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PART TWO - MMOPRG input - Endgame

Human Shield

Augur
Joined
Sep 7, 2003
Messages
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Location
VA, USA
DarkSign said:
Human Shield said:
My idea was a constantly advancing world until the people get tech to leave the planet then the server world resets and changes things to make it interesting. But you can have capture-the-flag or more shitty respawning dungeons.

Lets talk about this for a second. Now I had entertained the idea of really going RTS by having each guild required to start at the bottom of a tech tree...slowly advancing forward.

Of course some guilds would advance faster and therefore be able to have better weapons, but wouldnt this make the playing field unequal? wouldnt it highlight the difference between noobs and vets?

Not if:

1. Energy/Ammo requires are high to use latest tech.
2. Start expensive to use for first group, more research makes it cheaper and easier.
3. Other groups can salvage and/or capture new tech for research boost.
4. Seeing new tech gives research boost.

And give incentives for groups to trade technology. Balance the resource system so that rushing tech leaves other weak-points.

EDIT: And btw
a) capture the flag can be fun
b) my respawning dungeons wont be shitty
c) ive already said we will have server resets
d) ive been toying with the idea of having the cause of the apoc be (its a secret) that changes the way people look at the game. of course you dont want to change the game on people who liked it the way it was.

a) Not in an MMORPG where it doesn't matter in the end.
b) All respawning dungeons are shitty waste of time, grind-machines.
c) That is good but until they take place years apart and have a final ending, grinding for skill points is wasted.
d) So they can fight Supermonster A instead of Supermonster B?
 

Avé

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
468
a) Not in an MMORPG where it doesn't matter in the end.
b) All respawning dungeons are shitty waste of time, grind-machines.
c) That is good but until they take place years apart and have a final ending, grinding for skill points is wasted.
d) So they can fight Supermonster A instead of Supermonster B?
A) It never matters, the fun is in the fighting, not the achieving some mind numbingly massive goal of total and utter domination in a mmorpg.

People can play thousands of similar goal oriented "rounds" in games like CS, and still enjoy an almost exact replica, because it's the people that make it enjoyable.

B) PVE can be enjoyable, but I dont think you've played too many mmo's a lot, so I'm not surpised you dont know this.

C) Levelling doesnt automatically equal grinding.

D) Variety makes a difference.

Honestly, your idea's are different enough to be worth reading, but your forced cynicism at the expense of reality gets rather tiring.
 

DarkSign

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1. Energy/Ammo requires are high to use latest tech.
2. Start expensive to use for first group, more research makes it cheaper and easier.
3. Other groups can salvage and/or capture new tech for research boost.
4. Seeing new tech gives research boost.

HEY!!! Im liking this. Ave is right about the cynicism, but this might be a great kernel of info.

So you advance weaponry by research and research comes in the form of exploration?
Once one group has advanced their research to a certain level, the other groups need merely see that tech to advance theirs as well (Just trying to rephrase it to get it straight)?

A few questions:
1. wont tech spread pretty fast?
2. can it be spread by selling it to someone? If he's in a guild what would he do to update the guild as whole?

Ultimately if it could be balanced right, it would reward explorers and guilds for putting in time, but not so much that it makes noobs think "geeze, I have to do what to get a decent weapon?"

Not sure if its going in until after a lot more discussion, but its on the drawing board.
Thoughts?
 

Avé

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
468
DarkSign said:
So you advance weaponry by research and research comes in the form of exploration?
Once one group has advanced their research to a certain level, the other groups need merely see that tech to advance theirs as well (Just trying to rephrase it to get it straight)?

A few questions:
1. wont tech spread pretty fast?
2. can it be spread by selling it to someone? If he's in a guild what would he do to update the guild as whole?
What I would do is, if you had automatic production of weapons & items done right, you _ALWAYS_ drop something of value.

Be it the newest pulse laser rifle, or thermal googles.

Now, anyone who picked these up would be able to use them, but they wouldnt be able to produce ammo/battery packs/repair them without the tech

Each time a group/township/clan pioneered a new technology, the tech would be tagged with their name, for example "Darksign Energy Barrel Mk II"

What other townships/groups can do is attempt to reverse engineer an item, with each item is made up of a composite of several parts, reverse engineering can gain you the knowledge of one of those parts, but only a small percentage of the time.

Now, there reverse engineered version wouldnt be as good as the original to start off with, and would be tagged with their name(say "RPGCodex Energy Barrel Mk II").

If people gained one of these, and attempted to reverse engineer it, they would have even less of a chance then the original (DarkSign's), and if they suceeded it would be even more inferior.

Reverse engineering would require several things: A lab attached to your town/base, someone with the skills to attempt it, time & resources.

Of course, the only way to gain new tech wouldnt just be researching it, but by very special once off-locations for gaining an item of research, perhaps some GM events.


Confusing, eh? :D
 

Human Shield

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Look at the HL mod Science and Industry for tech competition.

Avè said:
A) It never matters, the fun is in the fighting, not the achieving some mind numbingly massive goal of total and utter domination in a mmorpg.

People can play thousands of similar goal oriented "rounds" in games like CS, and still enjoy an almost exact replica, because it's the people that make it enjoyable.

