Wasteland People Bitching About Jamming

[imweasel]

there's this paper on the reliability of four weapon platforms, based on info from combat veterans: M16, M4, M249 and M9. InXile should read it to understand that even the most prone to jamming weapons don't have percentages that high. although, they have cleaning kits in the armed forces. not sure if desert rangers get those

The game takes place 200 something years after an all out atomic war that destroyed all civiliation on earth. Everything in the Wasteland is quite a bit shittier than it was before the war.

Anyway, just mod your damn guns, then they will hardly ever jam.

 

[Saduj]

I'm part of the way through the prison and out of 4 chars who use weapons that could jam, all four are at 0% on their main weapons. I know that this was true for at least half of them even before the patch. During my last 3 fights, had an enemy weapon jam in every fight - twice when a heavy gunner was in position to really do some damage. At the moment the feature seems to work as a pretty nice advantage for players who make a small investment in weapon smithing. Unless the jam % increases on later game weapons and crafting fails to keep up, I don't see how this is unfair to the player. If anything its an overpowered advantage.

 

[Immortal]

I don't see how this is unfair to the player.

It's simple.. Someone's Gun Jammed in the game.. and they died and got really mad..

 

[Spockrock]

The game takes place 200 something years after an all out atomic war that destroyed all civiliation on earth. Everything in the Wasteland is quite a bit shittier than it was before the war.

there are weapon stockpiles in Russia today -- whole warehouses of crates -- that contain thousands of rifles: the SMLE (Lee-Enfield .303) given to Russia in the beginning of the 20th century as per their lend-lease agreement with GB. they're still packaged as if straight from the factory, they still have lubricant on them. meaning, if you wanted to, you could take out one of these things that are more than a 100 years old and fire it, and it would fire.

my point being: considering how many weapons are made today, most of them lying in crates in similar stockpiles, even if there was nuclear war, 200 years from then you could find a warehouse with these weapons in perfect condition.

you don't think your rangers use weapons that were used during and after the war, and were just well kept for hundreds of years, do you? metal wears really fast, they say a military-grade mass-produced rifle barrel can't take more than 5000 rounds fired through it. and that's only one part of a complex weapon system that is the modern assault rifle

 

[Visperas]

Is it possible that luck affects all "rolls" and then doesn't appear in the fuction for jamming?
Also, can you check if luck only influences what the tooltip says it does?
Good work!

 

[Volourn]

"I saw enemies have their weapon jam a whooping 2 times in 50+ hours of playing."

I don't believe you.

 

[Immortal]

Is it possible that luck affects all "rolls" and then doesn't appear in the fuction for jamming?
Also, can you check if luck only influences what the tooltip says it does?
Good work!

No it's not possible luck affects Jamming.. The 'Rolls' made are using the base class of Random.. It's a generic number generator that has no Wasteland 2 Code in it.

 

[aleph]

Jesus, guys, give it a rest with the "maybe luck affects..." stuff and start to understand basic probability and confirmation bias.

 

[GarfunkeL]

BUT MAH LUCK!

"I saw enemies have their weapon jam a whooping 2 times in 50+ hours of playing."

I don't believe you.

Considering I have seen four enemies get jams in four hours played, neither do I :D

 

[SymbolicFrank]

I stand corrected. So nowadays games are written in Unity crap instead of good old C++ ?

There is nothing good to old C++, just people who don't know anything else, and so proclaim their thing best.

Just about any other programming language is better.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

My sample size was 25 millionish and that still was too low to accurately detect any noticeable number bias between .NET and C++ BOOST implementations.

BOOST is used by C++ people who think it improves the language very much. Which mostly shows they have no notion about other programming languages, who don't need crutches for walking.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

Basically I don't see anything wrong with the code but we don't have all the code in that picture: please post the content of current.GetBonus("chanceToJam") function.

Until then my assumption is that Unity's RNG generator might be fucked meaning that it generates more numbers closed to 0 (could be a special case just for some type of processors).

Other than this, the code is unoptimized: the addition of chanceToJam each fucking time is retarded. I wonder why?

What is wrong with calculating each chance by itself? That's what random means.

But I guess you want them to use a table that is filled in advance, so it is "fair" and jams exactly 2 times in every 100 shots, if it's 2%?

 

[SymbolicFrank]

Terrible optimization? That shit can fetch one integer and add it to another up to THREE TIMES per someone shooting a gun. Hello framerate killer!

Premature optimization is the root of all evil.

 

[Raghar]

SymbolicFrank went all out by a quad post.

 

[Immortal]

Jesus, guys, give it a rest with the "maybe luck affects..." stuff and start to understand basic probability and confirmation bias.

He meant the attribute luck..

 

[aleph]

Jesus, guys, give it a rest with the "maybe luck affects..." stuff and start to understand basic probability and confirmation bias.

He meant the attribute luck..

I meant the attribute luck not luck in general.

Btw, you don't need to see the source code, just make characters with different luck scores give, them identical weapons and start counting. Seriously, this is basic math, there is nothing complicated happening here and still it flies over the head of a lot of people.

 

[Immortal]

Jesus, guys, give it a rest with the "maybe luck affects..." stuff and start to understand basic probability and confirmation bias.

He meant the attribute luck..

I meant the attribute luck not luck in general.

Btw, you don't need to see the source code, just make characters with different luck scores give, them identical weapons and start counting. Seriously, this is basic math, there is nothing complicated happening here and still it flies over the head of a lot of people.

You seriously think that was easier then looking at the code.. It literally took me 10 minutes.

