Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[veevoir]

Plate of x-1 level = other armor of x level

No, because there are other differences between armor types besides DT.

So basically because of recovery speed reduction by armor:

Plate of x-1 level < other armor of x level. And that armor is exactly Brigandine

Therefore plate = cosmetic choice.

 

[Infinitron]

So basically because of recovery speed reduction by armor:

No, not just that.

Plate:

Elemental DT Burn: 12
Freeze: 12
Shock: 6
Corrode: 12
Slash: 18
Pierce: 12
Crush: 12

Brigandine:

Elemental DT Burn: 10
Freeze: 10
Shock: 8
Corrode: 8
Slash: 15
Pierce: 10
Crush: 10

And that's not even going into all the unique armors of each type, each of which has its own qualities.

Sensuki, what effects do the "Fine", "Exceptional", "Superb", etc, modifiers have on these modifiers?

 

[Sensuki]

There's no DR anymore mate. Okay well DT is now DR. There's no percentile reduction anymore. Fine gives +2 DR, Exceptional gives +4 and Superb gives +6(?) [haven't seen a superb set of armor yet]

But yeah Plate is pretty much "lol u trying to hurt me with a dagger? ha ha ha"

 

[veevoir]

Fine has +2DT that also adds to elemental DT, so Fine Brigandine is a minor alteration to plate. Don't know what effect "Fine" has on DR though. If it also increases - (see Sensuki's post) my point stands - brigandine vs plate is cosmetic choice.
Up to the point when "Superb" plate (or whatever highest level of craftmanship is) shows up, as it will have no opposition. If there exists one, you know, becuase balance

And that's not even going into all the unique armors of each type, each of which has its own qualities.

But unique armors, just by the valor of being unique, are pretty hard to compare to anything else.

EDIT: disclaimer - I have nothing against cosmetic alterations. I love cosmetic alterations. RPGs are first and foremost barbie and ken simulators.

 

[Infinitron]

my point stands - brigandine vs plate is cosmetic choice.

Nope. Take a look a closer look at the damage type-specific DTs.

Fine Brigandine still isn't as good at stopping Slash attacks than regular Plate is. And it's also better across the board vs Shock.

 

[Sensuki]

my point stands - brigandine vs plate is cosmetic choice.

It's not. Plate is better than Fine Brigandine IMO, unless you're taking shock damage. It has better DTs vs stuff across the board even though the base DT is the same. That may not be enough of a difference for you however.

 

[veevoir]

I'll give you that. There is 1 point of difference (counting +2 from fine). I guess shock/corrode would make better examples (plate shock DT 6/corrode DT 12, fine brigandine DT 10/DT 10). So minor differences. It actually makes fine brigandine look better

It's not. Plate is better than Fine Brigandine IMO, unless you're taking shock damage. It has better DTs vs stuff across the board even though the base DT is the same. That may not be enough of a difference for you however.

Does "Fine" increase only basic DT or all DTs by +2?
If no (only basic) - I am wrong (and what the hell the basic DT is used for, then? unspecified,non-elemental magic?).
If yes - see above - fine brigandine would seem to be better.

 

[Sensuki]

Crafting and Enchanting is one area of the game I really have not tested. I've crafted one item, and I think I've added one enchantment and that's it. Will definitely do some more mucking around with that in the future before release.

edit: I'm not actually sure that fine changes anything but the base DT, someone who is at home now should check it out (I'm not at home).

 

[veevoir]

This wiki site would indicate that all elemental/dmg type resists are a simple modifier of base DT. So higher crafting tiers (fine etc.) should increase all resistances, bringing brigandine slashing to 17 etc., see my previous post

Of course the site might be outdated and the days of my internet glory when I was Right about stuff will be over.

 

[Infinitron]

When stuff is introduced to people like this before a game is released, I guess they expect to see, like, EXTREEM variability, because "otherwise why is it even being shown to us if it's so boring?".