I won't pay a monthly fee for CS. I want to be able to meaningfully impact the world not sit and watch cycles.

B) PVE can be enjoyable, but I dont think you've played too many mmo's a lot, so I'm not surpised you dont know this.

C) Levelling doesnt automatically equal grinding.

D) Variety makes a difference.

Honestly, your idea's are different enough to be worth reading, but your forced cynicism at the expense of reality gets rather tiring.

b) PVE destroys the economy and turns it into a grind-machine.

c) If the way to level is maximized by grinding then that is what people will do, grinding gives benefits when you have constantly leveling with respawning monsters. It is the easiest way to win, god-forbid you have players interact with each other.

d) Not when the gameplay is the same.

What expense of reality? MMORPGs have many design problems and this game is repeating many of them and being glad about it.
 

Ortchel

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
830
This might have been covered before, but what will the setting be exactly? Will this be far-future post-nuke (a la Anarchy Online) or relatively modern? Will there be laser rifles and 'implants' or only current tech?

/Really hoping for the latter
 

DarkSign

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Ortchel said:
This might have been covered before, but what will the setting be exactly? Will this be far-future post-nuke (a la Anarchy Online) or relatively modern? Will there be laser rifles and 'implants' or only current tech?

/Really hoping for the latter

Would you settle for something in between ;)

The setting is a mix of harsh p-a wasteland (think current times and Mad Max) and corporate-controlled techno ciities (think Bladerunner). The two sides each think the other caused the apocalypse (which is the main mystery of the whole game)

characters can be pure humans, mutants or cyborgs. Mutant players can develop new mutations, cyborg players can input new implants, and humans exist on gear alone. Trust me, I realize that I will need to balance the game towards the humans. Mutants have more physical prowess, where as cyborgs have more intelligence (duh) and humans are the most rounded mix of both.

Human Shield I disagree that all PvE is a grind. If it were, there would be no single-player games. The key as you say yourself is making the gameplay varied.

Expounding on the basics of MMO quests...

a)kill / protect
b) collect & craft
c) collect & deliver
d) type key words

we will be integrating these styles into quests...

e) Splinter Cell type gameplay - with stealth action being the crux
f) UT2K4 gameplay - with assault maps that INTEGRATE RPG player skills, deathmatch, and CTF (not really a flag but an item worked into the quest) type activities
g) Puzzle gameplay - Myst, Tomb Raider, and Prince of Persia type gameplay (both physical and mental puzzles
h) mystery gamplay


and thats in addition to theextortion, gambling, hacking, driving, melee fighting and the rest of the game Ive outlined already. Hopefully this combination will give people a world they would want to just hang out in as much as possible.

What other types of gameplay (besides making a planet that progresses then moves on to another planet) do you suggest? Thats the point of this thread. Fire away.
 

Ortchel

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Messages
830
I might settle for something in-between, especially if us regulars get a free subscription :D

Expounding on the basics of MMO quests...

a)kill / protect
b) collect & craft
c) collect & deliver
d) type key words
You should consider adding SWG-esque recon missions, like I mentioned before. They've gotta be stupidly simple to implement. In SWG you just used a mission terminal and it gave you a (random) waypoint which you were required to travel to in order to collect payment. I loved these missions, some of my fondest memories of SWG are riding around on my Wasteland Cu Pa (an orange Tauntaun) to some remote location to make some quick and painless cash.
 

DarkSign

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Ortch...you not only will get free subscription, but alpha status (if you want that buggy stuff) beta...and the ability to play NPCs.

We will definitely have the recon missions. I lump that in with the collect & deliver since they have going from one point to another in common.

Did I discuss the in-game GM controls yet? Stop me if I have.
 

Ortchel

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
830
You might have, I tend to skim through the mechanics stuff though on these threads. I'm not ashamed to admit it goes over my head. What are the GM controls? Like in-game events and the like? They had them in SWG sometimes, once like 8000 Tuskens attacked Mos Eisley. Needless to say, it was fucking awesome.

What kind of graphics engine are you guys going to be using, I know you're a self-described 'graphics whore'. Does it meet your standards?
 

Fez

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Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
Feel free to wax lyrical about your game DarkSign, that's what we are reading this for, plus the more you say, the more we will wade in to argue about points.

Will you have VIPs under the control of paid/volunteer players/GMs?

Will you meddle in the politics actively to spice it up?
 
Self-Ejected

dojoteef

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 26, 2004
Messages
970
Well, I'm still unsure what the Endgame actually is. Does it mean once you've reached the maximum level or something? Anyway, from discussions of MMOG that I've seen there are a few sore spots for people, and I think I have a few suggestions.

