ph@t loot and epic levels

[ownedfool]

Since I am only a novice as far as RPGs are concerned, I have a question for you veterans - you know, you people that learned how to roleplay whilst still in diapers:


I read Volourn's review of HotU and I saw the complaint about all the ph@t lewt and also some other posters' complaints about epic levels in general and I have a few remarks.

As I understand it, a well balanced campaign is one where the adventurer and the monsters he is facing, are of about the same level with some of the bosses maybe a level or 2 higher. So, the adventurer will have to plan his attacks to take out a few monsters and he would probably need a decent weapon to take out a boss.

My questions are:

Why does it matter if the campaign you are playing allows for epic levels and weapons like a Greatsword + 10, if the monsters you are facing are of about the same level and the bosses a bit harder?

Volourn even mentioned that some of the fights were really difficult, so why then does he complain that he has a +10 weapon, but still find some of the fights hard?

Does it not mean that the balance of this campaign was done well? If I am level 3 and I fight level 3-5 monsters is the same to me as me being level 30 and fighting level 30-35 monsters.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well, the problem is that it gets silly. This is definitely the case when it's way overdone. See, some things out there should be really powerful and that's the point of them, they're the spooky, scary stuff that most adventurers are only supposed to hear about in legends and stuff. However, nearly every CRPG has the mentality of the 13 year old dungeon master who wants everything powerful - items, characters, monsters, etc. Well, these things are supposed to be uncommon things.

Get it?

 

[ownedfool]

Actually I do, but since we are talking of a CRPG, I guess most people, except the true, hardcore roleplayers, want to see all the neat visual effects that all the epic spells, etc. brings..

 

[Rosh]

Even the hardcore RPers like the spell effects and the occasional good find. That just shouldn't be the focus of a CRPG.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

I'm running through HotU now with my now 20th-level wizard, and while I'll admit part of me gets a kick wiping out a horde of driders with a nice time stop followed by a couple of wail of the banshees, in the end it gets old pretty quick. Haven't even broken into the epic levels and I'm already way more than a match for anything that gets thrown at me. There's just less tension, and developers usually follow into the trap of having enemies cheat to create a challenge, like that blasted mage who keeps miraculously surviving a pair of empowered Isaac's greater missile storms (60d6 a piece, no save in case you were wondering), only to time stop and teleport away, presumably because she's being saved for a big showdown. Yawn.

Plus, have you actually seen what they put in? Or visited the Bio boards lately? It's pretty obviously catering to the lowest common denominator. I don't know how many "OMG, my weapon master has a crit range of 10-20 with a save vs 45 or insta-death!!!!!" I saw after browsing around for a bit. It gets rather yawn-inducing when there's no challenge left and it's all about bragging about your character's statistics.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

Good point all. I agree on all accounts. It does get boring after awhile and eventually I lose interest and stop playing. Granted, I could resist the lure of all the ph@t lewt out there and trudge onwards with me +1 Sword Of Uselessness, but the damn shit is everywhere you look and constantly in your face. It gets annoying after awhile. "Oh, look, tough boss fight coming up.... wait.... what's this? OH!!! A +15 Gromnir Slaying Axe Of Poisonous Freezing Death Ray!!!"

Yeah.... okay.....

 

[Megatron]

I prefer smaller fights. You have to think more and work with what you have, plus the fights are more dynamic and intresting. Later levels just get boring.

It's a little like Fallout 2. The first part of the game is pretty good, as you can brawl and use low-tech weapons more, plus it's more risky. Later levels it's not challenging or that impressive, you don't feel like you've done anything that impressive.

It'd be alright if the epic battles were epic. But it's just the same stuff you did at lower levels, with higher numbers. Mabye higher levels could fight armies or fight equals and it means something to the story because you care, but..meh.

Think of the matrix movies (or dont). It was a lot better at the start when the character had to work with his strengths and the agents were something to be feared. In the sequels it was just boring, unless he was fighting 100s at the same time. Think of any memorable fight scene. Was it fought with huge guys and guns and they did similair stuff for 10 minutes, or were they just average guys up against something to fear and had to improvise? Or something.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

You want an epic level battle with some challenge? Piss of the guards in Daggerfall with a low level character and see how long you can survive. Of course hearing "HALT! HALT! HALT! HALT! HALT!" over and over again tends to grind on one's nerves, but I guess that can be considered part of the challenge as well.

