Review Orrery (Oblivion's add-on) review at ESF

[Naked_Lunch]

I can understand the letter being lost, but getting lost and winding up in the plane of Oblivion right in front of the player?

 

[Andyman Messiah]

It's a homing letter!

 

[dongle]

The piece of paper probably being this:

Nope

Here is the popup you receive immediately on starting the game after installing the plug-in:

This is the note, if one actually bothers to read it:

To whom it may concern:

You have been passed this note because you may be able to help the Mages Guild. The Council of Mages has not the resources; the Legion is either unwilling or unable to assist.

A shipment of Dwarven artifacts from Morrowind, destined for the Arcane University, was intercepted by bandits recently. Intending to sell the artifacts for profit, they have stolen items essential to repair the Imperial Orrery in Cyrodiil's capital.

The only known location of these bandits is Camp Ales, north of Kvatch. If you can find these ruffians and recover the items they've stolen, I will be most indebted. The Orrery is my life's work, and I would hate to see it pass into obscurity now.

Items missing:
2 Dwarven Cogs
1 Dwarven Coherer
1 Dwarven Cylinder
1 Dwarven Tube

-Bothiel

Notice that reading the note itself, while hardly a pillar of storytelling and immersion, is not at all necessarily to completing the quest. No pause in the "action", just jump right into killing bandits for fun and profit.


This is kinda a microcosm of Oblivion as a whole. There is one Mage Guild quest where you need to cast four spells in succession to uncover a door to the next area. There is a puzzle to figure out what spells to cast, and in what order. There are four plaques on the wall in the ancient tongue, and a phrasebook to help decipher them. (Just why the ancient and noble extinct race made a puzzle door, and then wrote the answer on the walls is left unexplained) Instead of the player looking at some interesting text on the plaques, then referring to the book to work out a meaning - you simply hand the book to an NPC, and click on his dialogue options. "Ah; 'XYZ', that phrase mentions fire, maybe try that spell first!" Etc, until he tells you all four spells to cast, and in what order. Interestingly too; this is the -only- Mage's Guild quest where one -needs- to cast magic on the quest path to Arch Mage. Only, they give you the scrolls needed to cast all four spells in a chest at the start of the dungeon. A quest that could have required using at least a couple of brain cells, and required a certain level of skill from the PC, can be solved by just clicking away.

100 odd devs spent four fucking years crafting this world, then someone pissed all over it. Tremendous potential. Story, back story, scope, art, tech are all there waiting to be made into a game. (well the tech is behind today's curve, but more than adequate for what's needed) Only, they put this layer of hand-holding on top that manages to squeeze out any challenge that doesn't require button mashing. They give you the solution to every challenge in a popup, usually before you even realize what the challenge is. In the process they managed to squeeze all the fun out too.

I don't know at what point this design decision was made. I can't imagine that it was decided from day one to build in a slew of challenges, then add in a layer that takes it all away again. If it was all done towards the end of the development cycle (and I concede I have zero proof of this) it may be some defense for MFSD coming in here and saying how brilliant the quests were going to be? The game could have made much more interesting had this design decision been made differently. Maybe not the bestest game of all time - but a lot, lot, better. On the other hand, maybe I'm just a fanboy that desperately wanted to believe the hype. . . .

There is a game in here someplace, screaming to get out. Bethesda has kept it shackled and locked away from us.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Stupid TES lore question.. How come they're "dwarven" now instead of Dumnir or whatever? That just what the dark elves, whatever the fuck they were called, called dwarves?

 

[Twinfalls]

Stop pretending - you know it (was) Dwemer.

Answer: Motherfucking Chocolate Milk.

 

[Lumpy]

Stupid TES lore question.. How come they're "dwarven" now instead of Dumnir or whatever? That just what the dark elves, whatever the fuck they were called, called dwarves?

Geeky TES lore answer: The Dunmer are the Dark Elves, who live in Morrowind. The Dwemer are an extinct race, who used to live in Morrowind, and who are commonly called Dwarves by the westerners.
"That just what the dark elves called dwarves?"
Huh???

 

[Twinfalls]

Question for those with the game - are the days of the week ever referred to by their wacky TES lore names - 'Sundas', 'Morndas', 'Tirdas'?

 

[Data4]

Question for those with the game - are the days of the week ever referred to by their wacky TES lore names - 'Sundas', 'Morndas', 'Tirdas'?

Back before release, I mentioned that I saw a screenshot using regular real world days of the week. Either it was beta, or I was imagining things, because they are using the lore correct names.

