Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

Is it just me or this is very tacky? Instead of having single, strong buffs you gotta cast several watered-down ones to get a proper effect. That's tedious, mindless clicking - and as far as I'm concerned the problem with IE buffing was exactly the tedium involved.

Well, you don't have to. He just delivered that example so you could get a sense of how fast you can put these spells up. So as to demonstrate that it's not that big a deal that you can't cast any individual spell before combat actually begins.

So pre-buffing is bad even with resource cost, but casting 6 buffs in 4 seconds the instant combat begins is a perfect solution. Am I understanding something wrong or did the genius shift the pre-buffing ritual 4 seconds into the future. I suppose the downside is no group buffs ?

What else could Aloth have done in 4 seconds? Among other options, he could have thrown at least one strong offensive spell and started another one, which seems like a reasonable trade-off.

 

[Johannes]

Infinitron gets the answers: http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/105443128241/is-it-possible-that-youve-overcompensated-for#notes

The problem then shifts to finding the right activation time to make it a worthwhile trade. I still need to tune a lot of the priest and druid spells, but I believe the wizard self-buffs feel solid in our local build. All wizard self-buffs are set to “instant” (actually about 20 frames) with no recovery. I did some tests with Aloth where I had him provoke fights and immediately go through a variety of self-buff sequences, usually:

* Arcane Veil
* Ironskin
* Flame Shield
* Mirrored Image
* Citzal’s Spirit Lance
* Citzal’s Martial Power

In about 4 seconds, he had six buffs on him and was ready to wade in and go nuts. What else could Aloth have done in 4 seconds? Among other options, he could have thrown at least one strong offensive spell and started another one, which seems like a reasonable trade-off. If I wanted to go crazier with him, I could have kept going: Llengrath’s Safeguard, Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, Eldritch Aim, etc. — but that would be another 2 seconds of self-buffing while enemies and allies are moving and resolving their own actions.

So while there is still more tuning to do on buffs, both in terms of power and activation time, I think this is the right direction to go with them.

Is it just me or this is very tacky? Instead of having single, strong buffs you gotta cast several watered-down ones to get a proper effect. That's tedious, mindless clicking - and as far as I'm concerned the problem with IE buffing was exactly the tedium involved.

Well, you don't have to. I think he just described that example so you could get a sense of how fast you can put these spells up. So as to demonstrate that it's not that big a deal that you can't cast an individual spell before combat.

The point is that he actually didn't address the problem with pre-buffing, when he removed pre-buffing.

 

[Infinitron]

The point is that he actually didn't address the problem with pre-buffing, when he removed pre-buffing.

How did he not? Putting up all those buffs used to be risk-free and opportunity cost-free, now it isn't. If you want to light yourself up, though, you still can. Everybody wins!

 

[Johannes]

The point is that he actually didn't address the problem with pre-buffing, when he removed pre-buffing.

How did he not? Putting up all those buffs used to be risk-free and opportunity cost-free, now it isn't.

Them being risk-free was never the main problem. The problem was that it's boring busywork to layer them on time and time again.

It'd be way better if we had singular buffs that took longer to cast, but were in turn properly gamechanging effects. Not 6 spells to get 6 minor effects of your choosing. Would be better both tactically and UI-wise.

 

[Infinitron]

Them being risk-free was never the main problem.

Citation needed

The problem was that it's boring busywork to layer them on time and time again.

Well, it won't be as boring when there are enemies rushing you while you do it. That said, I know that Josh spoke of letting players automate buffs for a one click casting, but I'm not sure if that'll make it into the game.

Also, I edited my previous post.

 

[Johannes]

Them being risk-free was never the main problem.

Citation needed

Countless hours of playing BG2, also Intellection.

But really, what is the problem with risk-free pre-buffing (as long as there's tradeoffs and a resource cost)? Should there be,say, also be a risk to changing your equipment before combat?

 

[Lord Andre]

There's no fucking trade off. Either one option is better than the other or not. And it would be retarded to cast 6 buffs in a fight but you cast the one you need against that particular foe instantly for 0 resource cost and follow with damage spell. Back to trade off, there's no tactical choice, it's just this: either a spell does so much damage that it's too good not to open with or it does too little and you never use it. ever. because it's a party game and you have dedicated damage dealers.

For fuck's sake, the choice of what ability button to press does not equal tactics...Not even in shitty MMOs...

 

[Seari]

That seems retarded lols

 

[tuluse]

Countless hours of playing BG2, also Intellection.

But really, what is the problem with risk-free pre-buffing (as long as there's tradeoffs and a resource cost)? Should there be,say, also be a risk to changing your equipment before combat?

