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Incline OSR Games - Official thread

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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I don't think a DCO whatever would be very good, since there's no way to do the By-Frosens justice with current game design. Veins, again, has so many good ideas, but how the fuck do you even make something like the Hand guy gameable?
Well, that's the fun part. Games like PS:T and Disco Elysium expanded what you can expect from an RPG, I would hope such a game would do the same. one thing is trying to shoe-horn the By-Frosens into Skyrim, the other is to develop a game where they play an important role.

I mean, we had rival adventurers in Wizardry VII, 28 years ago...

the by-frosens:
- attempt to outthink the players
- use undead to spy on you, ambush you in inventive ways, etc
- use this spying to figure out how to specifically counter you

This isn't really something a game has done before, at best I can imagine the Shadow of Mordor nemesis system on crack.
But if it's a CRPG, then it's not like the players have infinite options and paths anyway... it's a compromise, but you can make a few scripted encounters & ambushes along the way, some that have a chance to permanently remove them from the game if you play smart.

Again, this is not a minor thing, the whole race to the observatory is more than half of the adventure. Lots of RPGs already offer a lot of reactivity based on dialog choices, this is just adapting that to combat instead.

And yeah, KOTC2 is perfect for adapting some OSR modules. Would love to play Stonehell Dungeon in it.
 
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
761
I don't think a DCO whatever would be very good, since there's no way to do the By-Frosens justice with current game design. Veins, again, has so many good ideas, but how the fuck do you even make something like the Hand guy gameable?
Well, that's the fun part. Games like PS:T and Disco Elysium expanded what you can expect from an RPG, I would hope such a game would do the same. one thing is trying to shoe-horn the By-Frosens into Skyrim, the other is to develop a game where they play an important role.

I mean, we had rival adventurers in Wizardry VII, 28 years ago...

the by-frosens:
- attempt to outthink the players
- use undead to spy on you, ambush you in inventive ways, etc
- use this spying to figure out how to specifically counter you

This isn't really something a game has done before, at best I can imagine the Shadow of Mordor nemesis system on crack.
But if it's a CRPG, then it's not like the players have infinite options and paths anyway... it's a compromise, but you can make a few scripted encounters & ambushes along the way, some that have a chance to permanently remove them from the game if you play smart.

Again, this is not a minor thing, the whole race to the observatory is more than half of the adventure. Lots of RPGs already offer a lot of reactivity based on dialog choices, this is just adapting that to combat instead.

And yeah, KOTC2 is perfect for adapting some OSR modules. Would love to play Stonehell Dungeon in it.

If it doesnt have:
- monster reaction tables
- gold for xp
- multiple excursions, a nearby safe zone to dump your riches, etc

then it's not "perfect" for adapting OSR modules. Stonehell isn't "good" because it would be good for a popamole video game, it's good because it's Megadungeon Perfection.

Like you're clearly missing on what makes OSR games, and what makes megadungeons cool and good games to play. I'd happily run Stonehell for you in my homebrew so you could see what megadungeons are like and understand that we're way behind technologically on figuring that shit out.

Like when I ran stonehell, the players built a fuckin' castle on top of, and around it, and turned it into a full-time operation, and also friendlied up with a few factions so they'd had a personal army of what should be monsters. There was....attitude problems from time to time that needed to be corrected, but for the most part, this made them become like Dark Lords to everyone around them, eventually a small army of paladins tried to break through and failed to do so, once that party had managed to beat the dragon into submission and bind it with eldritch magics from a nearby cult and turn it into a personal, one time use(GM fiat, it was threatening to turn the campaign off the rails) superweapon.

None of the shit in that paragraph is even possible in most video games, because you cannot look at a video game, and go "hey, could I possibly...uh, enslave this dragon?" because if it wasn't pre-programmed into a limited set of possible interactions it can't happen.

I am aware of games like Dwarf Fortress where shit like this can happen, but many of those games are designed more around seeing what outlandish nonsense the game can turn your inputs into. There's no game of dungeons and dragons or tabletop roleplaying game where you can accidentally kill everyone because you didn't kill a cat and they exploded their population like tribbles, started dying, which caused your players to eat the rotting flesh, go insane, and kill one another. That's not a role playing game, that's you rolling on a table of "weird shit happens" and telling the players what went down.

