Wasteland People Bitching About Jamming

[Baron Dupek]

And this would make WL2 Guns better? Without touching energy or mellee weapons?

No.
In 762mm your gun get jam because damages caused by dirt.
In WL2 gun jam randomly, for some reason. I know it's video games but still...

 

[GarfunkeL]

WL2 isn't trying to be a realistic squad-level tactics game. It's a party-based RPG.

If WL2 was trying to be new Jagged Alliance, then I'd be the first one to rampage with torches and pitchforks. But it's not. I'm content that it's roughly equal to Fallout 1/2.

Perhaps one day there will be a huge mod that will turn WL2 into squad-level tactics game by combining it with JA2 1.13 and that would be fucking awesome! But no point in screaming at WL2 for not being something it never intended to be.

 

[set]

It did have health regeneration at one point - if it had shipped with that, the game would have been completely unplayable. I think leveraging criticisms at its reduced tacticoolness is fine. It would improve the game.

JA2 suffers in some ways because it is too tactical. I dislike slogging through battles for ages, it's just too taxing on the player to demand the player be so stubborn in staying prone, or ordering new supplies and picking them up all the time, or being forced to repair equipment and be ridiculously cautious in your approach so nobody bleeds out and dies, etc. etc. - WL2 does have many of these elements though they are less pronounced.

I think a bigger issue in WL2 is how medical equipment is managed. Most of the non surgeon/first-aid kits are pretty useless. Poison is pathetic, bleeding is weaksauce, etc. even the 300 sec+ debuffs you can't remove are pretty tame. Really, the only killer thing is concussions - which for some odd reason nobody but some random ass NPC can remove. Why is that again?

I will also say there was a pretty big opportunity to do something neat that was lost. It's maybe outside of budget, considering the reactivity involved... But there was really nothing stopping them from letting the pod person/mutatnt infections from having some degree of non-lethality -- maybe a 50% chance your ranger doesn't die from its infection running its course (maybe just generated rangers only). You would be left then as a sentient pod person/mutant, with accompanying stat buffs/debuffs and dialogue changes.

 

[Toll]

It's pretty simple to add RNG without it being purly negative.

If you must have chance to hit, that is cool. If you want jamming to be a thing then add it to the missed result, not as it's own RNG event.

So game calculates a missed shot. Cool, before showing the missed shot to the player lets have some fun with it.
85% chance miss is a simple miss.
5-10% chance the miss is a jam, so you get a jam and the cons to that (unjamming). If you have a Jam heavy gun, then this % is increased.
5% chance of hitting your team mate if they are in-line. (if nothing in-line, a simple miss)
1-2% chance of dropping weapon (coordination of course can increase/decrease this score)

O looky at that. Now we have Jams in the game that have a higher frequency for 'Jammier' guns that is ALSO reduced by having a high weapon skill. A high weapon skill will mean you hit more than miss, thus reducing the total number of negative hits.

This way, you have the JAM mechanic in the game, without adding another layer of RNG prior to hit. Instead, you are adding detail to the miss result of a 'to-hit' RNG. This is called good design. Adding another layer of RNG prior to 'to-hit' RNG is bad design.

 

[Rhalle]

Just make all the numbers stop fucking lying.

Don't show me success percentages if they are bullshit.

 

[Norfleet]

WL2 isn't trying to be a realistic squad-level tactics game. It's a party-based RPG.

If WL2 was trying to be new Jagged Alliance, then I'd be the first one to rampage with torches and pitchforks. But it's not. I'm content that it's roughly equal to Fallout 1/2.

Yeah, it's clear this was not meant to be a game about Gunporn, as JA2 seems to have headed. Now that I've played this, for instance, I witnessed the immediately hilarious result: Revolvers jamming constantly. Unlike other guns, there is nothing I've found you can install to prevent this, and such an event doesn't occur in real life. If a revolver fails to fire due to a dud round, simply pulling the trigger again is generally enough to bring a new round in and fire. If you DO manage to somehow break it, it's going to fail in a way that's not going to be field-expedient to clear. A revolver malfunction would prevent you from reloading it, not firing it. But, because this is just a silly RPG and not a game meant to be gunporn, you get a jam from a revolver, making a noise unlike anything you should ever hear from a revolver.

 

[GarfunkeL]

You also cannot go prone, you cannot move while crouched, there is no difference between quick and aimed shots, there are no different ammo types and only few calibres, there's very few guns, no smoke grenades or flares, and so on and so forth.

 

[Norfleet]

Like I said: It's not a gunporn game. If you're expecting anything close, the inaccuracies in how various guns are depicted in the game are just downright cringeworthy.

there is no difference between quick and aimed shots

Wait, what? There are aimed shots? The only feature I found that came close was the option for "Headshot" to do double damage at a penalty to hit and AP cost. I would say that this definitely has a distinct difference between standard "quick" shots, but this clearly must not be what you mean...

