Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[cannondwarf]

We must seize the means of game production

 

[Infinitron]

You guys are arguing above luj's level. As I suspected, his actual problems with PoE's system turn out to be banal and subjective:

Does combat in WM not have Endurance? Does it not have "per encounter" nonsense? Does it not have a gazillion of extraneous combat conditions? Does 1 point of Might still give +3% dmg and 1 point of Con +3% HP? This is a fucking peasant-level ruleset created by a delusional faggot

"AD&D didn't have per-encounter and percentages, MUH FEELZ"

The key tell: Repeated claims that PoE's ruleset is "cancerous" without mentioning specifics. Andhaira did the same thing, repeatedly saying that PoE's character system sucks, but ultimately the only specific complaint he was able to make about it is "I don't like how the characters can run quickly into melee". Lol.

 

[Lacrymas]

Why, yes, all those lovely Minsc & Boo shenanigans. And Jan Jansen turnip jokes. What delicious writing.

Good parties are retarded (sometimes literally in the case of Minsc) in both BGs (Aerie lol), that's why I only played with one once. However, the writing in BG1 is better than PoE. If we leave out the inconsistency of alternating between ye olde Englishe and modern one, for such a long game it's much more compact (the only lengthy bit of text is Sarevok's diary) and manages to set up the situation and the stakes quite well. The tone and motivations of the party and the framing of the adventure even changes depending on what companions and what rep you have. The side quests are given to you in just a few sentences, no lengthy lectures about the countryside and how we hate elves and did I mention this ring I want you to give to someone? All this causes BG to be much more playable as a result, it's just a joy to go through it. PoE is long because you stand there reading text, BG1 is long because it has stuff to do (although the move speed is kinda slow and content from some maps can be fused together).

Encounter design and AI in both BG1 and 2 with SCS is miles above what PoE can muster (haven't played TWM yet, but I have a feeling it won't be as good). The AI rips you to shreds in some battles even with the overpowered evil companions and only within the rules of the game. Waiting for SCS-like mod for PoE. I somehow want to comment on character building, but since I haven't played PoE since 1.0 my info is outdated. Character building in the IE games stop at multi/dual-classing potential and choice of proficiencies, so PoE was "better" in that regard even in 1.0, but PoE was never meant to take AD&D as a template, but 3E, so if we compare it to 3E D&D leaves it in the dust again.

 

[Haplo]

3E DnD character building only leaves PoE in the dust if you factor in multi-classing and Prestige Classes. If you look at base classes, PoE stands firm. Of course it all depends how much expansion material you want to include and which feats. DnD did have a bit of a headstart in system building.

 

[Sizzle]

Good parties are retarded (sometimes literally in the case of Minsc) in both BGs (Aerie lol), that's why I only played with one once. However, the writing in BG1 is better than PoE. If we leave out the inconsistency of alternating between ye olde englishe and modern one, for such a long game it's much more compact (the only lengthy bit of text is Sarevok's diary) and manages to set up the situation and the stakes quite well. The tone and motivations of the party and the framing of the adventure even changes depending on what companions and what rep you have. All this causes BG to be much more playable as a result, it's just a joy to go through it. PoE is long because you stand there reading text, BG1 is long because it has stuff to do (although the move speed is kinda slow and content from some maps can be fused together).

The writing in BG1 is serviceable and effective, but it never really rises to the levels of good. On the other hand - it's also never really bad. It takes a tried and true, simple premise and runs with it, taking care not to go overboard.

PoE has some really good writing, but it also has a lot of terrible, overwritten descriptions and lengthy, unedited dialogue.

Encounter design and AI in both BG1 and 2 with SCS is miles above what PoE can muster (haven't played TWM yet, but I have a feeling it won't be as good).

Agreed, though you really should play it with TWM sometime - to see how they've improved.

