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Interview Paradox admit Tyranny sold below expectations, DLC still in the works

Archibald

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
7,869
If we want an RPG where you can play an evil character and revel in it, what you need is a proper story and setting for it. Make me hate the people of your game and I'll love choosing to blow up the kingdom. Bloodlines comes very close to this proposal, it just lacks a suitably 'evil' ending to it. By the end I felt used and discarded by every character and faction in the city. Arguably, VV a 'nice' vampire but she only shows that to certain characters (Toreadors, most certainly). To anybody else she's just trying to seduce you into dirtying your hands for her, which is the very best you can expect from those wretched nights. I chose the Lone Wolf ending and just loved flipping everyone off. If there was a Sabbath ending that allowed me to kill even more of LA's vampires, I'd seriously consider it.

I agree with this and I think it perfectly shows why you can't really make crpg with "evil won, do evil things" premise. You need to sink in some hours into the game till you develop some negative feelings towards the world and characters that inhabit it. Then you give option of doing "evil" things and player will genuinely consider doing them. But if you put "evil" things before player has gotten enough time to familiarize himself with the world then he won't really care for them.
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
6,207
Location
The island of misfit mascots
There may have been some conveyance issues but I never saw Caesar's Legion as being irredeemably evil or wrong. Josh made them more like the Ancient Romans than people give him credit for, but without any sympathy or romance for their finer accomplishments.

Remember that the Ancient Romans dipped meek Christians in tar and set them on fire on crosses and torture stakes for the purposes of public entertainment. The 'decimation' practice where people have to execute their compatriots as a punishment for failure is also an accurate representation of what the Ancient Romans were like.

Romans (like most ancient humans, or currently living humans for that matter) were a pretty sinister bunch, a draconian and militaristic culture shaped by being outcasts and foreigners in a Latin dominated land that was constantly attempting to destroy them -- a similar relationship between the Dorians/Spartans and the other Greeks. However, they channeled their savage impulses into creating the durable and prosperous civilization modern people still admire.

Caesar's Legion is represented as being much the same thing. Ancient Romans became what they were for the same reason the Spartans or the Aztecs became what they were, they were trying to survive in the hard circumstances of the ancient world. Caesar's Legion are trying to survive in the similarly hard circumstances of the post-apocalyptic world.

Remember, not everyone in the Fallout universe has a reliable, unpolluted source of potable water. Goodsprings is in the minority.

Only problem I had with Ceasar's Legion was that it was supposed to be invented by a guy with expertise re ancient history and ancient Rome, not just a random "here's where the maps have the largest boundaries, so that's obviously when Rome was doing great despite being well into economic and scientific decline".

Rome expanded after the switch to Empire (and even though Octavius put that into play, I'd rate 'true empire' as a 1-2 emperors later - the point where things shifted from 'Emperor who sidesteps the senate due to his influence and army" to "Senate, what's the senate? Oh, you mean that retirement pension program for the rich families where they sit around and roleplay at being politicians?") because it had to. Its economy was collapsing and scientific/engineering improvements had dried up. There was no mystery about it - as a Republic, a smart young go-getter could rise a very long way on the back of pretty much any useful skill there was - science, military, business prowess, bureaucratic management skills. Roman Republicanism gave much of the same incentives as the boom-era of mid-20th century capitalism.

Once they became an empire, those incentives reversed hard. There's fewer and fewer routes for someone 'outside the club' to advance on merit, and so if you're the local leader and a citizen comes seeking funding for his great new trade enterprise, you'd better tax it into oblivion or straight up kill the fucker. Even benevolent governors did that. One of the most famous examples amongst the historians of the time was that of a guy who invented a massively more efficient plough, together with a Henry Ford-style plan for a production line, allowing massive increase in food production in lower cost. The local governor was a genuinely benevolent fellow who cared about the well-being of his people....and so he did the sensible thing (under the Empire economy) and executed the guy so that he didn't put half the town out of work.

What does any 'great empire' do when their internal economy goes to shit? Well they don't just throw their hands up and go 'oh well, I mean we've got this awesome army, pity we can't do anything with it'. They transform into an 'expand and plunder' economy.

That in turn has 2 effects that sped up the decline, even as Roman territory reached its height:

1. It forced them to switch from a society of local patrons, (with communities who cared about their local marketplace and where the town rich guy donates enough money to the chapel and welfare programs to keep things running, because he lives there and has pride in the town) to a military society where the 'power players' are now moving constantly between regions on military patrol, with no particular loyalty to any one town. Now, in fairness, the East Roman Empire found a way to make that work for another 800 years (and back then, everyone just called them 'the Roman Empire' - the notion that the Roman Empire had 'fallen' in 600AD would get you laughed at. It just moved to Constantinople - it even had a couple of brief eras where it matched the old Empire for territory).

2. The price of being a 'civilisation' is that your people aren't savages, and they won't go all 'salt the earth' unless faced with an existential threat like Carthage that just won't go away. Plus if you want to make $$$ as a 'conquer and plunder' economy, you don't want to genocide the people you conquer, because you need them to keep working and pay you taxes. So when people talk about the Roman 'idiocy' of letting all these Barbarians into the empire - it's not like they had any choice. They'd been disguising their internal economic collapse by conquering and taxing, and that meant that their borders contained increasing numbers of people from cultures further and further away.


Ok, that's all nerdy crap that I don't expect to see in a game. But if you want me take Ceasar seriously, at least make him someone who doesn't know much about Roman history, has fucked it up by going the Empire model instead of the Roman Republic, but is clever and his inner circle is open to quietly learning from their mistakes. Give the player 2 Legion endings - one being the 'evil' ending, and the other being a 'Roman Republic' ending where they're just as brutal, but are showing signs of maybe developing into a civilisation that suits the times.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,353
All that is very true, Azrael, re. the actual Rome - but you can clearly see that Caesar wouldn't have read Gibbon et al and thought 'I'm going to recreate the Roman Empire'? Maybe I'm giving him/Josh too much credit. Either Caesar is a stupid cargo-cultist, just hoping to recreate the effects of Rome by dressing up like Rome, or Caesar is clever enough to understand that he's not exactly going to be able to reproduce the conditions of Rome's rise out of a bunch of post-apocalyptic tribals. Either way, the result is - I think he was an opportunist and a pragmatist above all, not some crazy Renaissance re-enactor. I think he looked at the tribals he was sent out to have a look at, and thought about what's the best they can be and what's the most he can get out of this, and went to work. I don't think Caesar himself expects that this is the foundation of a thousand-year empire (he doesn't even have any plan of succession, despite his bodily ailments). I think he was just looking to use and abuse aspects of the Roman empire in a pastiche fashion, than expecting to recreate what made Rome great - and so accusing him/Josh of being inaccurate is sort of like saying Madonna's Cleopatra set props are too gaudy.

Again, maybe I'm just giving the game too much credit, but that's always been my sense as I played. This is actually a group that is much closer to a typical hardass brutal post-apocalyptic iron fist charismatic despotism on a roll, not some kind of Rome v2, but Caesar found it an extremely convenient mechanism to unite the various squabbling tribes and to send a message of fear to his enemies.
 

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