Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

Did they ever try making "warriors" reduce movement speed in an area around them (maybe falling off with radius)? Has that ever been done in an MMO or something? Seems kinda natural and it would make it a really "analog" interaction that you wouldn't need to pause constantly to micromanage.

MMOs generally employ an aggro generation metagame to achieve stickiness.

At one point, Josh implied that since backers strongly rejected aggro, melee engagement was the only alternative. But I'll ask him about the slowing. Been meaning to for a while: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ta-release-thread.93694/page-240#post-3592942

 

[Athelas]

Focusing on front line stickiness seems like a red herring. You're penalized for even minuscule movements, like moving a character two steps back to perfectly align with an AoE spell you're casting. The engagement system also appears to be at odds with the class mechanics they've designed - building up Focus/Wounds with the Cipher/Monk and then moving away to cast/attack elsewhere won't be easy without suffering a bunch of disengagement attacks.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

>Very early in development, players complained that IE melee characters were not sticky

Where, when?? Looks like a lie.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60078-taunt-or-no-taunt/

Why not just let the warriors get something like an "attack of oppertunity" (like in D&D) when an enemy tries to move when he is close to a another character? That way it would actually matter how you position your characters in relation to the enviroment.

A cautionary tale on how Kickstarter devs shouldn't always listen to their backers.

A thread about something entirely different, with 8 replies and 64 votes?

 

[Athelas]

I linked to the first thing a search turned up. But here's another one: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62234-kiting-enemies-or-how-not-to-do-ai/

Also, punishing attacks of opportunity. And attacks of opportunity that can be used for knockdowns. Please and thanks.

Not that this justifies it. 'We are implementing this shitty mechanic because our backers requested it' is obviously a cop-out.

 

[Gozma]

Did they ever try making "warriors" reduce movement speed in an area around them (maybe falling off with radius)? Has that ever been done in an MMO or something? Seems kinda natural and it would make it a really "analog" interaction that you wouldn't need to pause constantly to micromanage.

MMOs generally employ an aggro generation metagame to achieve stickiness.

At one point, Josh implied that since backers strongly rejected aggro, melee engagement was the only alternative. But I'll ask him about the slowing. Been meaning to for a while: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ta-release-thread.93694/page-240#post-3592942

I'd think it would not be possible to try at this point because it's the kind of thing AI sucks at (it would necessitate really dynamic pathing)

 

[tuluse]

I'd think it would not be possible to try at this point because it's the kind of thing AI sucks at (it would necessitate really dynamic pathing)

I don't think it matters too much if the AI sucks at it. It would still be to manipulate enemies into the slow down zones and then reign fire down on them.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Question about the cypher, are they supposed to be front line fighters? Their whip is a nice bonus to melee damage but their abilities are somewhat long to cast and leave me exposed while in the midst of the melee.

Also was nice to have cypher specific dialogue down in the cultist temple boss fight, was a nice moment. The writing is quite better in this small snippet of gameplay than anything i saw in both WL2 or D:OS.

 

[tuluse]

Question about the cypher, are they supposed to be front line fighters? Their whip is a nice bonus to melee damage but their abilities are somewhat long to cast and leave me exposed while in the midst of the melee.

Also was nice to have cypher specific dialogue down in the cultist temple boss fight, was a nice moment. The writing is quite better in this small snippet of gameplay than anything i saw in both WL2 or D:OS.

I don't get the feeling Cyphers are meant to be front line. Give him a spear and go nuts behind your fighter.

 

[Lord Andre]

I have a radical idea regarding this engagement thing. How about instead of it, we have this:

- characters occupy a circle on the map - the one they're standing on. Other characters can't pass through the occupied circle and can't push characters out of the way during combat without a special ability or strength check + graple etc..
- in order to pass through somewhere, your own circle or the enemy's circle must have room to pass.
- give fighters the ability to build baricades by purchasing the right tools and materials, thus making natural choke points even chokier. Have spells for this too.
- place 1-2 fighters in the choke point. Have them defend.
- PROFIT!!!!

 

[Shevek]

I think you can make a frontline cipher but you would have to use skills constantly to up his deflection and dt. Might make and interesting frontline debuffer (maybe with a pike or quarterstaff for reach). Very high stat requirements though. I mean, he would need every stat to be decent - no dump stats. Not sure how well that would work.

Its much easier to just give them a bow.

 

[Tigranes]

Feels like you need to spend 30 hours reading about the systems before you can talk POE these days, but after trying a few hours on Day 1, I fired up the Beta again, looked around, killed some beetles, died to some beetles.