  • Character customization:
    • Why not have people be able to import their own skins, models, etc?
    • Maybe their could be a sort of market for people to make skins, models, etc for players?
  • Noobs versus veterans
    • How about having different servers for people depending on the average amount of time they are willing to play the game. People that want to play more often would join the addicts' servers and those casual gamers could be on the noob servers.
    • In order to make things fair, put some sort of mechanism in place that if someone is playing the game too much on a noob server, they are told to join a veterans' server. If they don't comply, simply move them.
  • Levels and treadmilling...Is it possible to have several options for character development something along the lines of:
    • First option is to fully define the character at character creation. This sounds drastic, but there are ways to balance it. You could for example make restrictions on the types of characters that you allow to do this with and it might only be allowed on casual gamers' servers.
    • Next option is to have the traditional leveling of characters.
    • Third start a family and have kids. Then use the kids as a pool for new characters.
  • Cliched gameplay styles:
    • Enough with the over emphasis on killing. It's all that seems to be out there.
    • Why not have more variety, that people might actually want to play. For example, in your game it seems there are plenty of such opportunities such as:
      • Archaeologists for discovering what happened
      • Scientists for advancing technology
      • Politicians for organizing their people and negotiating between nations
      • Merchants that buy and sell goods
      • Machinists that create items and sell to traders
      • etc
    • You can use these sorts of professions to great use. For example for the machinists, they could create a company, buy/build a factory, then hire NPCs to work for them. They could pay other players that are con artists or that are into corporate espionage to steal trade secrets from the competition. You could have players that are mercs/guards to guard your factory or resources. Then you could have it so the player needs to manage the factory sort of like a mini tychoon like game. Come up with similiar ideas for each profession that would grab the attention of different types of gamers. With this example you've captured the attention of those into sneaking type games, people into tychoon management type games, people that enjoy action games, etc. Essentially have something for everyone.
    • Add more of an RTS type feeling to the game, with the resources that each nation wants and have the ability for people to build structures that have similar properties to those you would build in a strategy game. Essentially allow the world to be more dynamic with the ability to build and destroy structures.
    • make people much more associated with their country, clan, or whatever it is that these games have. Make it so that it's sort of a race between different nations to be good at something.

I've forgotten some of the other ideas I have. When I think of more I'll tell you.
 

Ortchel

Liturgist
Joined
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Messages
830
Some good ideas there, dojo.

Why not have more variety, that people might actually want to play. For example, in your game it seems there are plenty of such opportunities such as:

* Archaeologists for discovering what happened
* Scientists for advancing technology
* Politicians for organizing their people and negotiating between nations
* Merchants that buy and sell goods
* Machinists that create items and sell to traders
Some of this has been done in other MMOs. For example, in Star Wars Galaxies, if you wanted, you could spend all of your time setting up and managing your mining equipment, then taking the raw materials to your factories where you can produce goods and then finally sell them in your own shop. Also, you could take the Politician profession which enables you to make player cities from which you can manage the buildings you run and alter taxes, etc. At certain population levels you're able to take 'perks' like increased material quality (for mining) in the areas around your city, or you're able to place a shuttleport and so on.

I'd like to see other non-violent options in this and other future MMOs, especially for self-described 'explorers', such as myself. Maybe a cartography skill, which would allow you to go out and map current creature spawns (assuming they move, as they do in SWG), raw material levels, (which would assist crafters and take a lot of the micromanagement out of tediously surveying for materials everytime they want to make something), perhaps other variables in the game world as well. I don't know what you've got in mind exactly, maybe radiation levels? Then the 'cartographer' could sell this map to those interested in it. Of course to make this useful to anyone, the information must otherwise be impossible for anyone else to collect.

Another thing that I'd like to see is pets that actually do something. In SWG I took the Creature Handler profession, and after grinding for days and days I soon found that pets just don't do anything except accept attack orders. Maybe you could alter your pets by how you treated them (a la Black & White). If you train it constantly, it could become emotionally unpredictable and less likely to follow your commands accurately, thus discouraging grinding. If you don't train it enough it could become lazy and not accept commands at all, etc. Maybe you could teach them 'tricks' that would actually be of use to the player, such as automatically looting corpses, or gaining a 'sphere of influence' around creatures of it's own species, which could serve as a temporary militia of a sort.

Perhaps you could even 'breed' creatures and sell them to players. I'd also like to see variety among species, even if it's just in color. Red Radscorpions could be the most common variety and of average worth, but yellow ones could be far rarer, faster and thus, more valuable to the handler.
 

Balor

Arcane
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Dec 29, 2004
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Russia
DM interface? I guess he means the one that allows hired people to control NPCs, set their behavior, (to compensate for AI stupidity) and, perhaps, group leaders - party members that I proposed in the previous thread.
What I don't understand is why he adressed you, tho. *scratches head*
*Edit* Oh, misread. Well, you didn't. So, you had this idea before I proposed it? Oh well, *Everything is stolen before us* (said marauder, examining the looted corpses) :).
Btw, DarkSign, did you read my ideas about new quest types in the previous "MMORG needs your input" thread? I didn't see you reply on this one.
Does it mean that you are just uninterested? It's ok if so, I just want to hear your oppinion (not to much to ask, heh?).
 

