Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Hormalakh]

you can set hotkeys up to 10. qwertyuiop, in reality.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't get it. Hotkeys is what you use for things you know by heart. Play through game once or twice first, learn those dozens of spells, then ask for hotkeys. Until then, you're probably going to be using the mouse anyway.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

I don't get it. Hotkeys is what you use for things you know by heart. Play through game once or twice first, learn those dozens of spells, then ask for hotkeys. Until then, you're probably going to be using the mouse anyway.

yes. basic UI features should be available only after you finished game seven two times

 

[SCO]

Goddamnit infinitron, could you not be the PoE/inExile/Larian uncle tom for once. This is the codex and it reflects badly on the community to have front page contributor not being wholly negative about something in every game.

 

[Zombra]

I don't get it. Hotkeys is what you use for things you know by heart. Play through game once or twice first, learn those dozens of spells, then ask for hotkeys. Until then, you're probably going to be using the mouse anyway.

Not sure if serious ...
Maybe I just learn faster than others?
Or maybe I just dislike having to drag a mouse pointer to a pretty onscreen button instead of pushing a key directly beneath my finger.
Maybe it's that I come from a time before the mouse dumbed down UIs everywhere. Honestly the only thing a mouse interface is truly superior for is first-person shooters. Maybe click-to-move. Entering commands? Fuck no.

 

[Jaesun]

So as soon as the game loads character creation, click on Male, game instantly quits.

This is a pretty damn quality version they released.

 

[Infinitron]

Maybe it's that I come from a time before the mouse dumbed down UIs everywhere. Honestly the only thing a mouse interface is truly superior for is first-person shooters. Maybe click-to-move. Entering commands? Fuck no.

Yeah, I figured it was some kind of an oldschool gamer thing. But oldschool RPGs weren't actually like that! They didn't give you 50 spells with a unique hotkey for each one and ask you to use them in real-time to boot. They used lists and menus and submenus for that sort of thing.

I don't know of many games where what you're asking for is a standard gameplay mode of control. RTSes, for instance, they won't have a unique hotkey for each unit's ability - there'll be a universal hotkey that activates "Special Ability 1", "Special Ability 2", etc, for all units. But that's not really practical in RPGs because you can have any permutation of spells and abilities on your characters.

 

[Sensuki]

I don't get it. Hotkeys is what you use for things you know by heart. Play through game once or twice first, learn those dozens of spells, then ask for hotkeys. Until then, you're probably going to be using the mouse anyway.

No that's not true. Might be if you only play RPGs, but if you play other games such as RTS/MOBA which require faster reaction, then you need to hotkey from day 1, basically. This habit translates to other games.

I don't know of many games where what you're asking for is a standard gameplay mode of control. RTSes, for instance, they won't have a unique hotkey for each unit's ability - there'll be a universal hotkey that activates "Special Ability 1", "Special Ability 2", etc, for all units. But that's not really practical in RPGs because you can have any permutation of spells and abilities on your characters.

Also not true, depends on the game. Many RTS games have unique hotkeys.

 

[Zombra]

So as soon as the game loads character creation, click on Male, game instantly quits.

They weren't prepared for the kind of awesome characters you would make! Tone it down.

Yeah, I figured it was some kind of an oldschool gamer thing. But oldschool RPGs weren't actually like that! They didn't give you 50 spells with a unique hotkey for each one and ask you to use them in real-time to boot. They used lists and menus and submenus for that sort of thing.

Correct. They used menus ... with hotkey navigation. Look at Wasteland. Use > Skill > 2) Picklock > (Direction key) I can type those four keys much faster than I can visually locate a mouse cursor, then drag it down to the bottom of my screen to click the Picklock Icon, and then drag it back up to click again on a locked door in the game field. (And skills and items in Wasteland were ordered procedurally as well (Skill #2 wasn't Picklock for every character.))

I'll concede that there may be mouse ninjas out there with sensitivity set to max whose input efficiency approaches that of decent typists, but for a person who knows what they are doing, keyboard is always going to be more efficient and effective for high-signal digital input.

