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PC Gamer Editorial - "less story is more immersive&quot

DalekFlay

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Hey all,

Newest issue of PC Gamer has a guest editorial by Paul Taylor, indie developer or "Frozen Synapse," in which he states "games short on story tend to be the most immersive." I thought I would gauge the reaction to this idea as it pertains to RPGs from the Codex.

Full article:

"Most people on this forlorn little planet are willing to accept that games, through interactivity, offer unique opportunities for immersion.

Immersion and narrative are often thought to be one and the same, but I believe achieving real immersion is really about every element of a game working in harmony; it's something that seems to be ebbing away from game development as feature lists bloat and franchises are built.

I've recently been playing one of the most immersive games ever made: Chris Roberts' original Wing Commander. It's often held up as a great example of storytelling, but there's quite a lot more going on than a simple space yarn.

Consider the opening: you crash and burn the training simulator and are asked to enter your name; immediately after this, you're transported to the bar on your space ship, the Tiger's Claw. Now, we've seen similar "home base" or hub-type structures in countless games since, but there's a certain elegance to this one: the simulator reminds you of the consequences that might befall you in a "real" mission, and the other characters in the bar will be at your side in combat. Your actions will have implications for your future.

Wing Commander's immersive strategy wasn't just a few gimmicks thrown together, either - everything was designed to keep the player within the world. The copy of the "ship's magazine" bundled in the box, the fact that the story adapts and even continues when you lose a mission (rather than forcing you to replay it until you win), the offhand comments made about the state of your ship when you arrive back at base - all this and more convinced you of your signifigance within the world. It's no wonder that developers Origin Systems' slogan was, "We Create Worlds."

I think there's a key lesson in Wing Commander for today's developers, and that had to do with focus. Modern action or roleplaying games tend to offer a the player a vast array options and opportunities to interact with the game world, but in doing so they often lack this all-important quality. In Mass Effect, for example, the player can do everything from micromanaging armor to negotiating with powerful leaders; Shepherd is kind of a one-person intervention.

In my opinion, creating a world relies not on a huge range of opportunities, but on the suspension of disbelief. This is often accomplished by limiting the actions available to the player. Wing Commander made me feel like the pilot of a space fighter by allowing me to perform only actions appropriate to that role.

How many strategy games have you doing things like managing a budget, building bases and figuring out your troop formations? In the desire to be feature-rich and let players do everything and anything that they could want, the actual role that is being played is completely diluted.

I believe this is why some games which are very short on story tend to be the most immersive: they create a defined focus for the player. This isn't intended to be a criticism of certain kinds of game design (I do love Mass Effect, despite not feeling particularly immersed when playing it); it's more a call to developers to start thinking about the players role specifically.

It's not always fun to be the center of attention; sometimes the real immersion happens when you're made to feel like a cog in a much larger machine."

DISCUSS.
 

DaveO

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A thousand times no! I don't see hordes of people flocking to play Wizard's Crown. It has a pretty minimal story, but tons of tactical combat.

Proof that developers for the most part don't have a clue, and you couldn't ever hope to give them one. :poop:
 
In My Safe Space
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I find story-light games like Fallout and ADOM more immersive than storyfag games, because storyfag games tend to be more limiting which feels more artificial which is less immersive.
 

Erzherzog

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It's strange to see a comment that's just straight up wrong, but here we are.

Hell, Men of War and Victoria 2 have both managed to catch me just as much as the other, one does have story based missions the other does not. Same level of immersion.

No, game quality is still the only meter to judge immersion on. His comments sound like a justification for when his next game sells bad. "Well we were trying to be experimental"

No go, he's wrong and painfully so.
 

Drakron

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Awor Szurkrarz said:
I find story-light games like Fallout and ADOM more immersive than storyfag games...

Well /jp convinced me to try Ar Tonelico 2 that is story driven and fuck, THAT ended up being a rollercoster timesink.
 

Saxon1974

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I think the article has a good point.

I dont think lack of story a good game makes, but lack of hand holding helps. At least that's the impression I got from him.

I would rather have a large world\playground to explore around in instead of a movie style narrative. If I want that I'll just watch a movie (Or a bioware game)
 

JarlFrank

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I think some people missed this line:

"In my opinion, creating a world relies not on a huge range of opportunities, but on the suspension of disbelief. This is often best accomplished by limiting the actions available to the player... by allowing me to perform only actions appropriate..."

:retarded:
 

Xor

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Actually, he has a point, even if his arguments are flawed. Games with simpler stories tend to be more memorable than games with complex stories. Just look at the best selling games of all time. The best sellers are all things like Super Mario Bros (40 million), Wii Sports (60 million), The Sims (something like 20 million), etc.

It's possible story centric games don't do as well because of poor writing, or it's possible that simpler games like Super Mario just appeal to a wider audience. Those are the two most likely reasons I can think of.

I like games with a good story, but those are really few and far between. It seems to me that the harder a developer tries to create an epic story in their game, the worse that game turns out. Just look at Too Human.
 

DraQ

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Re: PC Gamer Editorial - "less story is more immersive&

How dreadfully derp.

At first I've read that:
games short on story tend to be the most immersive.
And thought that it might make some sense, as constraining player to a piece of narrative may hinder the immersion, while providing open, responsive world, reacting meaningfully and believably to wide variety of activities may enhance it.