-D4

 

[Twinfalls]

They don't use 'Sunday, Monday', etc but what I mean is are the original days actually used at all? Because all the screenshots I've seen (inventory screen) show only the date and the month, not the actual day of the week. Whereas in DF you'd have 'Morndas, third of Frostfall or whatever'. I have yet to see a screen showing an actual TES day of the week in it.

It's a minor point.

But New Bethesda need to be watched like a goddam HAWK, I tells you.

 

[Data4]

Heh... I hear ya. You don't see the days of the week on the map or the journal, but you do when you rest or wait. Give me 5 minutes from the timestamp of this post and I'll take a screenshot for you.

EDIT: Voila

-D4

 

[Twinfalls]

It's OK - I take your word for it D4. Well done there, Bethesda!!! They're so brave.

There is one Mage Guild quest where you need to cast four spells in succession to uncover a door to the next area. There is a puzzle to figure out what spells to cast, and in what order. There are four plaques on the wall in the ancient tongue, and a phrasebook to help decipher them. (Just why the ancient and noble extinct race made a puzzle door, and then wrote the answer on the walls is left unexplained) Instead of the player looking at some interesting text on the plaques, then referring to the book to work out a meaning - you simply hand the book to an NPC, and click on his dialogue options. "Ah; 'XYZ', that phrase mentions fire, maybe try that spell first!" Etc, until he tells you all four spells to cast, and in what order. Interestingly too; this is the -only- Mage's Guild quest where one -needs- to cast magic on the quest path to Arch Mage. Only, they give you the scrolls needed to cast all four spells in a chest at the start of the dungeon. A quest that could have required using at least a couple of brain cells, and required a certain level of skill from the PC, can be solved by just clicking away.

Even after all I've heard about this game, that is some breathtaking dumbing down.

 

[7th Circle]

That "puzzle" in the Mages Guild quest mentioned by dongle was perhaps even more pathetic than dongle described.

Basically, you arrive at the enterance of the location and are told by npc 1 "We can't get this pillar removed to explore further but we know that some sequence of casting spells at it we will work (and the wrong sequence will get you magically shocked)." You then venture further into the "pillar area" and meet npc 2 who tells you there are inscriptions on the wall that should be useful if translated.

At this point I am thinking "Ok, how do we go about translating them". Then npc 2 says that npc 1 has a book that can translate them. Apparently, both npcs are sulking and so the second npc can't even be bothered trying to get the book from the first one even though he and other mages have been seriously injured trying to open the pillar. Of course, I had no trouble getting the book (although I tend to use a charm spell before talking to npcs).

When I bring the book back down, the npc at the pillar says "Read the inscriptions and I'll translate them". Now, I'm thinking "Ok, time to break some code". However, he not only translated the ruin but, without any prompting, worked out the code and suggested what spells to cast. Now I'm thinking "Great. Wasted puzzle opportunity but at least they are requiring that you have certain spells you can cast" (which seems appropriate for a Mages Guild quest). I only have two of the four types of spells and so leave the place and run around Cyrodil trying to find the other two to add to my collection.

I get the spells, open the pillar, kill the monsters, recovering the item in question and retun to the pillar room. I then look in a chest right near the pillar room and see scrolls of the relevant spell types (and a few others). :shock:

I was just floored at the sheer determination to make the quest as idiot proof as possible.

BTW, Twinfalls, there is a Dark Brotherhood mission where you are given someone's travel schedule and the days are also listed there in terms of Sundas etc.

 

[Hazelnut]

It's OK - I take your word for it D4. Well done there, Bethesda!!! They're so brave.

There is one Mage Guild quest where you need to cast four spells in succession to uncover a door to the next area. There is a puzzle to figure out what spells to cast, and in what order. There are four plaques on the wall in the ancient tongue, and a phrasebook to help decipher them. (Just why the ancient and noble extinct race made a puzzle door, and then wrote the answer on the walls is left unexplained) Instead of the player looking at some interesting text on the plaques, then referring to the book to work out a meaning - you simply hand the book to an NPC, and click on his dialogue options. "Ah; 'XYZ', that phrase mentions fire, maybe try that spell first!" Etc, until he tells you all four spells to cast, and in what order. Interestingly too; this is the -only- Mage's Guild quest where one -needs- to cast magic on the quest path to Arch Mage. Only, they give you the scrolls needed to cast all four spells in a chest at the start of the dungeon. A quest that could have required using at least a couple of brain cells, and required a certain level of skill from the PC, can be solved by just clicking away.