Balor

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I’ll take some time commenting other ideas and adding some new ones:
How about having different servers for people depending on the average amount of time they are willing to play the game. People that want to play more often would join the addicts' servers and those casual gamers could be on the noob servers.
In order to make things fair, put some sort of mechanism in place that if someone is playing the game too much on a noob server, they are told to join a veterans' server. If they don't comply, simply move them.
Not bad, provided that the reversed statement is not true. After all, if you, for RL reasons, have to pause your gaming for a while and get booted to n00b server, it’s no fun at all... and endless grind to keep up to ‘veteran’ standart is no fun too, I guess. Perhaps I just don’t like the company of abovementioned casual gamers? :)
First option is to fully define the character at character creation. This sounds drastic, but there are ways to balance it. You could for example make restrictions on the types of characters that you allow to do this with and it might only be allowed on casual gamers' servers.
Yea, that’s drastic indeed. And sets high requirement for things you can do with your stats maxed...
Btw! Why not make this possible for people who get some kind of ‘exclusive’ game bundle? After all, those casual gamers who don’t have much time on games because they are working usually have enough money - and, pretty much as noted, usually resort to buying the characters anyway.
“If you cannot stop it - join it!” :).
Of course, developing your char is a fun in itself, but if you don’t like it, but still want to have fun - why not? It’s a game, after all. The main thing is not to offend ‘usual people’ with that offer, cause some noobs with thick wallet getting at once what you have done for a few month... but this will happen anyway, like I said. And idea on ‘casual gamers server’ does sound good in that context.

Anyway, how about alternate solution I’ve proposed before, but it seems to be somehow neglected:
VR. I mean, full-scale VR, not just some ping-pong, but with different rules (but same engine).
I mean, that will allow players to experience what they will get by grinding without grinding - like high-level (don’t like levels, but it’s a very widespread term) PK, DM-interface (RTS-style) warfare, experience (and therefore, get ready to) all kinds of available quests, Tycoon - like economy simulator...
All this will look absolutely similar to ‘real’ world, but with no penalties for dying, instant skills, etc, etc.
So, the game can be made really realistic, harsh and challenging... like RL... but still be friendly to newbies and casuals, cause they’ll be able to experience it all in VR, and either get ready for it, or just simply live there, if they don’t feel like risking and/or grinding.
Of course, like I mentioned before, it will still be inferior to real status gained by training your character... but will provide a respite from the grinding, and allow casuals and crafting-oriented (or other pacifist types) to hop into action at once, w/o any risk of dying and loosing experience (only ingame money, perhaps) and having to grind for combat skills.
Also competition can be held, with prizes and stuff.
Btw, some games can be even in different setting - like fantasy one, or space simulator (think Jump to Lightspeed), etc - (can be brought in expansions by requests of players).
Of cource, it will not affect 'explorer' types, but they don't need grind to do so (usually, at least, or to much lesser degree), and the danger is part of the fun.
Btw, the reverse can be true.
You can try and set difficulty to "Insane" and try and survive massive assault by cyborgs all alone, attempt to capture/defend a city while massively outnumbered, etc - I mean such things that do not happen every day, but you want to experience them - after all, difficulty requirements are different for different people.
If you think that this ideas suck, you can at least say why so?
 

Avé

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
468
Human Shield said:
I won't pay a monthly fee for CS. I want to be able to meaningfully impact the world not sit and watch cycles.
Good for you, but you're in the vast, vast, VAST minority.

b) PVE destroys the economy
Only if the game is designed poorly
and turns it into a grind-machine.
Bullshit, honestly, have you played ANY mmo's?

You keep going on about grinding, without even seeming to understand what it is.

c) If the way to level is maximized by grinding then that is what people will do, grinding gives benefits when you have constantly leveling with respawning monsters.
Who said maximised?
PVE can be an enjoyable break from PVP, an alternative to crafting, or a means to an end.

It is the easiest way to win, god-forbid you have players interact with each other.
Presumptuous.

d) Not when the gameplay is the same.
Again, clear lack of experience of playing MMOG's

Keep coming up with idea's, but do try to stop blathering on about practical experiences you obviously do not have.

What expense of reality? MMORPGs have many design problems and this game is repeating many of them and being glad about it.
According to you:
A) Being able to gain levels off PVE is grinding, no matter how it's balanced or checked with other forms of advancement.

B) Only PVP can be enjoyable

C) PVP can only be enjoyable if its for a long reaching goal

D) A Game with PVE will automatically have a terrible economy.

E) Grinding is ONLY the act of advancing off PVE.

Get real please, you make comments on design problems, and yet your comments consist solely of empty catchphrases like "grinding", without actually bothering to try reason why these are bad.
 

DarkSign

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Location
Shepardizing caselaw with the F5 button.
Alright! Now THIS is what Im talking about! Good ideas guys.

First of all Balor...
I do like your idea of the VR game inside the game. If I understand you it wont look any different but it will show lowers (and highers if they want) what the experience of the higher levels is like? I kind of compare this to the X-Men's Danger Room training facility. This could definitely be incorporated...and infact could be a great way to buy the training of skills. Perhaps if you paid money, you could train your skills faster, but the cost would be high.

Great idea. Ill put that on the drawingboard.

Dojo...nice post.

The problem with people importing their own skins and models is two fold.
a) it would have to be distributed to everyone who plays the game (hard as hell...even if you did loaded it as you came upon them...that would slow things down immensely
b) some asshat is going to put a vagina where his face should be and draw a penis coming out of his ear. Terrible terrible.

Putting these into a que for submission would bog things down unless you just happened to have a huge volunteer community that you could trust and that wouldnt mind doing it non-stop.