But we're talking mundane pieces of equipment here. Standard, mass-produced, non-magical, buy it in a store. How different from each other can they possibly be and still leave room for the unique magical variants to really shine?

Mundane equipment, mundane variations. But they can still make a difference for min-maxers.

 

[veevoir]

What does one stat matter?

When stuff is introduced to people like this before a game is released, I guess they expect to see, like, EXTREEM variability, because "otherwise why is it even being shown to us if it's so boring?".

But that is the whole point here - the variability of Pillars armors is ok out of the box. They have their differences, they also have their penalties. Choice is to be made, as it stands currently if I got Brigandine (normal) or plate to choose from I would consider it carefully (we don't know the action speed penalty for the former one, but I imagine there is a difference there).

Then why introduce plate later into the game at the point where it loses the uniqueness?

It's like playing a NFS game where you can keep upgrading a Golf cause that's what you got available..and by the time Porsches and Ferraris are unlocked you can (with minor differences) rival them without problems. It is the dreaded "tiered equipment issue" when items are introduced at the point where choice became irrelevant. And it is sure as hell I did not sign up for the Codex not to get all outrage-y about stuff like that!

 

[Athelas]

Plate is for grognards anyway. Next they'll be suggesting weight limits and movement-restricting plate only effective when worn by trained warriors. Like back in the 90s . Padded armour is what the cool kids are wearing these days.

Uh, you know armor as implemented in PoE is actually 'simulationist' (or certainly more simulationist than the IE games) in that someone with no/light armour attacks quicker than someone wearing heavier armour? Of course, this isn't necessarily a good thing for gameplay.

 

[Sensuki]

This wiki site would indicate that all elemental/dmg type resists are a simple modifier of base DT.

The wiki also has lots of out of date information.

Fire up the game and check it out (or if you're a lowly non-beta backer then ask someone else to. I would but I'm 200km from home.

 

[veevoir]

This wiki site would indicate that all elemental/dmg type resists are a simple modifier of base DT.

The wiki also has lots of out of date information.

Fire up the game and check it out (or if you're a lowly non-beta backer then ask someone else to. I would but I'm 200km from home.

Of course the site might be outdated and the days of my internet glory when I was Right about stuff will be over.

As a lowly non-BB scum I'll wait for someone curious enough to check, this matter of life and death must be settled.

 

[Infinitron]

where it loses the uniqueness?

Does it? As Sensuki said:

Plate is better than Fine Brigandine IMO, unless you're taking shock damage.

So you still have to "consider carefully" even then. Between regular plate and regular brigandine, there's probably really not much of a contest at all.

Now you might ask, why even introduce an equipment type later in the game, rather than simply, say, nerfing plate so you can have it from the beginning? The answer to that, I think, is that in classic RPGs, the transition from leather/chain to plate is often suis generis - not like any other equipment upgrade but a uniquely badass event that signifies the moment when your party has really "arrived" from a power level and economic standpoint. In the words of Minsc, full plate and packing steel! It's not at the level of finally getting power armor in Fallout, but the idea is similar.

This wiki site would indicate that all elemental/dmg type resists are a simple modifier of base DT.

The wiki also has lots of out of date information.

I am pretty sure they are, though. It seems very un-Sawyery to have a modifier that is inconsistently applied only to base DT and not the other thresholds.

 

[Sensuki]

It's like playing a NFS game where you can keep upgrading a Golf cause that's what you got available..and by the time Porsches and Ferraris are unlocked you can (with minor differences) rival them without problems.

Need For Speed Underground was such a fucking good game. I played the absolute shit out of that. Won heaps of LAN tournaments too - all race types, but especially drifting. They just don't make them like they used to.

I used a Mazda RX-7 for circuit, sprint and drag, and the Honda S2000 for drifting. Deliberately kept a save where I hadn't finished the game, but it was after the final mechanical upgrade so I could swap cars for multiplayer.

 

[veevoir]

So you still have to "consider carefully" even then. Between regular plate and regular brigandine, there's probably really not much of a contest at all.