Never talk to me about OSR games again or I'll have Infinitron eject me
 
Last edited:

Sacibengala

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Stonehell is cool and all, but did you saw Castle Xyntillan? I tought it was pretty good .
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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Like you're clearly missing on what makes OSR games, and what makes megadungeons cool and good games to play. I'd happily run Stonehell for you in my homebrew so you could see what megadungeons are like and understand that we're way behind technologically on figuring that shit out.

Like when I ran stonehell, the players built a fuckin' castle on top of, and around it, and turned it into a full-time operation, and also friendlied up with a few factions so they'd had a personal army of what should be monsters. There was....attitude problems from time to time that needed to be corrected, but for the most part, this made them become like Dark Lords to everyone around them, eventually a small army of paladins tried to break through and failed to do so, once that party had managed to beat the dragon into submission and bind it with eldritch magics from a nearby cult and turn it into a personal, one time use(GM fiat, it was threatening to turn the campaign off the rails) superweapon.
Oh FFS, just because you play OSR like that doesn't mean it's the ONE TRUE WAY™ to play. I could run a DCO campaign where the party diverges the river to flood the observatory (they ARE close) and turn it into a weird underwater maze, but then it makes no sense to go "You explored it dry? You're missing out on the potential of tabletop gaming!".

Besides, an OSR adaptation for computers cannot and does not need to be a 1:1 copy of the tabletop experience. I mean, would Fallout 1 be better if you could take over Mariposa Base and use it to create your own army of mutants, force the Master to work for you and conquer the world? Yeah, would be cool, but the base game is already a great video game. Being able to play tabletop Fallout as Mr. Handy does not automatically makes it better. They are just different experiences.
 
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
761
Like you're clearly missing on what makes OSR games, and what makes megadungeons cool and good games to play. I'd happily run Stonehell for you in my homebrew so you could see what megadungeons are like and understand that we're way behind technologically on figuring that shit out.

Like when I ran stonehell, the players built a fuckin' castle on top of, and around it, and turned it into a full-time operation, and also friendlied up with a few factions so they'd had a personal army of what should be monsters. There was....attitude problems from time to time that needed to be corrected, but for the most part, this made them become like Dark Lords to everyone around them, eventually a small army of paladins tried to break through and failed to do so, once that party had managed to beat the dragon into submission and bind it with eldritch magics from a nearby cult and turn it into a personal, one time use(GM fiat, it was threatening to turn the campaign off the rails) superweapon.
Oh FFS, just because you play OSR like that doesn't mean it's the ONE TRUE WAY™ to play. I could run a DCO campaign where the party diverges the river to flood the observatory (they ARE close) and turn it into a weird underwater maze, but then it makes no sense to go "You explored it dry? You're missing out on the potential of tabletop gaming!".

Besides, an OSR adaptation for computers cannot and does not need to be a 1:1 copy of the tabletop experience. I mean, would Fallout 1 be better if you could take over Mariposa Base and use it to create your own army of mutants, force the Master to work for you and conquer the world? Yeah, would be cool, but the base game is already a great video game. Being able to play tabletop Fallout as Mr. Handy does not automatically makes it better. They are just different experiences.


Okay.

Breathe in. Breathe out.

1. This is just how most people play OSR games. It's fun. Nobody said this is the one true way either, Mike Mornard famously stated that nobody wanted or liked domain play when he played back in the 1970's, they'd just retire maxed out characters and make new ones, and the maxed out chars would become NPCs in the world.
2. If you're not going to have faction play, player skill, etc, then it's not OSR, even if you use the maps. If you played EotB with the Stonehell dungeon modded in, it wouldn't be OSR, just a really shit mod for EotB.
3. Fallout 1 is not an OSR game, and is, in fact, a computer RPG. You couldn't run Fallout 1 on the tabletop without a significant amount of boring, railroady trash in a TTRPG.

