm, this could also work. Good idea.

 

[Jick Magger]

Or we can say that he's an evil spirit who set the mountain on fire and have him killed and break his gem. This would work, but we would only be able to do it now, before he's managed to entrench himself into the tribe. I have to say, C is looking more and more attractive: I am coming around to what Vernydar was saying.

I will admit; if you wanna kill him, now's the best and probably only opportunity you're ever gonna get.

I wouldn't recommend smashing or even touching the gem, either.

But if the moderates managed to learn the power, we can secretly create an "Antipope of the Flame" to undermine his power. Pick the smartest, wisest, men with strong support on moderation stance for training. If at least one of them remains moderate at the end of the training (assuming he succeeds), we can vote to make him an "assistant", so we can send the fanatics to battle & let this assistant take the responsibility of training new recruits. If this wielder of fire tries to do anything funny, we can encourage this assistant to challenge his authority, making it a lot easier to dispose him.

Because sending Colby in to deal with Colonel Kurtz worked out so brilliantly.

 

[Esquilax]

All of this back and forth has made me realize that yes, there are way too many variables and way too many ways that taking this guy in can go wrong, and very few ways that it can go right. At the very best, we manage to defeat the barbarians and split our tribe into two groups of Fanatics vs Moderates: possible civil war. At the very worst, we completely give ourselves in to the Flame, become utter savages - technologically, culturally and socially stagnant. And possibly end up attracting the scorn of mystical forces far more dangerous than the ones we have a very tenuous command of.

Let's wait until a more moderate, beneficial religion comes along. One that we can forge a lasting empire with, one with an actual future. The fanaticism of the Wielder of Fire speaks of is as fickle as the flame itself - it burns bright, but it burns out just as quickly.

I'm adding up all the pros and cons here, and I'm seeing that things are not going to work out with this guy. I don't see any way this ends up being a net positive. I'd rather rely on our strength, skill and cunning to defeat whatever comes our way than make this Faustian bargain. As far as I'm concerned, relying on this guy because we're afraid of what's out there is the coward's way out. We will persevere.

 

[m4davis]

Yeah the thing is killing him or trying to kill him can end just as bad or worse.

 

[newcomer]

To me this is a high risk-high reward gamble. If we win, we get a fire-hurling siege weapon until the discovery of a true siege weapon, which can easily takes thousands of years. We may have to pay the price of a civil war, but if its only few fanatics vs. the rest of the tribe, I doubt that we lose, question is more on casualties (might have to rebuild village from ashes). On the other hand, losing the gamble would mean we will turn ourselves into the same barbarian we are fighting right now, and the plains tribe might move to subdue us even if the mysterious people did not act.

 

[treave]

We don't really know if this power has corrupted the fire keeper. It's wholly possible that he was fanatical from the beginning and perhaps had some latent magical ability that safeguarded him until he took the fire ward.
There's also the distinct possibility that only fanatics will be able to harness its power and as Esquillax sort of mentioned, there's no guarantee that any moderates trained in its use will be able to do so without becoming fanatical themselves.

There's just too many variables to consider.

That's why we hold on off training too many people until we can find out whether the gem corrupts. Basically we're throwing him a bone and at the same time testing the limits of the gem's 'persuasiveness'.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

A. I don't see how keeping this guy alive can end up going well (or not predictable and boring) for this LP. And he was batshit before he touched the gem, so I doubt it's anything more than a tool - one from which we all could benefit.

I realize there's no way this option is going to win, at this point, but hell if I ever pick something in which I don't believe.

 

[oscar]

Wait a tick, what has this guy said that is just so bad?

"Our tribe is destined for glory and lets go kick some ass and bring the light of the Flame to the heathens!"

Why this assumption that he's going to stagnate us? Substitute Flame for Jesus and you've got 19th century Europe, the most technologically advanced and culturally nations on the planet.

 

[Tigranes]

We've been 'not having gambles' pretty much since the dawn of our civilisation - and our only major, defining breakthrough, the discovery and use of Obsidian, thus came about by accident. I don't think it's such a bad thing to take a gamble now and then as long as the payoff is worth it and there's a reasonable chance we'll ride the wave. The dude is clearly deranged, but that's only to be expected (and a calm, sane, rational Wielder of Fire is no less dangerous) - he has come back to the tribe, he wants to help the tribe to glory, and by the way, our non-spectacular, prosaic worship of fire all these years hasn't exactly yielded tangible social or military benefits. Kill him right now and we're taking yet more steps back, or at least, on the same spot - I doubt we can figure out how the magic works by having our 'wise and learned' clubmen study things.

 

[kazgar]

F3

If we fuck up, the lp ends, and we can just reload and start again and this time maybe get bear cavalry.

Though slightly more seriously I doubt Curufinwe is just going to give us a 'game over' conditiion, it's not AOD. If we take a hit, we take it, and we roll on, wiser. It's the journey, not the destination.

 

[m4davis]

Its more likely at this point if we fail the tribe will fragment into several smaller tribes or even individuals provided they were hit hard enough and we would be asked to take control of one of them

 

[Vernydar]

I will make one last attempt though I realize from the votes already cast that this is not going my way.

Or we can say that he's an evil spirit who set the mountain on fire and have him killed and break his gem. This would work, but we would only be able to do it now, before he's managed to entrench himself into the tribe. I have to say, C is looking more and more attractive: I am coming around to what Vernydar was saying.

The point here is that you're all being extremely optimistic and imagining the best possible outcomes, or considering it a gamble. I think most of you are not weighting the risks and rewards well enough.
- I hear you talking of "balancing his power with the power of the water spirits". What guarantee is there we will even find the water spirits? And if we do, won't this guy manage to make their followers be heretics? Will they even live enough to be accepted by the tribe?
- Likewise, the idea of an antipope. Even if we find the water spirits, will we take down another ward? I say no, so we won't have someone as powerful as this guy
- Or, the councilmen should curb his influence. Really? Won't he have them killed by his fanatics? Assassinated maybe in the night? Corrupted by his gem? What guarantee is there that they can do anything about him?
- Also, you assume that we can have him teach to the moderates and avoid them going fanatics. What guarantee is there? If his very teaching or the stone make people become fanatics, they will BE fanatics, no matter what they were before.
- You seem to think he could be easy to remove. How? No esquilax, we know NO poisons. Curufinwe never mentioned it, I think it's safe to believe we do not know them. Will you confront his fanatics with weapons? Hope they are reasonable?
- You also seem to think the savages are influenced by another spirit. That could be but, what proof is there? They could also be smoking .... unhealthy plants. We simply have no idea. If they are not, all this point is moot
- Finally, you all seem to think he will be reasonable in conquest. I think not. I think he will give any people we manage to conquer the "convert or die" dilemma. Seriously, what good will a bunch of corpses do to us?

Wait a tick, what has this guy said that is just so bad?

How about the smooth skin? The red eyes? The crackling voice? The red eyes? The cheap theatrics he does? The red eyes? The emphasis on the fact he's only going to teach the ones who follow him? And let's not forget the red eyes?
This guy is cartoonish evil all the way. At the very BEST, he's a dangerous fanatic. At worst, he could be evil and/or mind controlled.

End of the line, the things come down to the fact that you're putting a dangerous person with possible external influences and at the very least psycopathic tendencies in a position of power with little chances to evict him easily should things go bad.

By the way my vote is to break the gem, and if not possible dump it in the lake. C -> B