Even after all I've heard about this game, that is some breathtaking dumbing down.

Yeah - it really is quite astounding, and to be quite honest a hella lot worse than even most (rational) people here expected with the stupidity of the scaling system in addition to what we knew before release. I'm with dongle - this could have been a good game, okay maybe not the most pure RPG, but better than MW and DF in RP terms, along with the great graphics (I'm not a gfx whore exactly, but I sure am an easy lay) and effort put into building the world. There is still fun to be had, but I found it only came by eventually giving in to munkinism (to combat the level scaling system) and just going along for the ride. That's all it has to offer: an experience. No game, no challenge - and I am sorely disapointed like dongle.

I think that the descision to do voice acting for all speech had a huge and major detrimental effect on this game just on it's own. I realy, truely hope that the 'industry' does not assume that all games have to have this now... what a stupid decision. It's not even like most people even give a shit I bet... especially because everyone sounds the same. I always read the text and click when they're about four words in - I haven't got all day to listen to the dull stuff being said.

I'm just very glad I didn't actually buy this game, even though I bought MW and both expansions and don't regret it one bit - even if they weren't RPG nirvana, I definitely got my moneys worth. With the hours I've spent in Oblivion, it's like section8 says - it's all searching for the depth and trying to ignore the nagging sense of what has been designed out of the game. Still, I liked the graphics.

I'd love to know what MSFD thinks about the finished product - did he string us along, or was he unaware of what the finished game would be like?

 

[Claw]

If this is the message that is found, then the so-called reviewer is another one of the "redding is teh hard" audience. He understood it this way: the wizard looks at his crystal ball, and puts a note in front of you asking you to retrieve the components stolen by bandits who are keeping them rather than selling them.
What the mod's story actually is is: Bothiel sends a letter to Edwinna, asking for some Dwemer components needed to repair the orrery. The letter is lost, and the player finds it.

Actually, it's you who belongs to the "redding is teh hard" audicence. I don't even know whose reply is more idiotic, Lord "there is no note" Chambers or yours.
I've read the review, and he doesn't believe anything. He wonders how it could be plausible that he finds the note - in Oblivion of all places. He doesn't believe it was put there in front of him, that was merely a speculation, and probably not even meant entirely seriously at that.

PS: Now that I read the note, it really seems directed at the player character. Which is just as bad when the message pops up in the wrong place.

 

[User was nabbed fit]

Whoa, déjà vu.

The thing is... I posted that exact same thing on these forums, a while ago... It was even linked in this thread; I said that someone else originally wrote it, but I also said that I "tidied it up a bit"... quite a lot, actually (well, I didn't take the time to give it a perfect 'polish', either, as I couldn't be bothered), but nevermind.

Here's the original text (notice changes in style, grammar, orthography et cetera -- but really, just some quick Frenchy fixes to make it more presentable):
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... rrery&st=0

Edit: Oh, the irony, I misspelled "orthography".
Edit2: Oh yeah, just to make it perfectly clear: I'm not the person who posted that at the ESF!

 

[bryce777]

I'm looking forward to exciting addons such as 'kitchen' and the livingroom furniture expansion pack.

In kitchen, you get to create your own meals! Ok, well, not reall - you tell the chef what meals you want and they appear in a chest outside the kitchen.

 

[Lord Chambers]

I don't even know whose reply is more idiotic, Lord "there is no note" Chambers or yours.

I didn't realize that a note was "added to your inventory," so that part of my response is based on a faulty premise. His criticism of this immersion breaking is worthwhile. Still, I don't see the point of being a literalist about how you get the quests when it's such a bagatelle compared to what else is wrong with Oblivion. If I were writing an Orrey review it would not be 60% ranting about the interface's quest notes and fast travel. It'd be about more substantial issues like that I paid $2 for 10 minutes worth of mindlessness, and how paying for the same unfufilling mindlessness that composes the rest of the game is a bad business plan.

Ok, well, not really - you tell the chef what meals you want and they appear in a chest outside the kitchen.

How?

 

[Claw]

I didn't realize that a note was "added to your inventory," so that part of my response is based on a faulty premise.

Well, I know. But to me, it was more a question of giving the poster the benfit of doubt by assuming the quest popup informed him about finding a note or assuming that he's retarded - "confused" as you more gently put it. You shouldn't have based such harsh criticism on a mere assumption.