You seem to think that you can just slap OSR maps into a shitty popamole game and go "see! it's osr!" and that's dumb. You have yet to explain to me how you could make a game have enemies that bend over backwards trying to fuck you and use cheater tactics that are adapted to player choices and actions without it being the single greatest breakthrough in AI tech in video game history. Im not going to respond to anything you post from now on unless you explain how this could be done on modern hardware, using similar examples. If not, stop trying to take one medium (tabletop rpgs) and force it into another medium (computer rpgs).

Stonehell is cool and all, but did you saw Castle Xyntillan? I tought it was pretty good .

I ran it for a few sessions before my players got the Roni. They liked it.
 

felipepepe

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You seem to think that you can just slap OSR maps into a shitty popamole game and go "see! it's osr!" and that's dumb.
Stop being such a blind puritan, I never said "they would play EXACTLY as an OSR tabletop game!", I said the exact opposite, that an OSR adaptation for computers "cannot and does not need to be a 1:1 copy of the tabletop experience".

Seriously, by your logic 20 years ago you would be complaining that Baldur's Gate is NOT real D&D because it doesn't have a GM. Or that Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil is an offense to the original module. Different media, different experiences.

You have yet to explain to me how you could make a game have enemies that bend over backwards trying to fuck you and use cheater tactics that are adapted to player choices and actions without it being the single greatest breakthrough in AI tech in video game history. Im not going to respond to anything you post from now on unless you explain how this could be done on modern hardware, using similar examples. If not, stop trying to take one medium (tabletop rpgs) and force it into another medium (computer rpgs).
How has this NOT been done before? I'm not talking about the AI organically reacting to you building a castle and enslaving a dragon. As I said the first time you asked "it's a compromise, but you can make a few scripted encounters & ambushes". Like every RPG out there.

Back in 1992 we had Wizardry 7 with multiple parties running around an open world, fighting each other and stealing quest items. And you could kill them, negotiate, buy items, make them like you... 28 years ago! Have you played Age of Decadence? There are multiple encounters that can be solved by dialog only, reputation, a set of skill checks, an extremely difficult battle or an easy battle, all depending on your choices, factions, classes, items, etc...

DCO is good for this because it's relatively linear as far as RPG modules go. You have a limited path towards an objective and a heavy time pressure to reach it. The remastered version already has some scenarios & tactics to run the by-frosen, like zombies interrupting the party's sleep, setting up a fake camp, using a helpless NPC as bait, etc... script a bunch of those, mix them with variables like set encounter in the map or other NPCs being alive/dead and make them shuffle around every playthrough, so it's not something easy to predict.

And, AGAIN, it does not need to be a 1:1 copy of the tabletop game.
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
It's starting to bug me that I've been able to finally track down fairly clean copies of the original BX rule books for a decent price before I've received my OSE books.

Has anyone gotten any news about the shipment that was arriving on the 23rd? Unless I didn't get a email I haven't seen an update anywhere.

Anyhow on top OSE starting getting they're kickstarter page set up.

What's All This About?
Here's a little extract from the Kickstarter description:

In April 2019, Necrotic Gnome Kickstarted Old-School Essentials — a role-playing game of magic, monsters, and adventure. Following the incredible success of that Kickstarter, Exalted Funeral and Necrotic Gnome are joining forces to produce a massively expanded version of the game plus a set of brand new adventure scenarios!

Old-School Essentials Expanded
The base Old-School Essentials game is a faithful retelling of the 1981 Basic/Expert rules, beloved for their simplicity, clarity, and flexibility. Sometimes you want MORE though!
In answer to that call, we're now primed to produce a massively expanded version of the game — Old-School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy — adding reams of exciting content inspired by the ever-popular Advanced 1st Edition rules. All that delicious esoteric 1970s flavour you crave is here — assassins, poisons, drow, half-orcs, mimics, xorns, vorpal swords, ioun stones... even the dreaded tarrasque! More classes, more magic, more monsters, more options. All 100% compatible with the Basic/Expert rules and presented in the familiar Old-School Essentials style.
Just like previous Old-School Essentials products, Old-School Essentials: Advanced Fantasy will be produced at a deluxe level of quality — hardcover books with sewn bindings. These will be beautiful and seriously durable books! The new material will be printed in two different formats — slim, modular books and chunky, compiled tomes. Choose the format you prefer, or take the connoisseur's option and choose both!