 

[Azael]

I'm not really familiar with the setting, beyond the computer games based in it, so I have no objections based on that. I agree that it gets a bit silly when in games like Throne of Bhaal you are fighting dragons by the dozen, creatures that even I know are supposed to be rare and territiorial. It also usually only means more of the same, instead of fighting five level 8 opponents, you are now fighting five level 20 opponents, beyond the spells and abilities used the whole thing is essentially the same, the status quo is upheld.

 

[Elwro]

P Of course hearing "HALT! HALT! HALT! HALT! HALT!" over and over again tends to grind on one's nerves, but I guess that can be considered part of the challenge as well.

There's a special plugin for Morrowind that makes MW's guards say HALT the Daggerfallish way. Ingenious .

 

[Spazmo]

It's mostly a problem inherent to the d20 system. When you hit epic levels, your items, skills, abilities and spells give you such HUGE modifiers to all your rolls that the actual roll you make stops making a difference. When you get +57 to your attack roll, does it honestly matter if you roll a 10 or a 15 or a 20? Effectively, you only start rolling to determine if you score a critical hit or failiure. d20 just breaks at high levels because it becomes impossible to fail at anything and there's no random factor involved anymore. So when the role playing is gone and you don't even have any roll playing left... what's the point?

 

[Volourn]

Actually, the best, most challenging fights in HOTU are the ones vs. smaller groups. Uusually, mass fights are against creatures that are pathetically easy. My most fvaorite "mass combat' was against some over zealous super goblins in ch1. Tjhough; I'm sure amges had a much easier time there as a few fireballs would take care of them all quite quick.

The problem with ph@t lewt is like the others mentioned; after too much of it; it loses it's special edge and you simply don't care. Sorry; bvut I sold too many +5 or so weapons in HOTU it was humourous.

 

[Sheriff05]

Does it not mean that the balance of this campaign was done well? If I am level 3 and I fight level 3-5 monsters is the same to me as me being level 30 and fighting level 30-35 monsters.

The real problem as I see it, is that PC's should never attain those kinds of levels period.
.Level 30+ characters for all intensive purposes and based every published piece of D&D official material since 1978 are GODS,
(with the exception of the 3rd Ed ELH, more on that in a sec)
while of course PC's in any campaign should be heroic..where do you draw the line?
In my opinion, incredibily powerful creatures should be an anomally, that should only be defeated by strong groups with brains, strategy and intuition. HIgh challenge rating creatures should never be pawns that you put in a boxing ring with your PC for some one on one combat. The Idiotic 3rd Ed Epic Level Handbook, was devised for kids and powergamers whose idea of a "roleplaying game" is getting to the next level...this attitude "transformation" is was has exactly "dumbed down" both PNP published matierials and more notably CRPG's. IF your ever want to see another decent CRPG
anytime soon, ALL OF YOU..need to stop supporting crap like HotU...as it success, no matter how mild, is in direct opposition to what you really want- better role playing games. IF you want to be a god, go play Black and White

 

[Volourn]

Nope, and SP apparantly disagrees with you sinc ehe is currently playing it as well. Go figure.
HOTU isn't only about ph@t lewt, and epic levels. I'd rather play a agme with ph@t lewt and epic levels that has a decent story than a game geared to lower levels and a limited ph@t lewt and a horrible story ala TOEE.

I await your next irrational rant.

 

[Sheriff05]

My most fvaorite "mass combat' was against some over zealous super goblins in ch1.

Don't you see the complete idiocy in that fact the "super goblins" even exisit in the game?
I mean your level 20 PC is fight CR 20 goblins, there is ZERO difference between level 1 and 20 other than you all have more jewlery, it's retarded.

 

[Volourn]

You miss the point completely. Not surprising. You mean like the bugbears in TOEE are just stronger versions of "normal" bugbeaqrs? I don't hear you whining about the fact that the bugbears in TOEE are a much higher CR than the typical bugbear? Weird..

 

[Spazmo]

Nope, and SP apparantly disagrees with you sinc ehe is currently playing it as well. Go figure.

Saint is playing it because he's going to review it.

 

[Volourn]

Perhaps; but nobody here reviewed SOU so why the change for HOTU? From his early musings; he and I pretty much agree on ch1 to lesser or greater degree.