The UI is beautiful, the gameworld is beautiful, the game plays quite smoothly everywhere, having lost most of the frustrations from Day 1. Just walking around town talking to a few people and it is as IE as any IE game.

Combat also seems much less clusterfucky, though certainly more clusterfucky than BG1/2 (more comparable I think to NWN1/2), primarily due to the use of 'softer' VFX and the way shading is done for overlapping critters. If there were only proper hit animations or some other kind of feedback for your own guys getting hit (they get boned for 35 damage and it only shows up on the log?), it seems like there'd be little trouble telling what is going on.

Have obviously not played for many hours to dissect the engagement system and other new things, just commenting on how the clusterfucky / poor usability problems from Day 1 seem mostly addressed. And I'm sure once the player learns what all the new abilities and spells do it's better as well.

 

[Johannes]

Can't say I ever wished for more "stickiness" or had excessive problems defending my mages in the IE games.

I do think that some kind of stickiness does benefit RT combat - in IE games you could run rings around encounters with melee-only enemies and only get hit at your leisure.

Alas, AoO's are a horrible way to address the issue. Medicine being worse than the cure.

 

[Shevek]

Its not really the same as typical AoO though since there is no such thing as a threatened area in PoE. In other words, you can still move freely unless an enemy actively engages you. In 3E, enemies get AoOs even if they arent focused on you so long as you move within 5 feet of them.

The system feels alright once you get the hang of it though I do think that there should be a few more ways to break engagement and that they should continue to improve visual feedback.

 

[Kem0sabe]

I think you can make a frontline cipher but you would have to use skills constantly to up his deflection and dt. Might make and interesting frontline debuffer (maybe with a pike or quarterstaff for reach). Very high stat requirements though. I mean, he would need every stat to be decent - no dump stats. Not sure how well that would work.

Its much easier to just give them a bow.

Challenge accepted

Spoiler

 

[Athelas]

You'll want to build up Focus with your Cipher as fast as possible, so Perception (accuracy) seems like a sensible attribute to invest in (of course, it's a good stat to invest in for any class). Though I'm not sure if you get a different amount of Focus point depending on whether you score a graze, a hit or a crit.

Its not really the same as typical AoO

Yeah, it's much worse.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

http://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/282794/Indie Calendar Finale Part One - Pillars of Eternity/

I once worked on a project where I learned the release date by seeing it in a trailer that the publisher put out

Which game was it?

 

[Shevek]

Athelas
Nah, not really

 

[Athelas]

Athelas
Nah, not really

They are. Attacks of opportunity in say NWN2 have no animation, are normal attacks and are restricted to one per round. Meanwhile in PoE, disengagement attacks are free of recovery time, have increased accuracy (and therefore a bigger chance of being a crit) and stop your movement and play an animation (giving the enemy the opportunity to re-engage you again).

 

[Shevek]

Naw, they limited them (sorta, if you break engagement, they cant reengage right away) and theres plenty of ways to debuff the accuracy of engagement attacks (talents, items, songs, auras, etc). In the new bb, a character has a cloak that gives 15 deflection vs engagement attacks. The animation thing isnt a big deal.

Edit: Again, adding a few more ways to break engagement might be nice and improving visual fedback would be good. But the system itself is ok and getting better.

 

[Duraframe300]

Which game was it?

To be honest, not sure

Could be Alpha Protocol (though he only did a little work on that).

 

[tuluse]

They are. Attacks of opportunity in say NWN2 have no animation, are normal attacks and are restricted to one per round. Meanwhile in PoE, disengagement attacks are free of recovery time, have increased accuracy (and therefore a bigger chance of being a crit) and stop your movement and play an animation (giving the enemy the opportunity to re-engage you again).

This isn't worse than NWN2 run through a crowd and eat 17 AoOs at all. It's not good, but it's not that bad either.

 

[Hormalakh]

I thought this game was a IE-successor, not a NWN one. If I had known that I wouldn't have backed it.

 

[Semper]

This isn't worse than NWN2 run through a crowd and eat 17 AoOs at all.

tumble and spring attack are your friends. or, you know, don't run through a crowd.

 

[SCO]

This isn't worse than NWN2 run through a crowd and eat 17 AoOs at all. It's not good, but it's not that bad either.

NWN2 has a low level feat (the misnamed 'spring attack') that completely denies AoO for running.

 

[Shevek]

That low level feat required dex 13, bab4, and 2 feats (dodge and mobility). Maybe you should pitch a similar feat on the forums (with similar stat, level and talent requirements). Maybe something like needing Graceful Retreat, Fast Running, Dex of 13 and a level of 6 or 8 to qualify for it. Who knows, they may go for it.