There shouldn't be that much of a contest, unless you're looking for a higher action recovery rate. There usually is no contest when it comes to heavier armors, besides larger penalties (in some games also additional skills required).

Now you might ask, why even introduce an equipment type later in the game, rather than simply, say, nerfing plate so you can have it from the beginning? The answer to that, I think, is that in classic RPGs, the transition from leather/chain to plate is often suis generis - not like any other equipment upgrade but a uniquely badass event that signifies the moment when your party has really "arrived" from a power level and economic standpoint.

I'll gently ignore the nerf strawman and proceed:

Considering the bolded part in first quote + the second qoute, "upgrading to plate feeling badass". If that is the case - shouldn't a non-nerfed, ungodly expensive, badass plate be available from the (almost) beginning, just like in (for example) BG1? It is ultimately players choice to dump all their money into a single suit of plate and lack it for all the other stuff they need.

Late plate introduction, again, removes the very idea you've mentioned.

As I mention previously - I don't even mind more micro-customisation options that are pretty much cosmetic choices. But the grog in me hurts when plate is not going to givie all the good feelings that plate should.

 

[Athelas]

BG (...) doesn't have a boring ass ultra linear item progression

How are you defining 'item progression'? Almost all the 'unique' equipment in Baldur's Gate is a variant of +1, +2, etc., which is as linear and boring as you can get. It's always obvious which is the superior choice - the thing with the biggest numbers that your class can equip. Spiderbane and the Ankheg Shell are the only pieces of loot I remember from the game.

 

[Infinitron]

There shouldn't be that much of a contest, unless you're looking for a higher action recovery rate. There usually is no contest when it comes to heavier armors, besides larger penalties (in some games also additional skills required).

Welcome to Pillars of Eternity. In this game, there is a contest.

The higher action recovery rate is apparently not sufficient to make standard Brigandine competitive with standard Plate. Why? I guess speed just ain't that valuable for front line characters which are based on being slow and durable tanks anyway. Sensuki can tell you more!

I'll gently ignore the nerf strawman and proceed:

If the designers think that plate is inherently better than all other armor types, than if they want to introduce it earlier, from their perspective it probably requires a nerf.

Considering the bolded part in first quote + the second qoute, "upgrading to plate feeling badass". If that is the case - shouldn't a non-nerfed, ungodly expensive, badass plate be available from the (almost) beginning, just like in (for example) BG1? It is ultimately players choice to dump all their money into a single suit of plate and lack it for all the other stuff they need.

Maybe. I said above it that it wouldn't be a disaster, but it's also not a necessity.

Late plate introduction, again, removes the very idea you've mentioned.

Power armor is introduced late in Fallout. Still badass. And in New Vegas, by the time you get it, you probably all have sorts of cool medium armors that are competitive with it and come with all sorts of bonuses that you might not want to give up on, but it's still the higher tier equipment all around.

 

[Sensuki]

Spiderbane and the Ankheg Shell are the only pieces of loot I remember from the game.

Uhhh

I'm at a mate's place not looking anything up but here's 'cool gear' for BG1 not including TotSC that I remember