Character building in the IE games stop at multi/dual-classing potential and choice of proficiencies, so PoE was "better" in that regard even in 1.0, but PoE was never meant to take AD&D as a template, but 3E, so if we compare it to 3E D&D leaves it in the dust again.

PoE also has better attributes (if we disregard the entire "Mighty Wizard" thing) than the IE games.

But 3E always got on my nerves because it was so gamey - talking levels of random classes willy-nilly, not because of any RP reasons, but strictly because of overall power levels.

 

[Lacrymas]

but it never really rises to the levels of good.

Durlag's Tower is good. It shows the aftermath of lifelong adventuring, how it puts a target on Durlag and his family, their eventual clandestine killing and replacement with doppelgangers and his descent into madness and obsession with safety, and how, in the end, he blames himself for all of it. Which is reflected in the design of the dungeon. The only bad part is how half of the last adventuring party to go through is still there and even managed to get to the demon knight, all the while the traps and puzzles are still operational.

But 3E always got on my nerves because it was so gamey - talking levels of random classes willy-nilly, not because of any RP reasons, but strictly because of overall power levels.

Eh, I guess it's a bit gamey, but it's not like going Fighter/Mage/Thief, Berserker/Mage or Kensai/Mage isn't.

 

[Sizzle]

but it never really rises to the levels of good.

Durlag's Tower is good. It shows the aftermath of lifelong adventuring, how it puts a target on Durlag and his family, their eventual clandestine killing and replacement with doppelgangers and his descent into madness and obsession with safety. Which is reflected in the design of the dungeon. The only bad part is how half of the last adventuring party to go through is still there and even managed to get to the demon knight, all the while the traps and puzzles are still operational.

I'll have to replay ToTSC one of these days, I've only played through it once, a long time ago.

But 3E always got on my nerves because it was so gamey - talking levels of random classes willy-nilly, not because of any RP reasons, but strictly because of overall power levels.

Eh, I guess it's a bit gamey, but it's not like going Fighter/Mage/Thief, Berserker/Mage or Kensai/Mage isn't.

Yeah, but you know what I mean. A Kensai/Mage may be played just for the sake of it being OP, but it still makes more RP sense than a, say, Paladin 10/Bard 5/Ranger 3/Swashbuckler 2 combo (not to mention all the Prestige Classes requirements that people end up taking just so they can make a deliberately OP char.).

I have no problem with this in theory, but it bugs me when, for example, you have a Lawful Good character with high Charisma, and not taking two Paladin levels for the huge bonuses to saving throws is just intentionally gimping yourself.

 

[Prime Junta]

3E DnD character building only leaves PoE in the dust if you factor in multi-classing and Prestige Classes. If you look at base classes, PoE stands firm. Of course it all depends how much expansion material you want to include and which feats. DnD did have a bit of a headstart in system building.

3E D&D prestige classes stink. They're colour-inside-the-lines hacks used to paper over the flaws in the base D&D character system.

Longer version:

The problem with D&D3 classes is that even though the feats system made them a little less on-rails than AD&D, there's still rather little variety to them. You can kinda sorta make a high-Int/high-Dex fighter work (Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack etc), but it'll still kinda sorta stink compared to a classic STR/CON based brute who Power Attacks his way through everything.

D&D3's solution is prestige classes. These are templates that are very carefully crafted to support quirky concepts that you just can't do effectively in the base system -- gishy Eldritch Knights, blurry Shadowdancers, Cyrano-esque Duelists, and so on.

The problem is that the templates are so rigid, with such detailed stat, feat, and skill requirements, that there's almost no player agency left. All you get to do is pick your target prestige class and then colour carefully inside the lines to meet the requirements. That's great for kids who love colouring books, but kinda pointless for people who actually like to use their intelligence and creativity to find novel ways to make use of the system.