 

[Hormalakh]

anyone play with the new engagement mechanic? I'm currently not able to play the game (christmas time and have to spend time with family, so no video games for now) so I'd like to know how the "josh sawyer AWESUM mechanic fixin" went.

I'm thinking it didn't make much of a difference, but it'd be nice to hear.

 

[Athelas]

Correct. They used menus ... with hotkey navigation. Look at Wasteland. Use > Skill > 2) Picklock > (Direction key) I can type those four keys much faster than I can visually locate a mouse cursor, then drag it down to the bottom of my screen to click the Picklock Icon, and then drag it back up to click again on a locked door in the game field. (And skills and items in Wasteland were ordered procedurally as well (Skill #2 wasn't Picklock for every character.))

Lockpicking/trap disarming is done automatically if you click on the locked thing/trap. If you have multiple characters selected, it automatically lets the character with the highest Mechanics skill do it.

anyone play with the new engagement mechanic? I'm currently not able to play the game (christmas time and have to spend time with family, so no video games for now) so I'd like to know how the "josh sawyer AWESUM mechanic fixin" went.

I'm thinking it didn't make much of a difference, but it'd be nice to hear.

Still awful, nothing new there.

 

[Infinitron]

(Skill #2 wasn't Picklock for every character.))

Well, in that case, the hotkey wasn't unique.

I can understand wanting a per-character onscreen configurable NWN-style hotbar for those spells and abilities that you use a lot - those work better because they visually display the hotkey on screen, reminding you of it at all times, plus there usually aren't that many spells and abilities assigned to them. Mod it in if you want, but you won't get that by default - it's not the Infinity Engine way, I'm afraid.

But wanting to memorize a unique hotkey for every spell in the game GLOBALLY, irrespective of character - I mean, what is this, a video game or vim?

 

[Zombra]

Anyway, it's not my intention to convert mouse enthusiasts to a keyboard preference lifestyle. BUT I think it is stupid when PC-only games are developed with UI systems that ignore the power of the keyboard and restrict me to shitty Candyland controls. I want to fight beetles and wolves, not the UI.

 

[Roguey]

this has prolly been asked but is this a game thats friendly to the lbgt comunnity

i believe it is.

Vegetarian blts ftw

Ive come to the conclusion that this game is going to solve everything i cant stand about the classic ie rpg series so ive been insanely excited about it for the past month and you better not fuck it up rope kid

It definitely will.

*launch day comes. Obsidian bullets fly from screens across the worlds into the heads of classic ie rpg fans* problem solved

Yesssssssssssssssssssssssss.

 

[Hormalakh]

I can understand wanting a per-character onscreen configurable NWN-style hotbar for those spells and abilities that you use a lot - those work better because they visually display the hotkey on screen, reminding you of it at all times. Mod it in if you want, but you won't get that by default - it's not the Infinity Engine way, I'm afraid.

LOL. Not the IE way? Uhhh both BGs had a otbar that had hotkeys associated with it. You could set up specific spells, weapons with hotkeys. lolololololololl

 

[Zombra]

Well, in that case, the hotkey wasn't unique.

I never said anything about 'unique' hotkeys

But wanting to memorize a unique hotkey for every spell in the game GLOBALLY, irrespective of character - I mean, what is this, a video game or vim?

I don't want that. I want a hotkey system I can use to activate abilities so I'm not shackled to a mouse. Whether that's unique per-ability hotkeys as you suggest, or a quick access menu system, or even a simple per-character hotbar like World of Freakin Warcraft (1-0, Shift+1-Shift+0, CTRL+1-CTRL+0, 30 abilities ordered however I want at a maximum of 2 button presses per ability, not hard) I don't care. Mouse is great for analog input, but there's no reason ability activation should be tied to an analog device. I'm picking something off a list - why can't I press a key for it?

 

[Hormalakh]

Anyway, it's not my intention to convert mouse enthusiasts to a keyboard preference lifestyle. BUT I think it is stupid when PC-only games are developed with UI systems that ignore the power of the keyboard and restrict me to shitty Candyland controls. I want to fight beetles and wolves, not the UI.

i've been bitching about hotkeys since day fucking 2. they didn't get to where i expected, but it's better than nothing.
also, you will be fighting the ui in this game. there is no sense of design when it came to that department...

