Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Shevek]

Not sure if this has been posted:
How to Survive a Lightning Strike: http://youtu.be/eNxDgd3D_bU

 

[polo]

VERY new, i must say.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

I think any reasonable developer should sacrifice simulation for playability outside of..well simulation games.

I'd hardly call making metal armor weak against shock damage sacrificing simulation. It works because the player has a common-sensical understanding of which materials are generally most conducive to electricity and which aren't; this way, unlike with more gamist features of PoE like intelligence causing less interruptions, the player doesn't have to appropriate game-specific logic.

The faraday thing is more a question of whether simulation should move beyond common-sense towards science, which in my mind removes most of the advantages of a simulation approach to design unless it serves an educational purpose, because the player no longer has either game-logic or everyday logic to appeal to (though DraQ would probably disagree ).

 

[Infinitron]

I think any reasonable developer should sacrifice simulation for playability outside of..well simulation games.

I'd hardly call making metal armor weak against shock damage sacrificing simulation. It works because the player has a common-sensical understanding of which materials are generally most conducive to electricity and which aren't; this way, unlike with more gamist features of PoE like intelligence causing less interruptions, the player doesn't have to appropriate game-specific logic.

The faraday thing is more a question of whether simulation should move beyond common-sense towards science, which in my mind removes most of the advantages of a simulation approach to design unless it serves an educational purpose, because the player no longer has either game-logic or "real world" logic to appeal to (though DraQ would probably disagree ).

I think LF_Incline is agreeing with you

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

I mostly just wanted to goad DraQ into this thread

 

[Ellef]

I think any reasonable developer should sacrifice simulation for playability outside of..well simulation games.

I'd hardly call making metal armor weak against shock damage sacrificing simulation. It works because the player has a common-sensical understanding of which materials are generally most conducive to electricity and which aren't; this way, unlike with more gamist features of PoE like intelligence causing less interruptions, the player doesn't have to appropriate game-specific logic.

The faraday thing is more a question of whether simulation should move beyond common-sense towards science, which in my mind removes most of the advantages of a simulation approach to design unless it serves an educational purpose, because the player no longer has either game-logic or "real world" logic to appeal to (though DraQ would probably disagree ).

I think LF_Incline is agreeing with you

I was in the middle of a reply to say the same thing. If one metal armour has some scientific reason to make you immune to shock, then other armours need buffing or it becomes a false choice. Balance is annoying when it destroys gameplay choices by making every option equal, but it shouldn't be sacrificed for scientific realism.

 

[accismus]

I was in the middle of a reply to say the same thing. If one metal armour has some scientific reason to make you immune to shock, then other armours need buffing or it becomes a false choice. Balance is annoying when it destroys gameplay choices by making every option equal, but it shouldn't be sacrificed for scientific realism.

The argument wasn't for immunity. If you didn't notice, Josh has actually gone the other way, and made it weaker to shock. Not making it immune or resistant to shock for balance reasons is one thing, making it weak to shock is a different matter altogether.

...Making all metal armors weak against shock...

No, only plate is weak to shock. Chainmail etc. aren't.

 

[polo]

How does the physics behind that work? The lightning shocks the armor but does not affect the user which is in contact with the metal plates?
Serious question.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

No, only plate is weak to shock. Chainmail etc. aren't.

Well then that's just silly

 

[accismus]

How does the physics behind that work? The lightning shocks the armor but does not affect the user which is in contact with the metal plates?
Serious question.

Nobody really knows how lightning works, to be honest At the most basic level, metal is ~a million times more conductive than the human body, so it's a million times easier for the lightning to travel through the metal into the ground than through any part of the body at all - it's a safe channel for the lightning. You only get shocked if the current actually flows through parts of your body.

 

[Shevek]

polo
The vid i linked explained the physics (uses armor example). As far as contact with armor, i think under the armor you wear padding (arming cap, gameson, etc)

 

[polo]

polo
The vid i linked explained the physics (uses armor example). As far as contact with armor, i think under the armor you wear padding (arming cap, gameson, etc)

Will watch at home, i have no audio at work, ty.
Also accismus I thought of that, but i don't think all the metal plates in the armor are connected, also not sure does go all the way down to the ground right?

Anyways, having said that, i don't see how a metal armor could maximize the shock damage, other than the burning produced by the heated metal plates.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Are you really discussing how realistically PoE handles the properties of plate armor regarding sock damage?

And here I thought it was Sawyer who wanted to end fun...

 

[polo]

I don't really care about how PoE handles that stuff, im just curious about how it works in reality.
Plate armor being weak against shock damage doesn't break my immershion one bit tbh.

