DraQ
Arcane
...with a semi-Vancian system, of all things.
There are a lot of problems with cRPG stat systems - intelligence is generally unenforceable (because if you make a stat-wise moron and want to play him as brilliant tactician and clever problem solver you will - any hurdles dumb system will throw your way are just going to be additional challenges in the game of circumvention and problem solving the *ACTUAL* intelligence is), while dump stats make stat systems pointless and character building a chore.
OTOH there are recurring tropes in fantasy cRPGs that just don't make sense, even if they are backed by good, out of universe reasons (like single use spell tomes, or the highest priority target in an adventuring party always wearing bathrobe as their sole protection) - it woud be nice if they either started making sense or disappeared altogether.
What if I told you that you can fix all those problems using, of all things, a semi-Vancian system (Vancian spellcasting is yet another position on the list of popular fantasy RPG tropes that just don't make sense), and a one inspired by DOS2 (which completely dropped the ball as far as atributes are concerned) at that? Read on.
Intelligence stat, as it's been discussed elsewhere, is a lost cause. You can't make a dumb system to act as a referee for an attribute that deals, among other things, with breaking out of dumb systems. If you want attribute based dialogue, you can have eloquence stat, spellcasting may use willpower or some magic affinity or whatever, but intelligence needs to go.
Regarding other stats, it's easy to make them all attractive to most sorts of characters - a warrior still needs dexterity to be more than an easily dispatched thug and pack mule, a sneaky type can benefit from strength for all sorts of surprise grappling that should be prerequisite for any sort of stealthy physical takedown (you generally can't expect to stab a guy and have him go down instantly and quietly), archers actually need to be fucking strong first and foremost, but what about mages?
You can make a case for dexterity being useful for spellcasting types as they rely on complex, arcane gestures and rituals - it could dramatically affect casting time, for example, defensive attributes like endurance are rather universally useful as well, doubly so if you have a lot of weaponizable envirnomental hazards or cast from stamina, but (muscle wizards aside) what about strength? An obvious use of strength would be getting the highest priority target in the party the best protection money can buy, especially given that caster doesn't really need much mobility. That would be potentially an interesting twist in your traditional fantasy, but it might face balance problems, plus you might want to hold onto your bathrobes for various reasons - is there another way?
Turns out there is. First let's assume that we don't have stupid vanishing spell tomes mechanics, which clearly exists only for game-y reason - making used spell tomes non-resellable. Now take wizard's personal spellbook, which in most cases exists as purely UI vestige anyway, and throw it the fuck away. Now, let's ponder the reason why spells come in tomes or at least on scrolls anyway (instead of just scraps of paper - even a scroll can still contain a lot of material) and why not every fucktarded youngling can be a wizard: a spell, even if it can be cast quickly, is clearly a lot of esoteric, hard to grok and even harder to master material that's probably full of minutiae that can get your face to implode and spew demons if you get them wrong. Humans and presumably other sapients, it turns out, aren't that great at learning and memorization of large amounts of detail critical material - it requires time, effort and tends to not stick around when it's not used, especially when you need to study and memorize something else - there is a reason why pilots and astronauts go through detailed rehearsals of every little thing and still have to use written checklists. Therefore I propose that wizards have to prepare and study their (non-vanishing) spell tomes every time they change their spell loadout (which requires making camp) - individual spells may take different amount of "memory space" rather than having definite tiers and of course, unlike full Vancian silliness, they don't need to prepare fireball twice in order to cast it twice. Of course, to be able to change your spell loadout you need to keep your books, and if you are navigating a dungeon, you need to carry them on your person and they are going to be quite heavy - this makes strength a useful choice (you can add reagents as well) and still precludes wearing heavy armour in most circumstances - robes turn out to be quite practical attire. Of course, you can encumber another member of the group, but this will cut into their armour allowance - meaning potentially less tanky tank, stealth ability, or ammo capacity. You might use hired help too, but you need to take into account what happens if they are killed or run off.
The entire thought process was started by the latest Divinity game which features this kind of semi-Vancian system (but not the other things - in particular the attribute system is downright awful), so lar_q .