The Pillars character system is far superior. People like Boeroer on the Obsidian forums have found many ways to make completely off-the-wall wacky character builds that are not just viable but very powerful, while being certainly not something the designers intended. It rewards intelligence, creativity, and finding ways to bend and break the rules -- entirely unlike D&D3 which gives you a pat on the head for being a good little boy or girl and colouring all the way inside the lines, with none of the red Crayola outside them.

Of course, prestige classes are a fantastic ways to sell more books to players lacking an imagination. Total coincidence I'm sure.

 

[luj1]

Try to be less of a tryhard edgelord.

Are you aware what you are asking of me? Do you know where you are posting?

 

[Sentinel]

What?
Find Familiar would be cool, but I'd prefer something more akin to Friends/Domination, Identify, Detect Invisibility, Detect Traps, Knock, Power Word - Sleep, Clairvoyance, Detect Illusion/Oracle, Dispel Magic (actually dont remember if POE has this one), Haste/Improved Alacrity, Hold Person, Invisibility 10' Radius/Mislead/Mass Invisibility, Minor Sequencer/Spell Sequencer/Spell Trigger, Polymorph Other, Teleport Field, Wizard Eye, Contingency/Chain Contingency, Wish, Project Image/Simulacrum, Symbol - Death, Time Stop.

Except 1,2,4,5 , (arguably for bypassing stuff) 11 those are all combat spells, and the cheesiest ones at that. What non-combat use of time stop did you find in bg2?
They aren't gimped, wizards are still the strongest class. They just aren't as overpowered, which is again, a great decision.

Except most of those could have out of combat utility if there were quests in BG2 that allowed you to solve shit in multiple ways, but the game usually forces combat on your ass. If those spells were in PoE2 or in Fallout New Vegas, they'd be extremely good for going about completing quests/navigating maps in a different manner.

 

[luj1]

In fact I prefer the itemization of PoE

Yeah its great. You can finish the game with almost any armor/weapon. And carry the same gear until the end of the game. Fantastic itemization

 

[Lacrymas]

I've never thought of it like that, Prime Junta, you are right that prestige classes reward rigid adherence to arbitrary rules set by the devs. I don't entirely agree that base classes have no variety though, but they do generally follow an archetype. When I finish my current BG playthrough I'll try to force myself to start PoE again, I have a Priest of Skaen build that I want to try.

 

[Sizzle]

Try to be less of a tryhard edgelord.

Are you aware what you are asking of me? Do you know where you are posting?

So what you're saying is that you will continue your hardest to bridge the gap between retarded RPG Watcher and edgy newfag RPG Codexer in an attempt to become the ultimate shit poster?

Well, then, by all means - carry on

 

[Prime Junta]

I don't entirely agree that base classes have no variety though, but they do generally follow an archetype.

They don't have no variety exactly -- there is some flexibility to them, certainly more than in AD&D and enough for pen-and-paper which is what it was built for. But overall it's still pretty rigid, with a limited number of viable paths to choose from, rather than a genuinely flexible system where you can mix and match stuff for interesting synergies and cool combinations.

 

[Iznaliu]

Are you aware what you are asking of me? Do you know where you are posting?

The truth is a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[luj1]

"AD&D didn't have per-encounter and percentages, MUH FEELZ"

It's not about percentages you dumb jew You can have percentages, why not

You guys are arguing above luj's level. As I suspected, his actual problems with PoE's system turn out to be banal and subjective

It's not subjective, you Cucksidian shill. Why this ruleset/system sucks balls is very objective,

• Endurance adds a tedious and pointless layer to combat in the name of accessibility for peasants who never played an RPG, just so you wouldn't need to rest after every fight (retarded). This leads to your party members mostly mages/priests getting KO'd in nearly every fight and in ways to cannot predict or prevent.
• stats grant too small of an improvement for the player to gauge, Might gives +3% dmg per point and Con gives +3% max HP per point. This isn't Diablo II where max level is 99 so that's OBJECTIVELY a BAD design
• "per encounter" idiocy takes away the tactical element of preparation and trivializes combat. Just as MMO crap like cooldowns
• too many conditions with too many effects not even devs can memorize. conditions should be clear and precise
• class/race balance was incredibly shit at release, ironically enough. You could have solo'd the game with a Fire godlike cipher, whereas there was no motivation to play something like a dwarf rogue or elf monk.

