Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[leferd]

Oh, what's the deal with Merchant gold?

Looks like others are completing the game now

Plate is inherently better than other armors but it has a higher base cost and is found later in the game. You don't find suits of plate until you are already finding Fine suits of other armor. Fine plate doesn't appear until around the time you find Exceptional suits of armor.

In Nick Carver's recent full progression, I think he had two characters in modded unique brigandine at the end of the game.

As a QA, you'd think he'd be one of the main guys who'd routinely go through full playthroughs, no? Or have they not been doing that at all?

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

You don't find suits of plate until you are already finding Fine suits of other armor. Fine plate doesn't appear until around the time you find Exceptional suits of armor.
You are effectively always finding suits of plate one quality tier lower than equivalent non-plate armor.

It's good to know that even the armour we find is perfectly balanced

 

[Grunker]

Plate is inherently better than other armors but it has a higher base cost and is found later in the game. You don't find suits of plate until you are already finding Fine suits of other armor. Fine plate doesn't appear until around the time you find Exceptional suits of armor.

Wow, that sounds like major ass.

 

[Infinitron]

Plate is inherently better than other armors and balanced only by its limited availability? Hey grognards, where's your applause? IIRC we had a huge discusssion about this a while back and this was the design suggested by those who were against outright balance between all armor types.

It's not that different from what BG1 did, though, especially for field plate. For regular plate, you simply couldn't afford to fully equip your party with it until you'd done some adventuring. It was nice to have to make do with leather and chain for a while. That feeling of armor progression over the course of a long journey, instead of starting right away with plate.

 

[veevoir]

Plate is inherently better than other armors and balanced only by its limited availability? Hey grognards, where's your applause? IIRC we had a huge discusssion about this a while back and this was the design suggested by those who were against outright balance between all armor types.

But if it becomes available at the point all other armors are at the level.. then what is the point? Especially considering armor reduces speed, so you either take (example out of ass) superb mega chainmail with the same DR as a fine plate but better recovery speed.. or a fine plate, because they just became available.

Scarcity != availability after X hours in the game.

It's not that different from what BG1 did, though, especially for field plate. For regular plate, you simply couldn't afford to fully equip your party with it until you'd done some adventuring.

But it was there, taunting you, waiting to be bought. Unless I misunderstood what "finding later in game" means.

 

[Ellef]

It isn't rarity if it simply doesn't exist until you're at a certain level. It's just equipment being level scaled so we can have our carefully constructed balanced fun with nothing unexpected happening.

Plus Baldurs gate has ankheg armour and shells that can be made into armour, plus fullplate for sale in Beregost. It's rare, but it's not held from you until it's absolutely no more powerful than anything else you can find.

 

[Grunker]

Plate is inherently better than other armors and balanced only by its limited availability? Hey grognards, where's your applause? IIRC we had a huge discusssion about this a while back and this was the design suggested by those who were against outright balance between all armor types.

It's not that different from what BG1 did, though, especially for field plate. For regular plate, you simply couldn't afford to fully equip your party with it until you'd done some adventuring. It was nice to have to make do with leather and chain for a while. That feeling of armor progression over the course of a long journey, instead of starting right away with plate.

You seem to fail to identify the problem. The issue is not that one armor type is strictly better (though that's pretty boring), but the description of linear loot-type advancement. Sounds like Skyrim/4th edition: "I can wait to open the next chest to find an item perfectly suited to my level, it's even labeled in tiers so I don't have to think!"

 

[Infinitron]

You seem to fail to identify the problem. The issue is not that one armor type is strictly better (though that's pretty boring), but the description of linear loot-type advancement. Sounds like Skyrim/4th edition: "I can wait to open the next chest to find an item perfectly suited to my level, it's even labeled in tiers so I don't have to think!"

It's not about "level". It's about reaching a certain point in the game's story. You might as well complain that you can't find a Long Sword +2 at the beginning of the game. You'll find it...later.

Probably at the early stages of the game you're only in small villages whose blacksmiths don't have access to plate armor.

 

[Grunker]

You seem to fail to identify the problem. The issue is not that one armor type is strictly better (though that's pretty boring), but the description of linear loot-type advancement. Sounds like Skyrim/4th edition: "I can wait to open the next chest to find an item perfectly suited to my level, it's even labeled in tiers so I don't have to think!"

You might as well complain that you can't find a Long Sword +5 at the beginning of the game..

No, that's not what he's describing. He's describing only finding +1, then +2, then +3 and so on. He's describing a carefully tiered loot list. Both BGs were open enough that the loot you could find at any given point in the story had a range, not a strict adherence.

Like, from the beginning of BG the range was leather - half-plate.

 

[Ellef]

Chapter 1: only +1 weapons can be found
Chapter 2: only +2 weapons can be found
Chapter 3: only +3 weapons can be found + plate armour and fine chain mail

Sounds like such a fun 'rarity' system.

 

[Infinitron]

No, that's not what he's describing. He's describing only finding +1, then +2, then +3 and so on.

This is actually how Baldur's Gate worked for a typical playthrough.

But that's not what he's describing, since he only mentioned the transition from leather/chain to plate.

