Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Arkadin]

Paladins are well designed in Pillars of Eternity. It's fairly obvious that some classes have had more time and thought spent on them than others - Paladins are definitely one of them, and this is made even more obvious by the special talents Josh made for them.

Quick question if you've got time--which do you think are the well-designed classes, and which are the poorer ones?

 

[Sensuki]

Best designed: Paladins and Chanters

Good: Fighters (if inflexible), Rogues, Druids (Shapeshift sucks though - it is quite literally useless), Cipher (bit one dimensional and focus resource is OP atm), Priests (too paper in combat?)

Meh: Wizards (basically just an AoE DPS class), Monks (problems with wound spending), Barbarians (poor at DPS compared to Rogue, and very poor at tanking but could be fixed with tweaks)

Bad: Rangers - Shared Health design is a failure, and outside of that they are just uninspired, and probably constrained by D&D feels as well.

 

[tuluse]

I have to disagree with wizards. I find their spell list to be just fine. They have plenty of spells like web that aren't DPS.

I do wish both wizard and priest buffs were a little more fun though.

 

[Bester]

Wizards are completely generic. Everything that made mages cool in dnd was tossed. They're now like wow's mages - generic dps (and a web... so what?). Gone are:
- spell combinations, like cast cloudkill and send in skeletons
- protection spells, layers of defense and dispelling spells.. forget mage duels
- spells that mages now don't have: invisibility, teleportation, summons, enchanted weapon creation, divination school spells, necromancy, actually it'll go faster if I just say this - almost all spell schools are gone.

The new mage spell schools: fireball school and web school.

And they do have some (an extremely small amount of) interesting spells, but they're nipped in the bud by their uselessness, due to PoE's lack of prebuffs, fights speed, recovery times and AI that doesn't target intelligently.

 

[Maculo]

I actually believe that Priests could be one of the strongest classes with the caveat that one needs a certain level of in-game knowledge of mechanics or specific fights. You can optimize a party with the deflection or crit buffs, but it depends what party you want to bring. For that reason, I think Priests almost beg for meta or power gaming.

Also, I have to second that I am kind of underwhelmed by mages. I think part of that is Josh is trying to bring them down to earth a little compared to Baldur's Gate mages. I do not mean that in terms of the number of spells, but rather the types of spells like cloudkill, dragon's breath, teleportation, etc. I think the logic is that Obsidian removed any spell that would break PoE's lore/society. I do kind of miss the mage duels though.

I am also kind of underwhelmed by Barbarians. From a numbers perspective, the class is probably fine, but it does not stand out all that much to me. Rogues seem a better fit with a ranged weapon for damage.

 

[Starwars]

I've had the most fun with Chanters, Ciphers and Paladins. I enjoy them both mechanics-wise as well as their place and flavour in the game world. What do you think is wrong with Monks Sensuki? I quite enjoyed having one in my party, he was extremely useful.

I like Rogues, Priests and Fighters a lot. Barbarians could be nice too but yeah, I think they need a little more oomph.

I agree about Wizards. Much what made them feel special and powerful in the IE games is gone here. I still find BB Wizard hella useful but yeah, the coolness factor just isn't there. For me a lot of it is to do with the fact that there are no utility spells. The nice "flavour" isn't there. On the other hand, having a Wizard with a pistol is pretty cool I suppose.

Haven't really tried Druids and Rangers much to have an opinion.

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

I agree about Wizards. Much what made them feel special and powerful in the IE games is gone here. I still find BB Wizard hella useful but yeah, the coolness factor just isn't there. For me a lot of it is to do with the fact that there are no utility spells. The nice "flavour" isn't there. On the other hand, having a Wizard with a pistol is pretty cool I suppose.

In Baldur's Gate, level 5 wizards weren't extremely useful. Let alone level 1. They were pushover Almost until the very end.

Are you comparing to Baldur's Gate 2 ? Elaborate, I'm interested.

 

[Copper]

Barbarians don't really seem to have a strong focus - carnage should make them excellent at handling swarms of enemies in a front-line role, but their sprint ability implies they should be punching through to shank up nudists, and the specialists are better at either job. Sure, they might come into their own against specific enemy types, such as massed archers, but that seems weak - not 'we think undead are awesome, fuck your rogue at high levels' weak, but still, sort of a trap class.

Personally I'd either scrap them if they can't be made distinct, or go for a more clear cut dervish type fighter who does the opposite of a fighter, and is all about breaking engagement, knocking enemies back, stunning and debuffing and generally throwing the enemy battle line into chaos so the rogue can slip past/injured can withdraw/etc.

 

[Seari]

I really wish they went with fewer classes and multiclassing as the kickstarter goal instead of 11 classes.

 

[Bester]

In Baldur's Gate, level 5 wizards weren't extremely useful. Let alone level 1.

Lolwut. Sleep and identify made mages super useful even at first level. Level 5 - more versatile, more important. On higher levels - instrumental.