>>>I like the idea of segrating servers based on playtime. This could only really be suggested...because separating someone from their friends and guild would be a horrible experience. However I think that people would do a great job of segregating themselves since people tend to eschew the opposite of their own playstyle.

>>>doing all character development at creation. You know I said this is exactly what should be done in shadowbane to promote PvP and reduce grind. Im actually thinking of having 1 server like this just to test it out. The other side is...that if the play experience is fun then leveling up skills shouldnt be a chore....and also it allows you another tool in creating content...that is higher lvl stuff based on skills. But im definitely going to make at least 1 server like this. Hopefully people wont all flood that server instead of the regular ones.

>>>Family + Kids for a bloodline. Not sure if you could make raising a family into fun gameplay. I suppose it could be like leveling 2 characters an old and young one at the same time...would have to explore exactly what that would entail...anyone got any idea??

Obviously I want to enhance non-pvp gameplay. Archaelogists are questors of a different sort. To make that into a full class (although we dont have classes in this game) could you help me come up with a broad range of skills they might employ? That are both fun and interactive with the game world and have bearing on the roleplay of that type of character?

Politicans and merchants are in the game and will definitely be viable routes without fighting. altough you may need to hire or call friends to help you defend your outpost. I like the idea of having them pay people to steal better plans for better tech. As it stands now tech is upgraded merely with time and money...but now you are suggesting I add exposure to information....I like that. keep that coming.

Scientists as well also are in the game although they need broadening. Again making it fun gameplay has to be paramount. Interactive fun gameplay with a set of skills. Let me hear your ideas. Right now there are scientists...but they merely diagnose/create viruses...and cure/design drugs.

(Ive actually set up a nice little gui...that based on ingredient combinations a little picture of a molecule (for drugs) or a virus (for...uhm viruses (diseases lol)) will change people stats for limited periods of time in both good and bad ways. The drugs of course will have addictive effects which can be treated. So imagine making a new drug...getting people hooked for money....or giving it for free to enemy players (with a neutral character) and getting them hooked and then yanking it back. The hook of the drugs is really even not just digital its on the real player. I want x,y,x drug that ups my stats for battle...so ill just take it this one time....muaahhaaahhahhaa.

>>>Pets: I definitely like your ideas Ortch on having them have actual behavior based on the way they are treated. WoW does this a little bit...but not enough agreed. Can we come up with a list of skills besides battle skills that a pet could realistically do that would add value?

>>>Cartography: Another good idea. The Dark and Light MMO is going to do something like this. They were asked...wont the maps just be on the web at some point? Answer:Yes but seeing them and deriving the in-game benefit of their use (due to unmentioned benefits for using them ) will be entirely different.

>>>>Strategy game buiding types: This was the plan from the start. Your guild-owned city will have buildings that you can put down to increase various things like a med tent for higher healing rate in battles close to town...a comm station for higher encrypted communications (damn Ihavent even explained that part yet...lol)...sniper towers for increased accuracy...Officers HQ for increased skill leveling rate. Each of these will have a resource cost that comes due each week. Thus making sure that you have to go get and defend your resource mines in PvP.

Wow. lots of great ideas. Keep em coming. Youll noticed Ive asked some questions myself in this thread...keep helping me by answering them with your ideas and critigues.

Damn I hate going to work. I cant wait till I go back to this game design thing full-time.
 

Human Shield

Augur
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Sep 7, 2003
Messages
2,027
Location
VA, USA
DarkSign said:
Human Shield I disagree that all PvE is a grind. If it were, there would be no single-player games. The key as you say yourself is making the gameplay varied.

No, in single-player games killing stuff has impact and the growth of your character is rational within a confined gameworld. After killing a cave the quest is done and you move on, in MMORPGs there are 1,000 people repeating the same damn thing. Putting a single-player advancement system into an MMORPG is stupid.

And varied missions will only have the players work to choose the fastest one and rush thru them as fast as possible.

Avè said:
Human Shield said:
I won't pay a monthly fee for CS. I want to be able to meaningfully impact the world not sit and watch cycles.
Good for you, but you're in the vast, vast, VAST minority.

So there are more people playing MMORPGs then all other free multiplayer games? If anything I am the majority of people that don't want to pay to waste time.

People that like good RPGs are in the minority too.

b) PVE destroys the economy
Only if the game is designed poorly

If the respawning monsters give gold or drop stuff that is sold at a static price to merchants it creates unlimited inflation.

You keep going on about grinding, without even seeming to understand what it is.

I define it as doing the same non-player-interaction thing over and over to make progress. And basing the game around that progress.

Who said maximised?
PVE can be an enjoyable break from PVP, an alternative to crafting, or a means to an end.

So constantly rushing through PVE content won't give you the greatest benefit with character skills?

Again, clear lack of experience of playing MMOG's

Keep coming up with idea's, but do try to stop blathering on about practical experiences you obviously do not have.

MMOGs suck, I try beta tests and trials and it is always wandering around and fighting monsters for the next level in something.

According to you:
A) Being able to gain levels off PVE is grinding, no matter how it's balanced or checked with other forms of advancement.

It has always been the easiest and most time-effective.

B) Only PVP can be enjoyable

No, player interaction is better then fighting through infinite monsters.