Also previews of the new all in one book table of contents were given in a prior update

Players Book:
TOC_60bcc0fe-32e9-47a0-8b1e-bd55626c3197_1024x1024.png


GM Book
TOC_16b3b14a-c2cc-44df-a426-51116b68d749_1024x1024.png
 

Stormcrowfleet

Aeon & Star Interactive
Developer
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Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,062
Domain management isn't even a single page.

Is there an OSR game with fun, usable domain-level gameplay?
I like Kevin Crawford stuff, but I've seen criticism against it and I agree it's not for everyone. Latest version of ACKS is probably the best answer (I've never tried it, but I've had more than enough people tell me it's good).
 

Bara

Arcane
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Apr 2, 2018
Messages
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This thread remains a treasure trove for me every time you guys mention something I haven't heard of before and I look it up.

For ACKS I like how it has spells above sixth level as extremely expensive rituals. I could see a campaign done alone on gathering and competing with another domain to collect the necessary items to perform the ritual of Wish.

I also like how there is a ritual there that effects domain management with Harvest/Ruin in there on top of its pretty nice rules on Domains. Just wish there was more than one spell made in that regard but I suppose I could just create my own domain changing spells by steeling things from Age of Wonders.

Also, I can stop bitching about OSE book shipments now as they're finally headed out.



Even got my official PDF download finally.
 
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
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Apr 18, 2016
Messages
761
i have domain management in my tabletop rpg

i do not wish to share it though, its very boardgamey and i designed it to be a simple thing.
 

Morblot

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Stormcrowfleet

Aeon & Star Interactive
Developer
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Messages
1,062
domain-level gameplay
Kevin Crawford

Speaking of him, An Echo, Resounding has "tools for domain management". Don't know if it's good, but at least the reviewers seem to think so.

The upcoming Worlds Without Number seems to have a faction system and a shitload of stuff for world creation. Probably a must-buy once again when the Kickstarter arrives.
Yes I was speaking specifically of AER, but I didn't remember the name when I posted so I just wrote his name instead. It's literally the only non TSR book I bought because I was impressed. It's not without flaw and like everything else in the OSR you need to tweek it a bit to your liking, but it has a solid foundation. That's a bit the reason why, even if I respect ACKS, I don't use their system for domain: it's such a huge and complete monster that I don't think it's possible to tweek it without breaking it. It's "too" balanced in a way. For plug and play I heard it's the best (and it does look like it from reading). Spreadsheet intensive, but people made the spreadsheet and shared them online so it's not a big deal I'd say.
 

Casual Hero

Prophet
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489
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OSE keeps domain management purposefully short, because that is how the B/X books had it. There is still plenty of information for you to work with though. At that point in the game I'm glad the rules are kept quick and light. Domain management could easily get too bogged down with unnecessary tables and rules, but OSE leaves most of that to the DM, which I think is a good thing.

If you ordered the books from Exalted Funeral those have shipped this week, so hopefully I'll get my copy soon...
 
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
761
OSE keeps domain management purposefully short, because that is how the B/X books had it. There is still plenty of information for you to work with though. At that point in the game I'm glad the rules are kept quick and light. Domain management could easily get too bogged down with unnecessary tables and rules, but OSE leaves most of that to the DM, which I think is a good thing.

If you ordered the books from Exalted Funeral those have shipped this week, so hopefully I'll get my copy soon...

To be fair theres a few grogs that actually played with gary who posted their stories online and basically nobody used domain rules and generally thought they were boring and stupid, so.
 
Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
761
im so confused, I bought into that Kickstarter for the original OSE boxed set and it came with advanced fantasty
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
The kick starter is basically adding on two new books Advance Fantasy Monsters & Advance Fantasy Treasures. Along with a new box set containing all the books or a set of two Tomes containing all the rules new and old.

It's been stated that you can just pick up the two books separately if you just want to finish your set and not rebuy anything. Unless you already bought the tome version an you want a new tome set.
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
Just .4% of all games on roll 20 but


Also when the Kickstart launchs
 

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