 

[RK47]

Like I said: It's not a gunporn game. If you're expecting anything close, the inaccuracies in how various guns are depicted in the game are just downright cringeworthy.

there is no difference between quick and aimed shots

Wait, what? There are aimed shots? The only feature I found that came close was the option for "Headshot" to do double damage at a penalty to hit and AP cost. I would say that this definitely has a distinct difference between standard "quick" shots, but this clearly must not be what you mean...

In JA2 you have the ability to spend more AP to improve hit chance.
Basically this enables slower mercs to put all their AP into one shot instead of making a desperate snap shots that amount to very little hit chance at medium range.
In WL2 there is no option to do so, except to take a huge hit penalty for high crit, or reserve 1-2 AP for next round or crouch ,or spend it on ambush.

 

[Zarniwoop]

One of the NPC's actually mentions this in Ranger Citadel.. The fact they have to craft the weapons from spare parts and he actually says.. "If your gun Jam's out in the wastes.. don't complain to me" . I guess he prefers you go on the codex and complain.

Yeah, that fucker sells you guns with a 95% jam rate so it's obvious why he'd warn you against complaining. But hey you can get it down to only 91% with the fancy magazine mod

 

[SwiftCrack]

ITF: people don't understand probability.

I would imagine that this cuts both ways: People think that a weapon jams too much because it DOES jam too much.

But 7% of the time my sniper rifle jams every time. YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN.

I'm not sure if this is an actual stat from the game, but let's look at the numbers: If your weapon jams 7% of the time, then it will correctly fire 93% of the time. You have an 11% chance (0.93^30) of successfully emptying a 30 round magazine without jamming. Let's say we use 1% chance of jamming (99% chance of cycling): 0.99^30 = Only 74% chance of reaching the bottom of a 30 round mag.

In short, if the percentage chance of failure can be expressed as an integer, it's too damn high, and while users may not comprehend probability terribly well, neither do the designers who set those values.

Most people, both designers, and users, see values of 90% or better as "very good". An engineer will tell you that even 99% is shit. Any engineer building you something that only works 99% of the time is going to find himself embroiled in a vicious lawsuit and/or lose his job.

I'm sure any engineer in the wasteland setting would be very happy with a 99% success rate.

You know, since we are basing this on realism and all.

 

[Blaine]

Like what?

"Like what?", he asks.

There's a bevy of major issues with WL2. All of this autistic blowharding about weapon jamming—apparently meriting its very own thread, for some reason—should be the least of anyone's worries, one way or the other. It ought to be a cinch to mod, so the people aggrieved to the point of rage about inXile "making the game easier" or whatever should get right on that.

You want a list of "like what?", here it is:

• armor being far more detrimental than beneficial, and not scaling at all with skyrocketing weapon damage
• hundreds of uninteresting random loot nodes varying only in traps/alarms/locks and container type
• arguably, too many repetitive fights with generic trash mobs
• typos absolutely everywhere, in books, in dialogue, in area descriptions
• mismatched NPC models, descriptions, and/or portraits are far too common
• duplicated/missing clothing items in character creation, wonkiness with portraits and snapshots
• enemies moving immense distances in a single turn
• bugginess in general, though understandable, some of them are major and need to be addressed (for example, suicide monks causing nearby characters' clothes to vanish)

Those are just off the top of my head.

 

[Shadenuat]

There should be an upgrade for weapons to lessen jamming that don't have them. It's not fair shotguns only get to upgrade choke. Add them moving parts/reciever/grip whatever upgrades too.

 

[set]

I found an infinite experience glitch yesterday. Hack the turrets in the mutant base (near Night Terror). Then after the battle ends, don't loot the turrets you hacked, just repair them. You can repair them indefinitely, until you loot their corpses. At 10 xp~ a repair it's not too shabby. Might as well use Cheat Engine if you're that desperate for a pick me up, though.

 

[Immortal]

Like what?

"Like what?", he asks.

There's a bevy of major issues with WL2. All of this autistic blowharding about weapon jamming—apparently meriting its very own thread, for some reason—should be the least of anyone's worries, one way or the other. It ought to be a cinch to mod, so the people aggrieved to the point of rage about inXile "making the game easier" or whatever should get right on that.

You want a list of "like what?", here it is:

• armor being far more detrimental than beneficial, and not scaling at all with skyrocketing weapon damage
• hundreds of uninteresting random loot nodes varying only in traps/alarms/locks and container type
• arguably, too many repetitive fights with generic trash mobs
• typos absolutely everywhere, in books, in dialogue, in area descriptions
• mismatched NPC models, descriptions, and/or portraits are far too common
• duplicated/missing clothing items in character creation, wonkiness with portraits and snapshots
• enemies moving immense distances in a single turn
• bugginess in general, though understandable, some of them are major and need to be addressed (for example, suicide monks causing nearby characters' clothes to vanish)

Those are just off the top of my head.