C) PVP can only be enjoyable if its for a long reaching goal

It should have an effect, having players respawn with all their stuff and having it not matter at all is useless.

D) A Game with PVE will automatically have a terrible economy.

If it destroys scarcity yes.

Get real please, you make comments on design problems, and yet your comments consist solely of empty catchphrases like "grinding", without actually bothering to try reason why these are bad.

If a player has to start a new character and repeat the same steps for weeks to get back to a "special" place, the game is a grind machine and a waste of time.

Have all players start being able to effect things.
 

Avé

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
468
Human Shield said:
MMOGs suck, I try beta tests and trials and it is always wandering around and fighting monsters for the next level in something.
Thank you, my point is proved.

All your latest responses showed that you made the comments, not based on what I or anyone else wrote, but based on your own presumptions of what we meant.
 

Balor

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
5,186
Location
Russia
Hmm, remembered that in part one you asked me about injury system.
Well, here we go:
When applied, each injury should be complemented with description like area, damage type, heaviness... E.g. (rather morbid... Oh well, it’s injuries we talking about here...) :
Head: a big bruise on a forehead - minor.
a slash across cheek - light (untreated)
Overall local injury condition – light, minor pain (constant), mild concussion, minor blood loss.

Left Hand: fractured bone - very heavy (untreated, bleeding)
Overall local injury condition – very heavy, paralyzing pain (constant), light blood loss, limb unusable.

Chest: broken ribs (2) - medium (just begun to heal, disturbed)
large burn - medium (thermal, just begun to heal, disturbed)
Overall local injury condition – medium-heavy, slightly impaired breathing, bearable pain(constant).

Midsection: Injured liver - heavy (internal, bleeding).
Overall local injury condition – heavy, light bleeding, almost unbearable pain (constant).

Right leg: Deep slash - Medium (untreated, bleeding)
Overall local injury condition – medium, bearable pain (constant), almost unbearable pain (when moving), severely impaired movement.

______
Global injury condition – Critical, immobile, heavy blood loss, unconscious.

Pain levels should severely degrade your skills. You may die from pain shock if you are flimsy.
Same goes to bloodloss.
Each injury will have to be treated and healed separately.
Flesh wounds will be fastest to heal "natuarally". (After all, in the future there BOUND to be some med nanites in human body. Otherwise, you'll simply get screwed by nano-viruses.) Broken bones and other crippling wounds will be VERY hard to heal w/o special treatment, like injection of special med. nanites, (think fallout stimpacks, only a more varied - different types for different injuries) surgical operation, (robodocs should be a nice substitution for town healers) etc.
Now, how to protect your precious hide:
Against bullets:
Main:
Inertial dampener - slows everything moving at too high speed down. Think Dune. Not as severe, I guess. Only the most rare and expensive should allow you to be almost completely immune to bullets.
Require energy to work, and extra energy to take impacts.
Will not protect from close combat, and will offer rather limited protection from arrows and subsonic rounds and ineffective against thrown projectiles, since their weight/speed is rather high. (E.g. - 5.56x45 ammo has 1000 m/s muzzle velocity, about 5 gramms weight. 9x39 VSS VAL ammo has 300 m/s muzzle velocity, and weights about 16 grams). Same goes to high-caliber ones.
Secondary: Good old body armor. From titan and kevlar to nanite-enhanced vests, extra tough and self-regenerating.
Against Energy Weapons:
Primary:
Energy-absorbing shields a-la Star Wars. Also tough to upkeep energy wise, consumes a certain amount of energy depending on tech level - like, lower tech will only stop low-power laser pistol shots, but will only weaken shots from heavy laser rifles.
Oh, yea, and all shields should emit energy signature that can be detected from afar... some, lighter and rarer, can be 'low-emission', for stealth types. It might be a good idea to make shield mutually exclusive - like, you can only have one shield active.
Secondary:
Reflective armor... which is, obvious, will not make you very good at stealth, and be rather ineffective against bullets/close combat. Some armor can combine both bullet/CC protection and laser protection, but will make it very heavy.
Against Close Combat (Melee):
Just armor. The heavier, the better. Simple enough.
I guess, such system will be both balanced, fun, player-friendly and realistic.
 

DarkSign

Erudite
Joined
Jul 24, 2004
Messages
3,910
Location
Shepardizing caselaw with the F5 button.
Thanks for the update Balor. Ill keep that under advisement and study that more.

@human shield:

Human Shield said:
No, in single-player games killing stuff has impact and the growth of your character is rational within a confined gameworld. After killing a cave the quest is done and you move on, in MMORPGs there are 1,000 people repeating the same damn thing. Putting a single-player advancement system into an MMORPG is stupid. [\quote]

At the most basic, SP and Multiplayer games must have the same basis. If you cant at least say that I dont know what else to tell you. Said another way, just because 1000 people are all playing Splinter Cell at the same time, that doesnt make Sam Fisher any more or less of a hero. SP player games have cannon-fodder just like multi-players do. Sure there is no "chosen one" in an MMO, but everyone who plays FO saves the Vault.