Spoiler

Long Sword +2: Varscona - +1 cold damage (which was a big deal, because it was like the only weapon in the game that did cold damage)
Bracers of Dexterity - awesome for a low Dex char
Gauntlets of Archery - awesome for your best archer
Gauntlets of Weapon Focus - good early gauntlets for best fighter, hand-me-down later on
Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise - best gauntlets for best fighter, if you find them
Short Sword +2 (found on a Hobgoblin in the Bassilus area, had a name like 'The Whistling Sword' or something) - best short sword for thief until last chapter
Short Sword +3 of Backstabbing - found in chapter 7, replace short sword +2
Boots of Stealth - good for thief
Cloak of Non-Detection - awesome for thief
Ring of Fire Protection - good against Fireball traps, always had on my main fighter
Cloak of the Wolf - not super useful, but novel
Staff Spear +2 - I *think* this was the best staff? (found in Chapter 7 IIRC)
Helm of Glory - my fav helmet
Helm of Balduran - great (best?) helmet
Cloak of Balduran - great cloak
Large Shield +1;+4 vs Missiles - best shield
Ankheg Plate - great early armor, and a good pass-me-down
Shadow Armor - best thief armor
Girdle of Piercing - good belt
Golden Girdle - good belt
Gauntlets of Ogre Power - great gauntlets
Girdle of Bluntness - good belt
Bastard Sword +1; +3 vs Shapeshifters - great vs greater dopplegangers
Spider's Bane - best 2her
Robe of the Good / Neutral / Evil Archmagi - essential for mage
Boots of Speed - nuff said
Boots of Avoidance - *awesome* for dodging arrows
Longtooth Dagger - best Dagger, Chapter 7
Dagger of Venom - novelty poison dagger
Long Bow of Marksmanship - best bow
Tamoko's Black Full Plate +1, if you kill her
Ring of Wizardry

There's more too. But good gear was *rare* in BG1, and finding it was special. Itemization in PE is going to be like an in between of Icewind Dale with HoW and BG2 - bucketloads and bucketloads of gear.

 

[Athelas]

I thought we were discussing different tiers of armor (and maybe weapons as well?). Sure, stuff like Boots of Speed and Gauntlets of Ogre is cool (and will probably be sorely missed in PoE), but that goes without saying, and it's not the sort of equipment you 'progress' in like you do with tiered equipment.

 

[Sensuki]

Okay, well BG1 didn't have many 'unique' armors, but finding a better suit of armor was rare and 'cool' IMO. For people who could wear Plate armor, every suit of magical plate or Full Plate was probably going to be used by a party member, unless you have heaps of non-plate wearers.

I usually didn't kill Tamoko so I usually had someone in Ankheg Armor, Full Plate and maybe Plate +1 by Chapter 7. In TotSC you had that gold Plate +3, I guess.

 

[Grotesque]

Plate is better than Fine Brigandine IMO, unless you're taking shock damage.

Full closed plate suits should render the player immune to shock as they act as a Farraday's cage.

 

[ushas]

There's no DR anymore mate. Okay well DT is now DR. There's no percentile reduction anymore. Fine gives +2 DR, Exceptional gives +4 and Superb gives +6(?) [haven't seen a superb set of armor yet]

Does "Fine" increase only basic DT or all DTs by +2?

edit: I'm not actually sure that fine changes anything but the base DT, someone who is at home now should check it out (I'm not at home).

Ok, didn't have much time to play, but at least I checked, what's already in a stash.

According to an item description, it's exactly as Sensuki said:
Fine: +2DR
Exceptional: +4DR
I don't have anything Superb as well, so we can use the temporary extrapolation +6DR

But despite of the confusing description, it effects all the types of damage reductions, doesn't it?

I have a Padded armor in 3 tiers of quality. The problem is, that there is inconsistency between the item description and on the character sheet info. So for comparison, I list the numbers from the character sheet as well, in the brackets below:

Normal Padded Armor:
DR: 4 (-)
Crush: 5 (-)
Pierce: 5 (-)
Burn: 3 (-)
Corrode: 3 (-)
Recovery speed: -20%

Fine Padded Armor:
DR: 6 (-)
Crush: 8 (7)
Pierce: 8 (7)
Burn: 5 (-)
Corrode: 5 (-)
Recovery speed: -20%
Fine: +2DR

Exceptional Padded Armor:
DR: 8 (-)
Crush: 10 (9)
Pierce: 10 (9)
Burn: 6 (7)
Corrode: 6 (7)
Recovery speed: -20%
Exceptional: +4DR

I would say the Char. sheet numbers look more logically, if the fine/exception upgrades are added to all DRs equally...

 

[Sensuki]

Attack yourself with some damage types to see which is the correct number.