Suma sumarum, ease of access for noobs + autistic devotion to perfect balance butchered the fun this game could have had

 

[Iznaliu]

This leads to your party members getting KO'd in every fight and in ways to cannot predict or prevent.

I would like to know when, where, and why you got your brain surgically removed.

stats grant too small of an improvement for the player to gauge, Might gives +3% dmg per point and Con gives +3% max HP per point.

Small differences can make or break things; plus IE stat differences weren't that large and some stats were useless outside certain builds.

"per encounter" idiocy takes away the tactical element of preparation and trivializes combat. Just as MMO crap like cooldowns

In IE games you can just spam rests, and per-rest abilities are only on a few classes.

too many conditions with too many effects not even devs can memorize. conditions should be clear and precise

Gasp! You might have to think!

ironically class/race balance was shit at release. Just proves you can never balance everything 100%

Sawyer cares more about balance than your average RPG player, but he isn't some obsessive. The release was also rushed.

 

[Sizzle]

Again, probably pointless and all that, but:

Endurance adds a tedious and pointless layer to combat in the name of accessibility for peasants who never played an RPG, just so you wouldn't need to rest after every fight (retarded).

The IE games' system of "rest everywhere, after every fight" was so much better :D

This leads to your party members getting KO'd in every fight and in ways to cannot predict or prevent.

Every fight? :D

You're not very good at this game, are you?

stats grant too small of an improvement for the player to gauge, Might gives +3% dmg per point and Con gives +3% max HP per point.

And yet, for all its faults - it's still a better-designed system than IE's "Playing a fighter? Pump STR, CON, DEX, ignore INT, WIS."

"per encounter" idiocy takes away the tactical element of preparation and trivializes combat. Just as MMO crap like cooldowns

IE games were perfect tactical simulators where you had to carefully consider every fight, and not at all cheese-ridden, full of OP items, spells and class combinations.

Please remove those nostalgia goggles.

too many conditions with too many effects not even devs can memorize. conditions should be clear and precise

Agreed.

ironically class/race balance was shit at release. Just proves you can never balance everything 100%

Or it just proves that you need time and player feedback to balance a completely new game made on a completely new ruleset

 

[luj1]

Small differences can make or break things;

No they cant. +/- 3% doesn't make any difference whatsoever

Gasp! You might have to think!

They admitted it was a bad choice, you lowly cretin

Sawyer cares more about balance than your average RPG player, but he isn't some obsessive.

No, it was an obsessive pursuit of balance & accessibility at all costs. Sawyer is a good designer but he should never be a lead

 

[Prime Junta]

Small differences can make or break things; plus IE stat differences weren't that large and some stats were useless outside certain builds.

Yeah. IE games might as well not have had stats. You just roll until you get 18 18 18 3 3 3 and then assign them to the correct stats for your class. So depth, such complex.

(Okay sure, the BGs had companions with shit stats which you had to work around with items, but that's it.)

---> tangent

The D&D/AD&D stat system only really makes sense if used as originally specified: roll once, then pick the best-fit class for whatever you came up with, and deal with it. You might end up with a genuinely handicapped character, and then it's up to you and the DM to make it work in a campaign. No casualisation like redistributing the stats. You want to play a magic-user but rolled shitty INT? Too bad, you'll be a thief and fucking like it.

Edit: This is how I started playing D&D. Characters tended not to live very long, and we did mostly one-shot dungeon crawls. It was fun, but very different from how PnP role-playing is done nowadays, with every character a speshul snowflake carefully crafted to the Gary Stu requirements of the player's ego.