And varied missions will only have the players work to choose the fastest one and rush thru them as fast as possible. [\quote]

And that is their perogative. If they choose to have less fun to quicken the time they only cheat themselves. We will still strive to make fun gameplay for those that want to have fun.

So there are more people playing MMORPGs then all other free multiplayer games? If anything I am the majority of people that don't want to pay to waste time.

No dear you missed the point. The point is that you can play something thats repetitious and have fun at it. He was answering your point that circular gameplay was dumb and boring. Rounds of CS prove that. And there are 100000s of servers that prove that people like that.

If the respawning monsters give gold or drop stuff that is sold at a static price to merchants it creates unlimited inflation.

Not true if there are money draws out of the economy. Draws like paying for repairs, paying for cities, paying for items. Now the net worth of the world can go up as more items remain in the word, but thats a far cry from inflation. They key is managing the drops and the economy. Its not for sure that static (a word I see you hate) drops and spawns will ruin the econ.

I define it as doing the same non-player-interaction thing over and over to make progress. And basing the game around that progress.

Again, imagine if you inserted 1000 fun SP games where the MMO quests are. That means it wouldnt be a grind because while it may be repetitious, it wouldnt be fun.

MMOGs suck, I try beta tests and trials and it is always wandering around and fighting monsters for the next level in something.

Unfortunatley he's right. If you havent done an end-game EQ raid of 200 people or a 300 person ShadowBane seige you are missing a lot. Not enough that you cant have an opinion...i definitely like having you keep us honest, and interesting....but hes right that theres a lot more than beta.


It has always been the easiest and most time-effective.
I agree. But in our game it wont be a grind. At least the attempt is to change that.


No, player interaction is better then fighting through infinite monsters.
Agreed, though both have their place.

It should have an effect, having players respawn with all their stuff and having it not matter at all is useless.
Agreed again, though too much of burden can make it un-fun.

If it destroys scarcity yes.

Sure.

If a player has to start a new character and repeat the same steps for weeks to get back to a "special" place, the game is a grind machine and a waste of time.

Have all players start being able to effect things.

Agreed our game will start players with decent skills in most things that a normal pa person would be...i.e. gun skills. Adding to your skills will turn you into more of an expert...not bring you up to functionality.

As I said before...HS..keep the ideas coming. Keeps us honest.
 

DarkSign

Erudite
Joined
Jul 24, 2004
Messages
3,910
Location
Shepardizing caselaw with the F5 button.
Ok...some random thoughts.

First, I didnt explain about the GM/DM controls.

Balor was right. Its a way to have either vets or paid people play the NPCs in the game world. I was thinking of getting 2 sets of controls coded:
a) NPC acting. GMs could jump into any NPC, suspending their routine, and play them out as a PC plays their char.
b) RTS controls - so that one person could control a group of multiple mobs with more precision, attacking in a more realistic way and avoiding the pitfalls of AI.

I was also thinking of having someone that not only chronicles the story of the server, but really gets a pulse on whats happening in terms of the politics. This way when GM events happen or if we want to be more in-depth we can have it change based on what players are doing.

2) I was thinking... Dojo mentioned having players upload their own models and skins. We could definitely have people submit what they want and we could review it...and add it to the next patch. Imagine that after a year we might have a lot of great new content.

3) Pets...what to do what to do.
Pets would either a) attack/guard b) scavenge food/parts c) play games 4) flush out food. Im wondering what kind of actions we could give them to make them better.

I definitely like the breeding idea. You could give pets a list of stats:
species, colors, str, stam, int, skill sets, docility, fierceness, loyalty, damage, attack rate, # of generations (how many times it can reproduce)....

breeding would take 2 animalsand randomly combine the elements of both...and you could breed better and better one.

What other animals besides dogs and lizards can we use. Horse-scorpions? Bear-bats? Hmmm. And what other skills can we come up with?

>>>> Mini-Tychoon games. I was definitely reaching for this in early incarnations of the game. But how do we keep it intersting enough for people to use it? or want to paly it? What range of actions do you give a manufacturer?

>>>I LOVE THE IDEA of having tech/info that a spy can steal thats linked to development. It would have to be physically available to be stolen....can speed upgrading...or can set a guild backwards.

>>> Scientists and Anarchists? What skill sets can we give them?
 

Balor

Arcane
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
5,186
Location
Russia
"-On your T-shirt, Tommy, is written: "Big game is death". It's not true. Big game is life. Tell, what'll happen, if I'll enter you fucking VR, your fucking monster labyrinth?
- Professionals are not allowed, - hastily replied Tommy.
- Correct. And not because that I'll win it - it's too much there that I don't understand. But I'll ruin your game. I'll start to live there..."
Sergey Lukianenko
Imperators of Illusions.
Ok, this quote (self-translated, so if you think that it sucks - blame me) is supposed to serve as an intro to a rather philosophical post.
The question is, WHY in SP games players are annoyed by repeating quests, while in MMOGs they intentionally seek out the fastest/easiest, and run them to death?
That's because in SP (at least, for most) - the process that is interesting, and completing the game is a secondary goal, often postponed as far as possible - think Fallout.
But in MMOGs, where competitive element is added, the result is what interests most.
It's ironic, really - in SP, people are willing to live in a game, but MMOGs, that are often referred as VR and VL - people take a large chunk of gameplay as an impediment before REAL fun starts - high-level PK, for instance.
All the quests, killing, etc - no matter how interesting - are still an impediment.
However, there is a limit to how long you can play the 'most interesting' parts of the game (since it’s, still, a rather limited part) - and eventually you get bored and quit.
So, game developers can take 3 paths to make game interesting as long as possible:

  • 1. Make character advancement very long.
    2. Make game for High-level chars more interesting by providing quests, content, events aimed specifically at them (at the expense of neglecting newbies, of course).
    3. Make ALL part of the game equally interesting, and somehow divert players from concentrating on the 'endgame' part.
As you all know, most devs claim to take 3rd path, while actually stressing on 1st of 2nd.
I hope that in this case the more balanced solution will be found, and I'm trying to help this. Here my ideas to make the very process of the game more exciting (some were already mentioned before, but let me sum it up):

  • 1. Get rid of EXP. Completely. And of levels too. Only trainable skills and stats should matter (and I already proposed 2-tier skill advancement). Experience detracts players, breaks immersion and in effect, helps the grinding effect - cause players will seek out the fastest way to get exp, and will exploit it to rise all of their statistics. With trainable skills, especially the 2-tier system, (learn in theory from someone -> practice) it's much harder, even if the exploit is found.

    2. While with scientific and other skills like that, training by application is the most logical and rewarding way, for combat skills it’s not really. However, I’ve already proposed ‘combat experience’ skill (the only experience that has place in games) that gets increased ONLY in combat. (And preferably the more dangerous the situation, the faster, and vice versa - we don’t want players to get this skill up by dodging rabbit’s attacks? ;)) Also, combat skill training will be faster in actual combat (again, the more difficult the combat, the faster - training on unskilled, not life-threatening targets would be as rewarding as training on dummies). This will divert players from clicking poor dummies to death to more self-rewarding actual combat. And besides, ammo should be expensive enough to not to waste it on paper targets. (It’s PA, after all).

    3. Do not let players simply choose their quests - let quests seek out the player when opportunity arises. Think Space Rangers - IF there are a lot of pirates in the system, you’ll get a ‘Defend system’ quest. If some pirate shot down a lot of cargo ships - you’ll get a quest to kill him. Unfortunately, this system would require AI on the level of abovementioned Space Rangers or, heh, even STALKER - and we all know that it’s not as easy. But, a bit simplified, this system can be fun too - I’ve already proposed going Gearhead way - let quest-givers mail you with requests once quest opportunity will arise, IF you already stumbled on this quest and successfully completed it in the past... and did not ask to much for completing it, I guess. However, I do wish that you’ll implement a system like one of SR and STALKER - that’ll make the process of the game much more unpredictable and fun even without DMs.

    4. No ‘absolute’ valuables should drop from respawning monsters (i.e. money). There should be a limited number of currency in the world, or that’ll lead to inflation - I agree with Human Shield wholeheartedly. Same goes to other goods and monsters as well - if players will hunt one type of monster too much, it’s pelt, at first very valuable, will go down in price, and then poor moster will go extinct (will start to reproduce at significally decreased rate), therefore, lessening the effectiveness of such exploits. Same goes to respawning bandits - just take note of how much gold is in the ‘bandit’ sector. If it will decrease (players started hunting them down), respawn rate will also decrease, until money will be back into ‘bandit’ economy sector, (say, from such chain: bandit money-“kill em!”>player money-“buy stuff”>merchant money-“extortion”>bandit money) and they’ll start respawning again. That can be attained by tracking each commondity and moster/NPC type in existance, and setting prices and spawn/respawn rates accrodingly.
That was about making the very process of the game more fun and varied. I’ll elaborate on making players concentrate on process, not result later, after I’ll get from work.
 

DarkSign

Erudite
Joined
Jul 24, 2004
Messages
3,910
Location
Shepardizing caselaw with the F5 button.
This is from my favorite poet of all time,Yevgeny Yevtushenko.

I am like a train
rushing for many years now
between the city of Yes
and the city of No.
My nerves are strained
like wires
between the city of No
and the city of Yes.

Thats not the whole poem, but this isnt a poetry thread. Anna Ahkmatova comes in a close second for me, then Shakespeare.

Ok to your post.

1. No levels - We are doing that. Only skill progression with skill per use.
2. Scientific skills - to do this we need an entire range of scientific skills to be made, that are interesting, fun, and that fit the game world.
3. Letting the quests choose people - I agree with this too. I was thkinking instead of going to NPCs, what if NPCs got word to the player? For example, if you get your hacking skill up to 67% they might contact you to get you to help them crack a network they need to get into. Or if you have your drug design skill up to 95% a cult might contact you in order to help them make a drug with x,y,z effect. Definitely more immersive. Game choices should lead the player, not the other way around.
4. Inflation - spawns will drop certain items and money regularly, however once killed they will not show up in the same area to just be killed over and over. Additonally anything dropped will be sparse and the money-sinks of the game will draw the net-worth back out.

Cant wait for more discussion.
 

Fez

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
Hey DarkSign, about the NPC interaction and how quests could work - have you played Uplink at all? It had some nice ideas for faking a real world.
 

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