Mages had an essential role in BG2 and were irreplaceable because of it. Rogues, too. Fighters, too. Clerics, too. Those four archetypes are the essence of D&D and therefore IE games, they all complement each other. And yet in PoE mages have no role of their own, and can easily be replaced by ANY other class. They're generic damage dealers, they have NO MAGIC so to speak. Useless in party (even druids make more sense, more CC) and are even irrelevant lore-wise. Remember how mages were respected and feared in FR because they could pull anything out of their ass at any moment? Well not in here, at least the game certainly doesn't give that impression. They were literally castrated, no other class suffered so much from this IE-to-POE transition. I played all IE games as a mage, it being my favorite class and I've no desire to play POE as one.

 

[Seari]

Well according to Sawyer - all classes have to have the same power level throughout the game, because every player wants their main character to be the alpha übermensch.

 

[Infinitron]

There was never a chance of getting AD&D uberwizards in this game. We've known this since 2012, get over it

Oops, I could have sworn I saw him identify as female somewhere. In any case he's quite ditzy.

lol, I just saw this, case in point http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/69428-what-you-see-is-what-you-get-loot-system/?p=1539492

Lots of dumb people with dumb ideas in that thread (random breakage of items, oh gawd)

 

[Hobo Elf]

Wizards are completely generic. Everything that made mages cool in dnd was tossed. They're now like wow's mages - generic dps (and a web... so what?). Gone are:
- spell combinations, like cast cloudkill and send in skeletons
- protection spells, layers of defense and dispelling spells.. forget mage duels
- spells that mages now don't have: invisibility, teleportation, summons, enchanted weapon creation, divination school spells, necromancy, actually it'll go faster if I just say this - almost all spell schools are gone.

The new mage spell schools: fireball school and web school.

And they do have some (an extremely small amount of) interesting spells, but they're nipped in the bud by their uselessness, due to PoE's lack of prebuffs, fights speed, recovery times and AI that doesn't target intelligently.

You are making me regret backing this game. Wizards are the most important class for me.

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

In Baldur's Gate, level 5 wizards weren't extremely useful. Let alone level 1.

Lolwut. Sleep and identify made mages super useful even at first level. Level 5 - more versatile, more important. On higher levels - instrumental.

Quantify ''super useful'' and compare it to rolling a fighter instead. The mage in Baldur's gate 1 spends most of his time acting as a terrible archer and rolling a spell very occasionally because he has less than 10 spell slots at level 5.

Unless you're one of these people who savescum their way to sleep after every encounters.

 

[Osvir]

Wizards are completely generic. Everything that made mages cool in dnd was tossed. They're now like wow's mages - generic dps (and a web... so what?). Gone are:
- spell combinations, like cast cloudkill and send in skeletons
- protection spells, layers of defense and dispelling spells.. forget mage duels
- spells that mages now don't have: invisibility, teleportation, summons, enchanted weapon creation, divination school spells, necromancy, actually it'll go faster if I just say this - almost all spell schools are gone.

The new mage spell schools: fireball school and web school. // HAH! Have you played the Beta? Oh, and if you have, these are the ONLY spells you pick? No imagination?

And they do have some (an extremely small amount of) interesting spells, but they're nipped in the bud by their uselessness, due to PoE's lack of prebuffs, fights speed, recovery times and AI that doesn't target intelligently.

You are making me regret backing this game. Wizards are the most important class for me.

Honestly, I find the spell list/arsenal short. However, if you want to build a creative build you have all the ability to do so, but there's not much in the way of "Out of Combat" spells... or even "Scripted Events" Spells (or are there? I dunno).

I think, because there's been so much butt-hurt, expansions and sequels will get more spells. Oh, and Mods.

Personally, I think the Wizards are cool and fun to use, and if you are creative (and not min-maxer/"must have stronkest character") you can build it varied and as you want to build it (I built a "Mind Mage", Illusionary Wizard, it wasn't the strongest in terms of "power" or "damage" but hey, it was super fun, all these people complaining about "It's all about damage!!" seem to be "all about damage" *shrug*).

Like, if you're so butt-hurt about the DPS... why are you not trying to "break it" and try tactics and strategies "out-of-the-box"? Try creating an utterly worthless character that can't do shit, but has an interesting or laughable concept or build. Don't think numbers, think narrative. What sort of Spells do you pick and put in the Grimoire? How does that shape your character?

Seeing all of this butt-hurt about "Bad spells!" makes me wonder if you're either picking spells you inherently do not like... or if you're just... NOT roleplaying o.O

Is this the RPGCodex... or the BHGCodex...? (BHG = ButtHurtGaming) Man... does that exist? Sounds like there's a lot of capital to be made there.

 

[Mrowak]

There was never a chance of getting AD&D uberwizards in this game. We've known this since 2012, get over it

Frankly, the first time I heard that they are making all classes nearly as powerful, I thought "oh, so all of them will be as fun to play at their specific role as Wizards in BG2. So cool". Well, instead all of them are rather generic and boring to play like DA:O/NWN2 warriors. Riveting prospect.

 

[Infinitron]

There was never a chance of getting AD&D uberwizards in this game. We've known this since 2012, get over it

Frankly, the first time I heard that they are making all classes nearly as powerful, I thought "oh, so all of them will be as fun to play as Wizards in BG2. So cool". Well, instead all of them are rather generic and boring to play like DA:O/NWN2 warriors. Riveting prospect.