 

[Infinitron]

LOL. Not the IE way? Uhhh both BGs had a otbar that had hotkeys associated with it. You could set up specific spells, weapons with hotkeys. lolololololololl

Those were fairly limited. I'm talking about this kind of hotbar:

I never said anything about 'unique' hotkeys

Well, fine. The thing is that in the classic (non-hotbar) IE-style interface, used up spells disappear, so with a naive implementation of hotkeys (as in, press N to select the Nth spell in your currently available spells list), the hotkey for picking a particular spell will be changing all the time as other spells in the list are used up and its relative position in the list changes. That's why I assumed you wanted unique/global hotkeys for spells.

 

[Athelas]

I'm guessing something more along the lines of:

 

[Zombra]

The thing is that in the classic (non-hotbar) IE-style interface, used up spells disappear, so with a naive implementation of hotkeys (as in, press N to select the Nth spell in your currently available spells list), the hotkey for picking a particular spell will be changing all the time as other spells in the list are used up and its relative position in the list changes.

That's no way to run a railroad. If I assign Magic Missile to 1 and Protection from Arrows to 2, and I use up my Magic Missiles, Protection From Arrows shouldn't reassign to 1. If IE did that, then it is dumb.

That's why I assumed you wanted unique/global hotkeys for spells.

Nah. Glad we could clear up that misunderstanding. With so many spells in the game, sounds like unique keys per spell would be a horrible solution. But it sounds like PoE is essentially menu-driven (select character, select ability from a list). Keyboard will work as well or better than a mouse. They are dumb if they don't enable it.

i've been bitching about hotkeys since day fucking 2. they didn't get to where i expected, but it's better than nothing.
also, you will be fighting the ui in this game. there is no sense of design when it came to that department...

At the risk of repeating myself ...

but thank you for fighting the good fight.

 

[Infinitron]

That's no way to run a railroad. If I assign Magic Missile to 1 and Protection from Arrows to 2, and I use up my Magic Missiles, Protection From Arrows shouldn't reassign to 1. If IE did that, then it is dumb.

I'm actually not sure what IE did, TBH. But it did also offer unique/global hotkeys, as seen in Athelas' GIF. For advanced players, presumably - you can see that they weren't bound by default.

 

[Zombra]

I'm actually not sure what IE did, TBH. But it did also offer unique/global hotkeys, as seen in Athelas' GIF. For advanced players, presumably - you can see that they weren't bound by default.

Yeah, that's crazy. I would never use that. That implementation completely wastes the power of the keyboard.

Lockpicking/trap disarming is done automatically if you click on the locked thing/trap. If you have multiple characters selected, it automatically lets the character with the highest Mechanics skill do it.

I'm into it, but in that case you're not really selecting the character or the skill, are you? It's nice that that's automated, but it's still not more efficient than the keyboard equivalent ... tapping a single directional key to bump your group into the door (and then letting the game do the automatic selection). Dragging a cursor and clicking is always going to be slower than simply tapping a key, for anyone who knows how to type. Then again this brings the analog question of moving your group to the door into the equation, and as I said, click-to-move is easier than keyboard movement in a game designed like this, so I concede that.

Basically what they did is reduce the number of inputs required from the player, which is good, but they are still not allowing the player the most powerful method of entering input.

And for choosing abilities from a list, short or long, I still say: keyboard keyboard keyboard.

 

[throwaway]

In fact, since the IE games had them, it would be INEXCUSABLE and in very bad practice not to have them.

Are you telling me I could have shut Minsc up?!

 

[Sensuki]

Jaesun, I saw your bug report about the crash - Kickstarter Unity games have all had problems on 32-bit machines AFAIK. You have a 64-bit processor, so if you upgrade to Win7 64 then you likely won't experience any issues.

 

[Jaesun]

Jaesun, I saw your bug report about the crash - Kickstarter Unity games have all had problems on 32-bit machines AFAIK. You have a 64-bit processor, so if you upgrade to Win7 64 then you likely won't experience any issues.

I only have a 32 bit Windows 7 Machine. The other builds I played worked? :/