It's basically the most boring of activities. If you get free prebuffs before battle, they might as well just be class bonuses that are always on.

 

[Infinitron]

There's no fucking trade off. Either one option is better than the other or not.

If only life were that simple. Doing an exhaustive analysis of the next N minutes of real-time combat with randomized elements and determining the optimal next move is probably beyond the capabilities of most people.

And it would be retarded to cast 6 buffs in a fight but you cast the one you need against that particular foe instantly for 0 resource cost and follow with damage spell.

So, like a pre-buff?

Back to trade off, there's no tactical choice, it's just this: either a spell does so much damage that it's too good not to open with or it does too little and you never use it. ever. because it's a party game and you have dedicated damage dealers.

Well, Wizards in PoE have the capacity to be excellent dedicated damage dealers. It would be rather arrogant to presume that no player would try to have a wizard who casts both damage spells and the occasional buff.

Unless you actually do want MMO-style classes, where a class only has offense spells or only has buff spells?

It's basically the most boring of activities. If you get free prebuffs before battle, they might as well just be class bonuses that are always on.

Which is what the modals are! One of them can always be on and you can choose which.

 

[Lord Andre]

Actually I'mma rant a bit about this "tactics" concept that keeps getting thrown around.

Tactics means that one opponent is smart enough to deduce/figure out/guess what patterns of attack/defence his enemy will use and then make a plan around that pattern that makes the enemy's actions sub-optimal and self-defeating. It actually requires enough knowledge of the enemy and upcoming battle to make an educated guess on what to expect and plan a counter before the battle begins.

Making the optimal choice of abilities in an encounter that has already started and you have no intel about (no save-scumming) is not fucking tactics. Apparently this is why some people don't understand Sensuki's beef with engagement, they don't realize the tactical value of movement because tactics to them is limited to "in this situation what ability is best for me to pick".

 

[Johannes]

Countless hours of playing BG2, also Intellection.

But really, what is the problem with risk-free pre-buffing (as long as there's tradeoffs and a resource cost)? Should there be,say, also be a risk to changing your equipment before combat?

It's basically the most boring of activities.

Yes that's what I said. Infinitron and Sawyer seem to disagree though.

 

[tuluse]

Actually I'mma rant a bit about this "tactics" concept that keeps getting thrown around.

Tactics means that one opponent is smart enough to deduce/figure out/guess what patterns of attack/defence his enemy will use and then make a plan around that pattern that makes the enemy's actions sub-optimal and self-defeating. It actually requires enough knowledge of the enemy and upcoming battle to make an educated guess on what to expect and plan a counter before the battle begins.

Making the optimal choice of abilities in an encounter that has already started and you have no intel about (no save-scumming) is not fucking tactics. Apparently this is why some people don't understand Sensuki's beef with engagement, they don't realize the tactical value of movement because tactics to them is limited to "in this situation what ability is best for me to pick".

Well that's an autistic definition of tactics if I ever heard one.

I think adapting to new things happening is a key part of tactics. If you correctly predicted everything that's not tactical, it's just rote (which is what sensuki's problem is, the battles are rote [ofc he just fights beetles over and over, so that probably factors into this]).

Countless hours of playing BG2, also Intellection.

But really, what is the problem with risk-free pre-buffing (as long as there's tradeoffs and a resource cost)? Should there be,say, also be a risk to changing your equipment before combat?

It's basically the most boring of activities.

Yes that's what I said. Infinitron and Sawyer seem to disagree though.

Buffs in PoE are not risk free. Changing equipment in PoE is also not risk free. Everything has trade offs, faster armor vs protective armor, damage vs buffs.

 

[Infinitron]

Tactics means that one opponent is smart enough to deduce/figure out/guess what patterns of attack/defence his enemy will use and then make a plan around that pattern that makes the enemy's actions sub-optimal and self-defeating. It actually requires enough knowledge of the enemy and upcoming battle to make an educated guess on what to expect and plan a counter before the battle begins.

This sounds more like a strategy

Yes that's what I said. Infinitron and Sawyer seem to disagree though.

Do I need to mention that PoE's buffs are still (at least at the beginning) per-rest abilities? Even if you want to layer them all on IN THE MIDDLE OF A FUCKING BATTLE (which sounds pretty exciting and non-boring to me), you're only going to be able to do that a limited amount of times, and no endless resting like in the IE games.

You are being pretty silly about this.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Won't this system of arbitrarily limiting buffs to combat just lead to silly situations where you "start combat" with a fast character far away from your party just to move back to your party so mages and priests have time to pre-buff?