 

[accismus]

polo
I was referring to Shevek's video, actually - the suit of armour there is from head to toe. Even if it isn't, it would be covering the critical bits like your liver, heart and brain - the lightning will bypass those. And as for gaps in the armour, the current will pass through skin in those places to bridge the gap. That will cause (massive) skin burns, but only in the tiny areas where there is no metal. Contact with the armour shouldn't really cause current to flow through you. Lightning rods routinely run down tall buildings, but the people inside them don't get shocked.

 

[hiver]

I would relly, really like for everyone here to go into a Faraday cage... hit it with strong electricity and then touch any part of the cage.

Please do it.

 

[Grotesque]

Even if you are naked inside an armor suit, being hit by lightning will not cause injuries because the electrical charges only travel on the outside layer of the armor.
The demonstration of this phenomenon I learned a long time ago in faculty (and I forgot it) but I am certain of this fact.

Anyway, blame it on adra for all things that defy logic in this fictional universe.

 

[tdphys]

ARggg... Baited to join the codex by a physics argument...

I'm so weak.

The simplest way to square sawyer logic and physics is that the spell conjures a powerful cathode inside the target, with the anode appearing just outside the casters hands (see the emperor in starwars). Where do the electrons come from ? Who knows, It's magic, maybe some dimension door to a powerful lightning storm somewheres...

Thus metal armor conducts quicker, provides a nice burn, and is overall worse against such a spell.

Really, why doesn't the shock spell exit via the caster's body instead of the target?

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

ARggg... Baited to join the codex by a physics argument...

Jan 2017: "I came for the physics and stayed for the trannies"

 

[Rostere]

ARggg... Baited to join the codex by a physics argument...
The simplest way to square sawyer logic and physics is that the spell conjures a powerful cathode inside the target, with the anode appearing just outside the casters hands (see the emperor in starwars). Where do the electrons come from ? Who knows, It's magic, maybe some dimension door to a powerful lightning storm somewheres...

You might also need to add insulation to the caster so that the current would not just go through the ground and hurt the caster as well. Current only goes through the air if there's really no other way.

Anyway, an actual lightning strike might, like, partially melt a car antenna in the worst case, so I think that we can say for sure that smiths would be able to create full-plate armour which would make people pretty much immune to lightning.

The funny thing about plate resistance to lightning is really that the worst against lightning would be to have a long sword, or metal armour - preferably with spikes - on parts of your upper body. That would make you a living lightning rod, which would fry at least your legs. So while literal full plate would be useful (with metal plates in contact with each other from lightning shock impact point to the ground), half-plate would leave you vulnerable. Assuming the wizard can aim the lightning at you, that doesn't make a difference however.

TBH I think the best full plate armours should have lightning resistance, and the rest of the armours no lightning modifiers at all.

 

[tuluse]

D&D 3rd edition gives a +4 to hit with electrical attacks vs plate armor. Josh is just giving D&D fans what they want

 

[hiver]

Even if you are naked inside an armor suit, being hit by lightning will not cause injuries because the electrical charges only travel on the outside layer of the armor.

Please, please, pleeease demonstrate this yourself.

and make a video of it.

electrical charge travels only through the outside layer of metal...?

I think that we can say for sure that smiths would be able to create full-plate armor which would make people pretty much immune to lightning.

Pleeeease do a live demonstration of this idea!

The simplest way to square sawyer logic and physics

Its already squared.

D&D 3rd edition gives a +4 to hit with electrical attacks vs plate armor.

As it should.



Guise! i know how to do it! You dress only in plate armor or any completely metallic armor and push a finger into the electricity socket! (or anything metallic and thin enough to go into a socket that you would be holding with a metal gauntlet)


Pleeeeease, you would so make my day. Days even.

 

[ushas]

Yeah I'd believe the combat log. If the item descriptions are off - those are bugs, I'd report them if I were you.

A good point. However, so far I can play it only under wine and with steam running, which introduce another issues. So I'm better to postpone a bug reporting to the next beta.
If somebody with win/mac can duplicate the bug, it would be helpful.

 

[Grotesque]

You dress only in plate armor or any completely metallic armor and push a finger into the electricity socket!

Oh God, you are indeed an illiterate son of a bitch if you think that lightning (which is an electrostatic discharge) is the same thing as inserting a nail in the AC/DC socket.




6:25
"I'am in a Faraday cage. [...] I can touch the insides!"

 

[hiver]

I was hoping some of you would be that stupid. Preferably a walking hemorrhoid like you. And it is easier to find a socket then to catch lightning.

But thats only the start.

Next one would be for you to wear nothing but a full plate armor and go and catch a lightning. Please do it. I would love to see you reverted back to your natural state of a shitstain.

Go and prove how right you are.

Construct it anyway you want, as long as its all metal and go outside and catch a lightning.