As other people in this thread have stated, that's hardly true even now.

 

[Mrowak]

There was never a chance of getting AD&D uberwizards in this game. We've known this since 2012, get over it

Frankly, the first time I heard that they are making all classes nearly as powerful, I thought "oh, so all of them will be as fun to play as Wizards in BG2. So cool". Well, instead all of them are rather generic and boring to play like DA:O/NWN2 warriors. Riveting prospect.

As other people in this thread have stated, that's hardly true even now.

Yes, I played the Beta, it's hardly true the classes are as interesting as Wizards in BG2.

 

[Infinitron]

There was never a chance of getting AD&D uberwizards in this game. We've known this since 2012, get over it

Frankly, the first time I heard that they are making all classes nearly as powerful, I thought "oh, so all of them will be as fun to play as Wizards in BG2. So cool". Well, instead all of them are rather generic and boring to play like DA:O/NWN2 warriors. Riveting prospect.

As other people in this thread have stated, that's hardly true even now.

Yes, I played the Beta, it's hardly true the classes are as interesting as Wizards in BG2.

Just as a thought experiment, how would you make every class "as interesting as Wizards in BG2"? What does that even mean? Would you add a bunch of activateable melee maneuvers to fighters so they can have "fighter duels" analogous to BG2 mage duels?

"Oh shit, he activated Parry!" "That's cool, counter that by clicking the Attack Legs icon." "Now he's using Dodge!" "Cool, that means he's off balance now, use your Bash ability to knock him over."

 

[Sensuki]

What do you think is wrong with Monks Sensuki? I quite enjoyed having one in my party, he was extremely useful.

You don't have enough ways to get rid of Wounds, particularly at low levels - mostly due to the change in the advancement system.

That's supposed to be the Monk's thing, spending Wound points to remove damage and perform abilities. At 5th level you only have like two actives and it often doesn't make sense to spam stunning blows because that's an action where you could have potentially done like 30-70 damage, but didn't.

 

[Shevek]

I've had the most fun with Chanters, Ciphers and Paladins. I enjoy them both mechanics-wise as well as their place and flavour in the game world. What do you think is wrong with Monks Sensuki? I quite enjoyed having one in my party, he was extremely useful.

I like Rogues, Priests and Fighters a lot. Barbarians could be nice too but yeah, I think they need a little more oomph.

I agree about Wizards. Much what made them feel special and powerful in the IE games is gone here. I still find BB Wizard hella useful but yeah, the coolness factor just isn't there. For me a lot of it is to do with the fact that there are no utility spells. The nice "flavour" isn't there. On the other hand, having a Wizard with a pistol is pretty cool I suppose.

Haven't really tried Druids and Rangers much to have an opinion.

I have to agree. Paladin, Fighter, Chanter, Rogue, Cipher, Priest is my favorite party at present.

Barbarians need to be beefed up (especially their Carnage ability). The Ranger feels kinda meh to me. I am a bit put off by the shared health thing. Druids I havent tried enough.

Wizards would feel better if they dished more dmg and had spell sequencer, contingency, etc line of spells.

 

[Mrowak]

There was never a chance of getting AD&D uberwizards in this game. We've known this since 2012, get over it

Frankly, the first time I heard that they are making all classes nearly as powerful, I thought "oh, so all of them will be as fun to play as Wizards in BG2. So cool". Well, instead all of them are rather generic and boring to play like DA:O/NWN2 warriors. Riveting prospect.

As other people in this thread have stated, that's hardly true even now.

Yes, I played the Beta, it's hardly true the classes are as interesting as Wizards in BG2.

Just as a thought experiment, how would you make every class "as interesting as Wizards in BG2"? What does that even mean? Would you add a bunch of activateable melee maneuvers to fighters so they can have "fighter duels" analogous to BG2 mage duels?

"Oh shit, he activated Parry!" "That's cool, counter that by clicking the Attack Legs icon." "Now he's using Dodge!" "Cool, that means he's off balance now, use your Bash ability to knock him over."

Pax, bro. I was just pulling your leg. In truth, I stopped playing PoE a month ago or so. What I found there was not very satisfying to my tastes, but I hear they have made some improvements. Still, I am waiting for the final product. Only then will I really judge it.

It seems you are very invested with this title, defending it everywhere. It's needless effort and I fear you are a little bit biased in its favour, having read your earlier responses. Or maybe the gameplay they have just suits your specific tastes. In any case, cheers, bro.

 

[Infinitron]

It was a serious question, but okay

 

[Osvir]

I made an Orlan Barbarian with a Mohawk yo! It was great, I forgot to see how much impact he did in combat in the Biography though *loads finished game*

Woo, Most Damage Done, with 16 Might, 16 Con and 18 Dex. I like all the classes, personally

 

[Athelas]

Whoever picked out the spell selection for BB wizard has a really banal imagination. They chose almost only pure damage spells, instead of the semi-interesting (and more useful) spells like Combusting Wounds or Bewildering Spectacle.