 

[Parabalus]

It's not about percentages you dumb jew You can have percentages, why not



It's not subjective, you Cucksidian shill. Why this ruleset/system sucks balls is very objective,

And yet you proceed to list a bunch of subjective shit produced by your deranged excuse of a brain.

• Endurance adds a tedious and pointless layer to combat in the name of accessibility for peasants who never played an RPG, just so you wouldn't need to rest after every fight (retarded). This leads to your party members getting KO'd in every fight and in ways to cannot predict or prevent. It's probably the worst design decision in PoE, rivaled in its retardedness only by Effort in Numanum
• stats grant too small of an improvement for the player to gauge, Might gives +3% dmg per point and Con gives +3% max HP per point. This isn't Diablo II where max level is 99 so that's OBJECTIVELY a BAD design
• "per encounter" idiocy takes away the tactical element of preparation and trivializes combat. Just as MMO crap like cooldowns
• too many conditions with too many effects not even devs can memorize. conditions should be clear and precise
• class/race balance was incredibly shit at release, ironically enough. Just proves you can never balance everything 100%

• Endurance is there so you don't have to waste time casting CLW or installing an autocast script. It's also there to reduce dependency on clerics. It's a success on every front. It's the absolute opposite of tedious, it has nothing to do with accessibility or resting, wtf.
• PoE stats grant more of a improvement per point than AD&D, with strength<=>might being the ONLY reasonable contender for melee. It's also a huge improvement because all stats are relevant for all classes, unlike e.g. fighters where you ignore 3/6.
• I bet you consider Underrail shit too, just because it has "cooldowns". Degenerates like you should be hanged
• How can you complain PoE is too complicated when you are comparing it to fucking DnD, where every spell is its own effect? PoE just grouped most sensible stuff together.
• You are high on drugs. PoE on release was not nearly as bad as Bg2 is today.

Except most of those could have out of combat utility if there were quests in BG2 that allowed you to solve shit in multiple ways, but the game usually forces combat on your ass. If those spells were in PoE2 or in Fallout New Vegas, they'd be extremely good for going about completing quests/navigating maps in a different manner.

So, your grievance is that PoE has decent non-combat uses of it's combat spells, but somehow, that is worse than the non-existent non-combat uses of non-combat spells in Bg?

 

[Lacrymas]

I wouldn't take untermenschen companions with shit stats, let alone give them items to compensate. All companions in PoE deserve to be eaten by the blood pool for their stat spread.

 

[luj1]

The IE games' system of "rest everywhere, after every fight" was so much better :D

It was. Because you actually had to plan your moves , pre-buff etc. "Now ill use magic missile and save fireball for later" instead of this tunnel vision garbage for hipsters and newly-baked RPG peasants

Every fight? :D

You're not very good at this game, are you?

The game was piss easy once you understand how shit works. Nice try. Im sad I ever wasted time on it.

And yet, for all its faults - it's still a better-designed system than IE's "Playing a fighter? Pump STR, CON, DEX, ignore INT, WIS."

Min-maxing is more fun than the exhilaration you feel when you raise Might by 1 point only to get + 0.03% damage increase.

and btw you needed 13 INT for Improved Knockdown and Improved Disarm which are both cool for fighters, dumbass

Please remove those nostalgia goggles.

Sure , when you remove those pink modernism glasses

Or it just proves that you need time and player feedback to balance a completely new game made on a completely new ruleset

You should never prioritize balance and accessibility over fun, or you'll get banal/bland shite like PoE no one will remember in 10-15 years

 

[luj1]

Endurance is there so you don't have to waste time casting CLW or installing an autocast script.

It's a success on every front.

 

[Parabalus]

I wouldn't take untermenschen companions with shit stats, let alone give them items to compensate. All companions in PoE deserve to be eaten by the blood pool for their stat spread.

Companions having shit stats is fine IMO, makes your PC stand out more.