If I were writing an Orrey review it would not be 60% ranting about the interface's quest notes and fast travel. It'd be about more substantial issues like that I paid $2 for 10 minutes worth of mindlessness,

I think you misunderstood the poster. Fast travel is just mentioned for the unfortunate role it plays in reducing the quest to 10 minutes of mindlessness. As I understood it, there was no feeling of doing any actual questing.
The orrey quest wcould have let the player follow clues to find the locations of the orrey parts, maybe find some interesting hints regarding the backstory.
Instead, there are no clues, no backstory - just some quest markers on the map so you can fast-travel there. The developers clearly didn't want to inconvience the player by forcing him to actually search for those parts.

Ok, well, not really - you tell the chef what meals you want and they appear in a chest outside the kitchen.

How?

I suppose you put a sample of what you want in the chest and wait for 24 ingame hours.

 

[LlamaGod]

you go up to your chef and go 'PANCAKES' and he goes 'you got it, boss' and then his radiant AI makes him set his dog on fire and the guards kill you both for it.

 

[pantheon]

This is kinda a microcosm of Oblivion as a whole. There is one Mage Guild quest where you need to cast four spells in succession to uncover a door to the next area. There is a puzzle to figure out what spells to cast, and in what order. There are four plaques on the wall in the ancient tongue, and a phrasebook to help decipher them. (Just why the ancient and noble extinct race made a puzzle door, and then wrote the answer on the walls is left unexplained) Instead of the player looking at some interesting text on the plaques, then referring to the book to work out a meaning - you simply hand the book to an NPC, and click on his dialogue options. "Ah; 'XYZ', that phrase mentions fire, maybe try that spell first!" Etc, until he tells you all four spells to cast, and in what order. Interestingly too; this is the -only- Mage's Guild quest where one -needs- to cast magic on the quest path to Arch Mage. Only, they give you the scrolls needed to cast all four spells in a chest at the start of the dungeon. A quest that could have required using at least a couple of brain cells, and required a certain level of skill from the PC, can be solved by just clicking away.

100 odd devs spent four fucking years crafting this world, then someone pissed all over it. Tremendous potential. Story, back story, scope, art, tech are all there waiting to be made into a game. (well the tech is behind today's curve, but more than adequate for what's needed) Only, they put this layer of hand-holding on top that manages to squeeze out any challenge that doesn't require button mashing. They give you the solution to every challenge in a popup, usually before you even realize what the challenge is. In the process they managed to squeeze all the fun out too.

I don't know at what point this design decision was made. I can't imagine that it was decided from day one to build in a slew of challenges, then add in a layer that takes it all away again. If it was all done towards the end of the development cycle (and I concede I have zero proof of this) it may be some defense for MFSD coming in here and saying how brilliant the quests were going to be? The game could have made much more interesting had this design decision been made differently. Maybe not the bestest game of all time - but a lot, lot, better. On the other hand, maybe I'm just a fanboy that desperately wanted to believe the hype. . . .

There is a game in here someplace, screaming to get out. Bethesda has kept it shackled and locked away from us.

Well said dongle!
This is my major gripe with the game.
What a waste!!!
No thinking required, no reading, no mystery, no roleplaying....
I also wonder how the dev's feel about this - some won't be happy!
I can understand why the FPS crowd love it! - compared to other FPS games it is a step up in thinking. How could we possible think the game is dumped down???

 

[Kendar]

Interestingly too; this is the -only- Mage's Guild quest where one -needs- to cast magic on the quest path to Arch Mage. Only, they give you the scrolls needed to cast all four spells in a chest at the start of the dungeon.

That's the best example of the entire game, I think. It looks like they are afraid of doing things right. The Codex should interview Howard for TES V, the question being asked that way :
"How are the consequences to our choices handled ? For example, it's obvious that being a member of the thieves guild/dark brotherhood will completely nullify my chances of being a member of the fighters guild. But will they attack me on sight ? Is there an "evil" fighters guild ?"
In other words, asking just like what they obviously won't do was a given you don't even think of questionning.

 

[LlamaGod]

Evil/Neutral/Good variations of the same faction would be fun, provided they did them rather right.

Then again, you cant actually be truely evil (besides being an assassin) in their games as all quests are non-failable and they are usually good quests.

Evil - Mercenaries
Neutral - Fighters
Good - Paladins

Their quests would be similiar, but with a different spin and a different focus and probably different rewards. Becoming leader of each could be fun if done right, too.

For Mages it could be like:

Evil - Warlocks (focus on damaging magics)
Neutral - Mages (focus on all magics)
Good - Priests (focus on helping magics)

but this might confuse Johnny B. Casual and his apparent IQ of 8.