Also your method is pretty terrible and prone to error.. You can't make a judgement call like that until you have a fairly large amount of samples and even then your results are inconclusive. You can't fire 20 shots with 2 different characters then plot them on a graph and say "Here's how it works"..

That is not how Random Number Generation works beyond grade 3 dice rolling assignments.

I do agree the math isn't hard.. I find it hilarious after this thread people are still arguing because maybe they saw 2 Jams in a row and now it's proven that the game is broken.

 

[aleph]

You seriously think that was easier then looking at the code.. It literally took me 10 minutes.

Also your method is pretty terrible and prone to error.. You can't make a judgement call like that until you have a fairly large amount of samples and even then your results are inconclusive. You can't fire 20 shots with 2 different characters then plot them on a graph and say "Here's how it works"..

Of course, 20 shots is not enough. But slightly more, about 1000 or 10000 per character should be sufficient.

 

[Immortal]

You seriously think that was easier then looking at the code.. It literally took me 10 minutes.

Also your method is pretty terrible and prone to error.. You can't make a judgement call like that until you have a fairly large amount of samples and even then your results are inconclusive. You can't fire 20 shots with 2 different characters then plot them on a graph and say "Here's how it works"..

Of course, 20 shots is not enough. But slightly more, about 1000 or 10000 per character should be sufficient.

10 000 might approach what we consider enough to draw patterns of any obvious number bias.. but looking at the code is far more conclusive especially the algorithms behind the Random class.

But your right.. with a sample of 1000 or 10000 you could prove to naysayers that the game isn't buggy.. you would see a good even distribution.. but that would take a long ass time.. and the irrational people would still find their excuses..

 

[imweasel]

The game takes place 200 something years after an all out atomic war that destroyed all civiliation on earth. Everything in the Wasteland is quite a bit shittier than it was before the war.

there are weapon stockpiles in Russia today -- whole warehouses of crates -- that contain thousands of rifles: the SMLE (Lee-Enfield .303) given to Russia in the beginning of the 20th century as per their lend-lease agreement with GB. they're still packaged as if straight from the factory, they still have lubricant on them. meaning, if you wanted to, you could take out one of these things that are more than a 100 years old and fire it, and it would fire.

my point being: considering how many weapons are made today, most of them lying in crates in similar stockpiles, even if there was nuclear war, 200 years from then you could find a warehouse with these weapons in perfect condition.

What makes you think that a warehouse with a stockpile of 50-100k weapons hasn't already been plundered or not been destroyed in the war? What even makes you think there must be such a stockpile in Arizona?

you don't think your rangers use weapons that were used during and after the war, and were just well kept for hundreds of years, do you? metal wears really fast, they say a military-grade mass-produced rifle barrel can't take more than 5000 rounds fired through it. and that's only one part of a complex weapon system that is the modern assault rifle

I never said anything about the Rangers using guns from before the war (you brougt that up actually). I just said that everything is a lot shittier in the Wasteland.

Anyway, the Rangers do make their own weapons and gun barrels from somehwat shitty materials which are very limited. Same goes for ammo. Play the game.

It's simple.. Someone's Gun Jammed in the game.. and they died and got really mad..

Pretty much this. All they have to do is mod their weapons (so that they hardly ever jam) and/or use weapons that have a lower jam rate and/or actually also use the second weapon slot.

It's like we're on Steam forums or something here.

 

[Revolucas]

I'm curious. There is a Lucky Dodge mechanic for the PC, but does it work for AI too? A few people are claiming they have missed 100% chance hits. I'm wondering if they are full of shit.

A few people also claimed to jam at 0% chance which I tried to replicate by using Cheat Engine and firing my gun hundreds of times at an ally. Could not reproduce.

 

[Spockrock]

Anyway, the Rangers do make their own weapons and gun barrels from somehwat shitty materials which are very limited. Same goes for ammo. Play the game.

oh, so your argument is all weapons in the game were manufactured after the war. doesn't explain why a weapon you lifted off some junkie has the same chance to jam as a weapon made by rangers.

as I said, I just think the way jamming is implemented is lazy. that's my gripe

 

[Immortal]

Anyway, the Rangers do make their own weapons and gun barrels from somehwat shitty materials which are very limited. Same goes for ammo. Play the game.

oh, so your argument is all weapons in the game were manufactured after the war. doesn't explain why a weapon you lifted off some junkie has the same chance to jam as a weapon made by rangers.

as I said, I just think the way jamming is implemented is lazy. that's my gripe

Just to play devils advocate here.. The Junkie didn't make that gun.. Knowing the Gun will Jam 3% or 6% is meta knowledge your characters don't know.. The concept is.. the more complex the weapon.. the better likely there is for something to jam or not work.. It's assumed if a Junkie has some assault rifle.. it's about as well made as any other assault rifle that is still functioning.. it goes boom boom boom but sometimes it jams..

One of the NPC's actually mentions this in Ranger Citadel.. The fact they have to craft the weapons from spare parts and he actually says.. "If your gun Jam's out in the wastes.. don't complain to me" . I guess he prefers you go on the codex and complain.

 

[Visperas]

Mmmm...
I don't see that many people complaining. I sure wasn't since jamming ain't that big of a deal and the antijam mag is really easy to get, I just want to know how the mechanics work.
Luck is definetely dumpable but in general attributes are not that important: pick INT for the skill points, maybe STR for the hit points and whatever gives you more AP and that's it. It's a weird system.

 

[Immortal]

Mmmm...
I don't see that many people complaining.

Have you read this thread or the Wasteland 2 General Release thread..