To me, "tiered design" is something like Dragon Age, where over the course of the game your fighter goes from Tier 1 plate to Tier 7 plate and your thief goes to from Tier 1 leather to Tier 7 leather.

Having the transition from leather/chain to plate be a major milestone in the game is actually pretty oldschool.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Plate is for grognards anyway. Next they'll be suggesting weight limits and movement-restricting plate only effective when worn by trained warriors. Like back in the 90s . Padded armour is what the cool kids are wearing these days.

Padded armor suffers even worse in most RPGs: in many games, there are literally no worse options than padded. The suits are often aesthetically ugly and mechanically awful—the quintessence of a pure RPG trash option—and if players are forced to wear padded armor at the game's opening, they'll gladly ditch it as soon as anything else becomes available. In Pillars of Eternity, padded armor actually offers reasonably good protection. It can easily be argued that our padded armor is more protective than is realistic, but the first goal is not verisimilitude, but justifying the player's interest.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Plate is inherently better than other armors and balanced only by its limited availability? Hey grognards, where's your applause? IIRC we had a huge discusssion about this a while back and this was the design suggested by those who were against outright balance between all armor types.

It's not that different from what BG1 did, though, especially for field plate. For regular plate, you simply couldn't afford to fully equip your party with it until you'd done some adventuring. It was nice to have to make do with leather and chain for a while. That feeling of armor progression over the course of a long journey, instead of starting right away with plate.

It is very different from what BG1 did. Ignoring the pixel hunting "secrets" (ring of wizardry, ring of protection, ankheg plate) you can take a plate armor from flaming fist (one south from Beregost and the one chasing Viconia can be dealt with no party reputaton loss IIRC) or buy it in Nashkel, you can get the second best longsword in the game by killing Greywolf (very early in the game), you can buy a full plate (and other goodies like Dagger of Venom and Crossbow of speed) in Beregost smithy as soon as you have money, get an Ankheg armor made as soon as you kill some ankhegs, many of the other magic items you find by exploring the wilderness etc.

BG has very few plot/area gated items, it doesn't have a boring ass ultra linear item progression, nor it has crafting for you to make equivalents to "unique" items.

Also, grog is becoming a meaningless term, it devolved into "I don't agree with every shit Josh comes up with".

 

[Grunker]

No, that's not what he's describing. He's describing only finding +1, then +2, then +3 and so on.

This is actually how Baldur's Gate worked for a typical playthrough.

I still have my hand-written notes from my childhood. My first magic sword is after defeating Greywolf and getting his +2 cold damage sword. This isn't that far of a stretch either, because it means I pretty much went with what the game told me to do and started with the mines.

To me, "tiered design" is something like Dragon Age, where over the course of the game your fighter goes from Tier 1 plate to Tier 7 plate and your thief goes to from Tier 1 leather to Tier 7 leather.

This is pretty much how I'm reading his comment.

 

[Infinitron]

It is very different from what BG1 did. Ignoring the pixel hunting "secrets" (ring of wizardry, ring of protection, ankheg plate) you can take a plate armor from flaming fist (one south from Beregost and the one chasing Viconia can be dealt with no party reputaton loss IIRC) or buy it in Nashkel, you can get the second best longsword in the game by killing Greywolf (very early in the game), you can buy a full plate (and other goodies like Dagger of Venom and Crossbow of speed) in Beregost smithy as soon as you have money, get an Ankheg armor made as soon as you kill some ankhegs, many of the other magic items you find by exploring the wilderness etc.

BG has very few plot/area gated items, it doesn't have a boring ass ultra linear item progression, nor it has crafting for you to make equivalents to "unique" items.

Well, PoE isn't going to be as open world as BG. But we are basically arguing about labels here, though.

So plate armor is "late game equipment" in PoE (possibly not actually "late" - I wouldn't be surprised if what Josh means is that you only get access to it later in the game's first act, same as how you don't get a full six man party until you've progressed a bit in the game's story).

But between leather and plate is a whole range of other armors: http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Armor

Just imagine that Brigandine is equivalent to BG's Plate, and PoE's Plate is equivalent to BG's Field Plate. So instead of getting a suit of plate off the Flaming Fist guy, you get a suit of Brigandine off the nobleman's guard in Dyrford, or something.

Also, grog is becoming a meaningless term, it devolved into "I don't agree with every shit Josh comes up with".

It seems pretty appropriate in this case, though. Wanting things that are inherently better than other things - isn't that the essence of the anti-balance grognard.

 

[Grunker]

@ZaborTeNej:

See this is why you're the grog and I'm just wary:

it doesn't have a boring ass ultra linear item progression,

How in the fuck can you conclude that because the basic items may be tiered, the entire game has boring item progression? From the different keywords we know exist, it sounds a far cry from the auto-selection of DA everything-is-tiered.

We're just discussing base items here, not enchants.

Not so meaningless of a term after all

 

[ZagorTeNej]

@ZaborTeNej:

See this is why you're the grog and I'm just wary:

I'm fine with being a grog. I certainly prefer old-school design compared to modern pampering.

How in the fuck can you conclude that because the basic items may be tiered, the entire game has boring item progression? From the different keywords we know exist, it sounds a far cry from the auto-selection of DA everything-is-tiered.