 

[Infinitron]

Won't this system of arbitrarily limiting buffs to combat just lead to silly situations where you "start combat" with a fast character far away from your party just to move back to your party so mages and priests have time to pre-buff?

Good question. In general, I'm not sure how Obsidian have dealt with (if at all) with "separated party exploits".

 

[tuluse]

Won't this system of arbitrarily limiting buffs to combat just lead to silly situations where you "start combat" with a fast character far away from your party just to move back to your party so mages and priests have time to pre-buff?

It might, you should ask Josh.

 

[Johannes]

Layering them all in is the same amount of clicking regardless of whether it's in or out of battle. Choosing your buffs wasn't boring in IE games, applying them was.

Do I need to mention that PoE's buffs are still (at least at the beginning) per-rest abilities? Even if you want to layer them all on IN THE MIDDLE OF A FUCKING BATTLE (which sounds pretty exciting and non-boring to me), you're only going to be able to do that a limited amount of times, and no endless resting like in the IE games.

Aren't those just arguments that support allowing you to cast them pre-battle?

Countless hours of playing BG2, also Intellection.

But really, what is the problem with risk-free pre-buffing (as long as there's tradeoffs and a resource cost)? Should there be,say, also be a risk to changing your equipment before combat?

It's basically the most boring of activities.

Yes that's what I said. Infinitron and Sawyer seem to disagree though.

Buffs in PoE are not risk free. Changing equipment in PoE is also not risk free. Everything has trade offs, faster armor vs protective armor, damage vs buffs.

Derp, you're just switching the argument back and forth. To me, clicking through 6 different buffs per 4 seconds of combat, is boring, while it's super exciting to Infinitron. Problem Infinitron and Sawyer have with prebuffs is that they're risk-free, which doesn't have to be a problem at all if the game's well designed - any more than being able to change equipment outside combat is. Changing equipment is 100% risk free, the comparison's got nothing to do with the properties of your equipment. Both are ways to prepare yourself for a given encounter before it starts. You choose buff X, and weapon Y.

 

[Athelas]

That's a pretty silly comparison. Equipment is permanent and continuous, whereas buffs are temporary and can be dispelled.

Also, you can only equip 1 type of equipment at a time (i.e. you can only use 1 shield), whereas many games let you stack as many buffs as you can.

 

[Johannes]

That's a pretty silly comparison. Equipment is permanent and continuous, whereas buffs are temporary and can be dispelled.

And is there something inherently wrong with starting a battle with a temporary, dispellable effect on you?

 

[Athelas]

That's a pretty silly comparison. Equipment is permanent and continuous, whereas buffs are temporary and can be dispelled.

And is there something inherently wrong with starting a battle with a temporary, dispellable effect on you?

I never said there was. I was just pointing out the flaws in your comparison. If your equipment could break down in the IE games, your comparison might have been somewhat valid.

 

[Johannes]

That's a pretty silly comparison. Equipment is permanent and continuous, whereas buffs are temporary and can be dispelled.

And is there something inherently wrong with starting a battle with a temporary, dispellable effect on you?

I never said there was. I was just pointing out the flaws in your comparison. If your equipment could break down in the IE games, your comparison might have been somewhat valid.

I never said you said. But Sawyer, Infinitron et al think so. That switching equipment is not 100% same as pre-buffs, doesn't make the comparison invalid - they're categorically hating on one specific kind of battle preparation for no real logical reason.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Won't this system of arbitrarily limiting buffs to combat just lead to silly situations where you "start combat" with a fast character far away from your party just to move back to your party so mages and priests have time to pre-buff?

It might, you should ask Josh.

he'd just "solve" it by restricting distance between party members or something

I really dislike Sawyer's instinct to always move towards arbitrary restrictions in order to gimp no-brainers, rather than looking towards more systemic solutions. The problem with resting and pre-buffing in IE games was that the player party was the only one active outside of combat. Rather than take something interesting (player activity during non-combat) and balancing things by applying it to the enemy (e.g. having them fortify themselves and lay ambushes while the player rests, or have magically sensitive enemies sense the player using pre-buff spells and either attacking or preparing themselves defensively), Sawyer seemingly invariably reacts by restricting that interesting thing; in this case by restricting player activity and choice during non-combat. It's the dullest imaginable way of achieving balance imo.

 

[Athelas]

That would be cool, but are there actually any RPG's where enemies do what you describe?

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

That would be cool, but are there actually any RPG's that do what you describe?

I'm just impersonating Excidium in his honor's absence