I wasn't fanboying.. I was asking for a list of things that would be a good thing to fix or improve if we wanted to make a quick mod that could quickly address those issues.. I wouldn't want to waste time on a mod that was gonna double dip into issues that InXile is already planning to fix in their next month patch.. I was thinking more about balance / system issues that people generally hate like your first point about armor..

I'v been keeping a list of things that people complain about and a list of my own pet peeves.. I think we should really have a discussion about this.. maybe a new thread.. of just general balance and mechanic issues people have and what they would like to see.. I expect most bugs and performance issues to be fixed by InXile so I wouldn't worry about that stuff until they stop releasing patches..

Even if we copy concepts or ideas from other games that did it well.. I do think WL2 is missing depth but I don't want people to just say that.. I want people to suggest how it can be improved. It's easy to shit on things but way harder to offer alternatives that work.

 

[Raghar]

Explosion can rip clothes to pieces.

If intended, we need more detailed and naked character models. Show me proof it was intended. Detailed image of top of the woman model from front.

 

[Blaine]

He's using the troll for a reason. It wasn't actually intended. Vanished clothing doesn't happen to NPCs and affects PCs that are well away from the blast.

 

[Raghar]

And I thought they would add detailed naked character models...

 

[Brother None]

He's using the troll for a reason. It wasn't actually intended. Vanished clothing doesn't happen to NPCs and affects PCs that are well away from the blast.

It very much is intended for nuclear blasts to destroy clothing items.

Except for undies. Undies are nuclear blast-proof, per 80s movie logic.

 

[Blaine]

He's using the troll for a reason. It wasn't actually intended. Vanished clothing doesn't happen to NPCs and affects PCs that are well away from the blast.

It very much is intended for nuclear blasts to destroy clothing items.

Except for undies. Undies are nuclear blast-proof, per 80s movie logic.

That's awfully peculiar, because none of the NPCs actually hit by the blasts have their clothing removed. Their arms, legs, and face might be burned off (indeed, at least one sprite seems to have been created for the purpose of portraying this), but their clothes stay on.

Perhaps it's not so peculiar after all, come to think of it. As I've discovered, design inconsistencies are a dime a dozen in WL2.

 

[Raghar]

He's using the troll for a reason. It wasn't actually intended. Vanished clothing doesn't happen to NPCs and affects PCs that are well away from the blast.

It very much is intended for nuclear blasts to destroy clothing items.

Except for undies. Undies are nuclear blast-proof, per 80s movie logic.

Wasteland people don't use socks or undies.

 

[Immortal]

He's using the troll for a reason. It wasn't actually intended. Vanished clothing doesn't happen to NPCs and affects PCs that are well away from the blast.

It very much is intended for nuclear blasts to destroy clothing items.

Except for undies. Undies are nuclear blast-proof, per 80s movie logic.

Dun Dun DUNNNN

 

[Haba]

He's using the troll for a reason. It wasn't actually intended. Vanished clothing doesn't happen to NPCs and affects PCs that are well away from the blast.

It very much is intended for nuclear blasts to destroy clothing items.

Except for undies. Undies are nuclear blast-proof, per 80s movie logic.

That's awfully peculiar, because none of the NPCs actually hit by the blasts have their clothing removed. Their arms, legs, and face might be burned off (indeed, at least one sprite seems to have been created for the purpose of portraying this), but their clothes stay on.

Well duh. You can't replace clothes on NPC companions. You'll see your own characters and enemy NPCs lose clothing, but not your NPC companions. Because they don't have clothing slots at all.

Dunnae why. I'd love to change the looks of some of my shitty tribals.

 

[toro]

Without codex for one week but now I'm back.

Is it so far fetched to think that they have some Luck formula involved or some other shit?

No.. But I already said that it wasn't there..

Actually you did not say that before this post.

public virtual float GetBonus(string statName)
{
float num = 0f;
ItemTemplate_Mod itemTemplate_Mod = this.template as ItemTemplate_Mod;
if (itemTemplate_Mod != null)
{
float stat = itemTemplate_Mod.GetStat(statName);
num += stat;
}
return num;
}

That little part of tiny code is unoptimized.

No it's not.. The method is linear (O(n))

I would really like to see you stumbling in explaining the O(n) shit.

 

[toro]

Other than this, the code is unoptimized: the addition of chanceToJam each fucking time is retarded. I wonder why?

It's kind of funny how cocky you act but you proved you have no idea what you are talking about with this statement. I'm surprised you are allowed to run around here with a mouth like that.

And you had something on topic to say?