There are a lot of problems with cRPG stat systems - intelligence is generally unenforceable (because if you make a stat-wise moron and want to play him as brilliant tactician and clever problem solver you will - any hurdles dumb system will throw your way are just going to be additional challenges in the game of circumvention and problem solving the *ACTUAL* intelligence is), while dump stats make stat systems pointless and character building a chore.
OTOH there are recurring tropes in fantasy cRPGs that just don't make sense, even if they are backed by good, out of universe reasons (like single use spell tomes, or the highest priority target in an adventuring party always wearing bathrobe as their sole protection) - it woud be nice if they either started making sense or disappeared altogether.
What if I told you that you can fix all those problems using, of all things, a semi-Vancian system (Vancian spellcasting is yet another position on the list of popular fantasy RPG tropes that just don't make sense), and a one inspired by DOS2 (which completely dropped the ball as far as atributes are concerned) at that? Read on.
Intelligence stat, as it's been discussed elsewhere, is a lost cause. You can't make a dumb system to act as a referee for an attribute that deals, among other things, with breaking out of dumb systems. If you want attribute based dialogue, you can have eloquence stat, spellcasting may use willpower or some magic affinity or whatever, but intelligence needs to go.
Regarding other stats, it's easy to make them all attractive to most sorts of characters - a warrior still needs dexterity to be more than an easily dispatched thug and pack mule, a sneaky type can benefit from strength for all sorts of surprise grappling that should be prerequisite for any sort of stealthy physical takedown (you generally can't expect to stab a guy and have him go down instantly and quietly), archers actually need to be fucking strong first and foremost, but what about mages?
You can make a case for dexterity being useful for spellcasting types as they rely on complex, arcane gestures and rituals - it could dramatically affect casting time, for example, defensive attributes like endurance are rather universally useful as well, doubly so if you have a lot of weaponizable envirnomental hazards or cast from stamina, but (muscle wizards aside) what about strength? An obvious use of strength would be getting the highest priority target in the party the best protection money can buy, especially given that caster doesn't really need much mobility. That would be potentially an interesting twist in your traditional fantasy, but it might face balance problems, plus you might want to hold onto your bathrobes for various reasons - is there another way?
Turns out there is. First let's assume that we don't have stupid vanishing spell tomes mechanics, which clearly exists only for game-y reason - making used spell tomes non-resellable. Now take wizard's personal spellbook, which in most cases exists as purely UI vestige anyway, and throw it the fuck away. Now, let's ponder the reason why spells come in tomes or at least on scrolls anyway (instead of just scraps of paper - even a scroll can still contain a lot of material) and why not every fucktarded youngling can be a wizard: a spell, even if it can be cast quickly, is clearly a lot of esoteric, hard to grok and even harder to master material that's probably full of minutiae that can get your face to implode and spew demons if you get them wrong. Humans and presumably other sapients, it turns out, aren't that great at learning and memorization of large amounts of detail critical material - it requires time, effort and tends to not stick around when it's not used, especially when you need to study and memorize something else - there is a reason why pilots and astronauts go through detailed rehearsals of every little thing and still have to use written checklists. Therefore I propose that wizards have to prepare and study their (non-vanishing) spell tomes every time they change their spell loadout (which requires making camp) - individual spells may take different amount of "memory space" rather than having definite tiers and of course, unlike full Vancian silliness, they don't need to prepare fireball twice in order to cast it twice. Of course, to be able to change your spell loadout you need to keep your books, and if you are navigating a dungeon, you need to carry them on your person and they are going to be quite heavy - this makes strength a useful choice (you can add reagents as well) and still precludes wearing heavy armour in most circumstances - robes turn out to be quite practical attire. Of course, you can encumber another member of the group, but this will cut into their armour allowance - meaning potentially less tanky tank, stealth ability, or ammo capacity. You might use hired help too, but you need to take into account what happens if they are killed or run off.
The entire thought process was started by the latest Divinity game which features this kind of semi-Vancian system (but not the other things - in particular the attribute system is downright awful), so lar_q .