Then suddenly:
Modern action or roleplaying games tend to offer the player a vast array of options and opportunities to interact with the game world, but in doing so they often lack [immersion].
In my opinion, creating a world relies not on a huge range of opportunities, but on the suspension of disbelief. This is often best accomplished by limiting the actions available to the player... by allowing me to perform only actions appropriate...
what


I don't know what he meant by "only actions appropriate", but I have a distinct feeling of derp, and sneaking suspicion that by games short on story, he actually means games short on everything.
 

attackfighter

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I think that's true for Dragon Fag. In Dragon Fag, all the party NPC's would go on 5 minute monologues about their mundane lives that were so inane no one could possibly care. DA's "spiritual predecessor" Baldurs Gate had wacky, 2 dimensional caricatures basically, but they were far more immersive than those found in Dragon Fag. So yeah, there's an example of where less story = better immersion.

The article is probably suggesting something stupid like Mario has more immersion than... Deus Ex, or something, but I don't give a shit I only reply regarding the topic title.
 

PorkaMorka

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He doesn't express himself too well but

X-Com is one of the most immersive games ever made and yet it has virtually no story.
 

Cassidy

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JarlFrank said:
I think some people missed this line:

"In my opinion, creating a world relies not on a huge range of opportunities, but on the suspension of disbelief. This is often best accomplished by limiting the actions available to the player... by allowing me to perform only actions appropriate..."

:retarded:

This sounds like something Weeaboos would post to justify their opinions about FF. The article started ok, but then descended into full hurr durr a few paragraphs later, as usual. Faggot mistakes the concepts of C&C with story.
 

Rhalle

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Half-Life made a cinematic story central to virtually every game that would follow; and did it with a mute protagonist and a narrative that was completely implied in real-time by visual clues. It had leapt ahead of the identity crisis games have today.

Painting epic pictures with words or patching up narrative blind spots in a visual medium with gobs of exposition robs the player of the experience itself, and it robs them of imagining on their own what it might have been.
 

Zomg

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PorkaMorka said:
He doesn't express himself too well but

X-Com is one of the most immersive games ever made and yet it has virtually no story.

It doesn't have much plot, but it has a lot of story (and I'm not just talking about user-generated stuff like caring about particular troops, I mean shit like the UFOpedia entries). The general understanding of stuff like "story" and "immersion" is so contradictory and/or under-defined I have no idea what the fuck the guy is talking about in articles like this honestly.
 

Deneidez

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Well, he is not wrong. Story can and usually will break immersion quite fast. Its about always do this & do that while not having access to all places. And when you progress magically some new areas will be available for you.

How about just give one quest and player could do it however he want to. No more boring 'you must do these 100 boring quests with way too much dull dialogy before you can complete this game and oh thats the whole game btw(!)'. Instead more lore, side quests, characters...
 

DraQ

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Zomg said:
The general understanding of stuff like "story" and "immersion" is so contradictory and/or under-defined I have no idea what the fuck the guy is talking about in articles like this honestly.
This.


Deneidez said:
Well, he is not wrong. Story can and usually will break immersion quite fast. Its about always do this & do that while not having access to all places.
Or all actions.
Oh wait.
 

DalekFlay

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Since there is some debate on the limited actions sentence and I edited it heavily to fit a sentence I will quote those 2 paragraphs in total, overuse of commas and all:

"There's a key lesson in Wing Commander for today's developers, and that had to do with focus. Modern action or roleplaying games tend to offer a the player a vast array options and opportunities to interact with the game world, but in doing so they often lack this all-important quality. In Mass Effect, for example, the player can do everything from micromanaging armor to negotiating with powerful leaders; Shepherd is kind of a one-person intervention.
In my opinion, creating a world relies not on a huge range of oppotunities, but on the suspension of disbelief. This is often accomplished by limiting the actions available to the player. Wing Commander made me feel like the pilot of a space fighter by allowing me to perform only actions appropriate to that role."
 

DraQ

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DalekFlay said:
Since there is some debate on the limited actions sentence and I edited it heavily to fit a sentence I will quote those 2 paragraphs in total, overuse of commas and all:

"There's a key lesson in Wing Commander for today's developers, and that had to do with focus. Modern action or roleplaying games tend to offer a the player a vast array options and opportunities to interact with the game world, but in doing so they often lack this all-important quality. In Mass Effect, for example, the player can do everything from micromanaging armor to negotiating with powerful leaders; Shepherd is kind of a one-person intervention.
In my opinion, creating a world relies not on a huge range of oppotunities, but on the suspension of disbelief. This is often accomplished by limiting the actions available to the player. Wing Commander made me feel like the pilot of a space fighter by allowing me to perform only actions appropriate to that role."
Sounds a bit less derp. Where are the links anyway?
 

Zomg

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I got the impression he was transcribing it from the paper copy.
 

zeitgeist

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The key to understanding this article is, as it often goes in the indie demimonde, in the game the author developed.
 

Yeesh

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Codex cannot into understanding immersion.

I really liked Chess, so actually that game is much more immersive than X. Author is dumb herp durr! World is dumb derpity durr!
 

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