Do I have to add IMO or it seems before every statement? Despite how I worded it, this is an estimation (I obviously can't know for sure until the full game comes out) that is based on this Sawyer's statement and what I think about (worse aspects) of Sawyer's design philosophy.

We're just discussing base items here, not enchants.

Enchants is my other major grip with itemization so for me It's appropriate to mention it in this context. Linear item progression + enchant system (that will IMO devalue unique items) = boring itemization.

 

[Grunker]

Enchants is my other major grip with itemization so for me It's appropriate to mention it in this context. Linear item progression + enchant system (that will IMO devalue unique items) = boring itemization.

I wasn't talking about crafting, which as I understand it is done correctly (i.e. the KotOR2 way, which supplements the existing systems instead of replacing them). I'm talking about the non-linearity in the way enchantments work, that choosing between different magic items is a choice (strategic) and not a simple problem (which is strictly better?).

So when you conclude from a questionable base design that loot overall may suck, I think it's a stretch. Of course it's just your opinion, everything we say here is. The point is I think your opinion is an overreaction to the knowledge we have so far about itemization.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Well, PoE isn't going to be as open world as BG. But we are basically arguing about labels here, though.

It will still be less linear than IWD or something. BG had some plot gated areas but smartly leaved enough powerful items that you can find by exploration in areas that are available pretty early (as soon as you leave Candlekeep).

So plate armor is "late game equipment" in PoE (possibly not actually "late" - I wouldn't be surprised if what Josh means is that you only get access to it later in the game's first act, same as how you don't get a full six man party until you've progressed a bit in the game's story).

But between leather and plate is a whole range of other armors: http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Armor

Just imagine that Brigandine is equivalent to BG's Plate, and PoE's Plate is equivalent to BG's Field Plate. So instead of getting a suit of plate off the Flaming Fist guy, you get a suit of Brigandine off the nobleman's guard in Dyrford, or something.

It seems pretty appropriate in this case, though. Wanting things that are inherently better than other things - isn't that the essence of the anti-balance grognard.

You don't get it, by the nature of it being an RPG game there will be item progression and some items will be better than others. What I don't like is having them artificially not available to me (because I hadn't progressed the main plot enough). I'm fine with having obstacles in the vein of gold, tough enemy guard, puzzle etc. between me and powerful items/higher item tiers.

 

[Infinitron]

You don't get it, by the nature of it being an RPG game there will be item progression and some items will be better than others. What I don't like is having them artificially not available to me (because I hadn't progressed the main plot enough). I'm fine with having obstacles in the vein of gold, tough enemy guard, puzzle etc. between me and powerful items/higher item tiers.

I don't think that's "artificial", though. Especially if justified by simulationist(!) reasons - you don't get plate armor in the early game because the blacksmith in the rustic tutorial village you start in doesn't have any.

Would it be a disaster in terms of balance to have a single suit of plate available straight off in the early game, guarded by a very difficult encounter or something? Probably not, but it's also not a disaster if it's not there, or if it's a suit of brigandine instead.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I wasn't talking about crafting, which as I understand it is done correctly (i.e. the KotOR2 way, which supplements the existing systems instead of replacing them). I'm talking about the non-linearity in the way enchantments work, that choosing between different magic items is a choice (strategic) and not a simple problem (which is strictly better?).

I don't like a crafting system in which my party can make weapons that are comparable in power to unique ones with detailed history I find. While I could make many powerful items in KOTOR2 and modify unique ones I found, I still couldn't make lightsaber crystals for example, I had to find them.

So when you conclude from a questionable base design that loot overall may suck, I think it's a stretch. Of course it's just your opinion, everything we say here is. The point is I think your opinion is an overreaction to the knowledge we have so far about itemization.

I will be glad if I'm wrong in this case. POE turning out better than I think in any aspect>>>>>>>>me being right in an internet discussion on a random forum.

 

[Lord Andre]

Plate of x level > other armor of x level
Plate of x-1 level = other armor of x level
At any time you will only have available Plate of x-1 level and other armor of x level.

The choice becomes purely cosmetic. Balance. No fun allowed. Fanboys suck etc.

 

[Infinitron]

Plate of x-1 level = other armor of x level

No, because there are other differences between armor types besides DT.

 

[Lord Andre]

Plate of x-1 level = other armor of x level

No, because there are other differences between armor types besides DT.

You're probably right but someone has to play devil's grog's advocate.

 

[Sensuki]

From Josh's latest statements, we can discern that there is content gated until you reach Defiance Bay -> The beginning of Chapter 2. From there you can pretty much go anywhere except Twin Elms and the Twin Elms related areas. That's my understanding anyway.

It doesn't look like Act 1 will be that long either, from the looks of it.

edit: Missed this one

In the end, enchanting costs will likely not be linear, so it will be more expensive (and limiting) to actually enchant plate since it is considered inherently "Fine". If you're not enchanting, it's not really an issue at all because you will never find Superb plate but there are several suits of Superb non-plate armor. You are effectively always finding suits of plate one quality tier lower than equivalent non-plate armor.