 

[Sheriff05]

Nope, and SP apparantly disagrees with you sinc ehe is currently playing it as well. Go figure.
HOTU isn't only about ph@t lewt, and epic levels. I'd rather play a agme with ph@t lewt and epic levels that has a decent story than a game geared to lower levels and a limited ph@t lewt and a horrible story ala TOEE.

I await your next irrational rant.

First of all levels 10- 20 aren't exactly LOW, and how the hell can you consider my last post irrational?, it's a valid argument whether you agree with or not.

 

[Sheriff05]

You miss the point completely. Not surprising. You mean like the bugbears in TOEE are just stronger versions of "normal" bugbeaqrs? I don't hear you whining about the fact that the bugbears in TOEE are a much higher CR than the typical bugbear? Weird..

There is huge difference in *bullshit* between,CR 20 goblins and CR 5 Bugbears
(thou some bugbears having a few ELC's is not a big deal)
I never said i agree with the way ToEE..handles that issue..
Stop using ToEE as your excuse for everything in HotU, it's just doesn't cut it.

 

[Volourn]

Levels 10-20? TOEE was for levels 1-10. Unless you are referring to something else.

As for your last post being irrational; it's real simple. You lambast BIO for increasing the power of goblins to challeng the PCs; but commened Troika for increasing the bugbears' power to challenge the PCs. My only beef with Troika's bugbears; is that they weren't challenging enough. And, oh, btw, the goblins weren't even close to 2oth level. In fact, they probably had 30-50 hit points max so calcuate the level that would make them. It's what they were using that made them challenging. Paint balls to make you an easier target, and catapults so please don't take stuff out of context next time. Thanks, and have a nice day.

There's also a lot to say about commentiung about CR20 goblins that don't even exist!!!

 

[Sheriff05]

Levels 10-20? TOEE was for levels 1-10. Unless you are referring to something else.

Get your shit together-

You said

" I'd rather play a game ph@t lewt and epic levels that has a decent story than a game geared to lower levels and a limited ph@t lewt and a horrible story ala TOEE. "

Aside from your constant ToEE comparsions, sounds to me like your implying anything less the Epic..is "geared toward lower levels"..I am just saying levels 10-20 aren't exactly low.

As for your last post being irrational; it's real simple. You lambast BIO for increasing the power of goblins to challeng the PCs; but commened Troika for increasing the bugbears' power to challenge the PCs. My only beef with Troika's bugbears; is that they weren't challenging enough. And, oh, btw, the goblins weren't even close to 2oth level. In fact, they probably had 30-50 hit points max so calcuate the level that would make them. It's what they were using that made them challenging. Paint balls to make you an easier target, and catapults so please don't take stuff out of context next time. Thanks, and have a nice day.

Get your facts straight, where the fuck do I 'commend troika on anything"
other than saying I "like" ToEE for what it is.? (in the past, not here)

oh and whatever their stats, "Super Goblins" are just stupid..I don't care what company is involved

 

[Volourn]

So, it's okay for bugbears to be bumped up in power; but goblins shoul be stuck with a measily 4hp? LMAO You obviously hjave a bug bear fetish and hate the poor goblins.

No where did I say that 'lower levels" were ba, or anything. The whole point of that sentence is to say I look for a good story and some nice role-playing as the main reasons why i like a particular game. Phat lewt, and the level being played at is irrelavnt to me for the most part if the other stuff is good. For the record, I have only played level 20+ characters once;a nd that was because I had a powergaming dm.

You commend Troika on everything. Not in this theead perhaps; but you most certainly do.

And, sorry, I don't touch my shit. I let shit disturbers like yourself do that. :twisted:

Once again, the goblins themsleves aren't anying overly special. But see, this is what you get when discussing soemthing you know so very little about.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

All I know is that I got my ass kicked by those goblins.. And just a few hours later, I was killing Vrocks and Balors in two rounds. That's just fucked there.

 

[Volourn]

HA! I know how you feel. I don't thin they beefed up the demons too much other than the named ones or the boss types. They're simply cannon fodder. Not surprising though with all the defenses one has at this level; most of the demons' special attacks are almost utterly useless and before they can do any real damage to; you've already slopped thema round. They needed to give the vrocks, and balors more hitdice to give them some challenge. And, yeah, those goblins are freaks.