Game News Pillars of Eternity II Fig Update #58: Forgotten Sanctum DLC coming December 13th, Patch 4.0 Preview

[Lawntoilet]

Maybe not the story, but the design was heavily influenced by trope subversion. There's a talk by Avellone from a few years back where he details how some of the key goals of the project were to introduce death as a game mechanic (instead of as a game-over one); swapping swords for other weapon types; removing armors and paper doll shenanigans. The list goes on.

So narratively, Torment was... well, about torment! But design-wise, it pretty much started and ended with trope inversion.

JES finds that incredibly shallow, hence Pillars being what it is

Some people have suggested that I hate high fantasy or want to subvert high fantasy. Neither of these are really true. I just don't like how most stories handle high fantasy: both too seriously and not seriously enough. Too seriously in the sense that a lot of fantasy conventions are considered so sacred that you can't touch them (or even question them). Not seriously enough in the sense that the scenarios and the characters don't feel like they tackle the obvious questions raised by the settings they're placed in.

As an example, the Red Wizards of Thay (an FR magical organization/magocracy) underwent a transformation between 2nd Ed. and 3E. They became a "kinder, gentler" trading nation forming magical mercantile enclaves in lands that would let them in. The thing is, 2nd Ed./3E Red Wizards probably look pretty weird to Cormyreans and Dalesmen. They shave their heads (including the women), speak a different language, and have a lot of magical tattoos. They're also darker-skinned. After a few centuries of being regarded as pariahs everywhere west of the River Sur, they show up in these places and are doing business -- questionable business -- in broad daylight.

The FR designers did something interesting in shifting their MO between 2nd Ed. and 3E. The not interesting thing to do (IMO) with that shift as a scenario or story designer would be to have a pack of bad guy Thayans in an enclave with the good guy locals saying, "Those darn Thayans are up to something, please help us, heroes." I was intrigued by the idea that a Thayan enclave could contain a "new guard" of diplomatic Red Wizards and an "old guard" of fireball-hurling hardasses who aren't allowed (or are discouraged from going) outside. Some of the new guard genuinely want to mend fences. Others simply want to use it as a way to re-establish safe power centers and observation posts in lands where they previously would have been killed on sight.

The new guard use concealing/lightening makeup, don wigs, and wear "western" clothing to fit in. The old guard chafes at having to conceal their heritage and suffers under the jeers and slurs of locals if they dare to appear in public. The new guard speaks with good and proper "Common" grammar and pronunciation, not stumbling over foreign sounds and linguistic concepts. I thought it would create a more interesting and nuanced relationship between the Thayans, the Dalesman, and those who interacted with them, lending sympathy to the traditionally "villainous" and creating a more agonizing struggle between the sub-factions of the Thayans.

An old evil wizard who strokes his beard and cackles as he unleashes chain lightning on random townsfolk isn't particularly sympathetic. But suppose he were a veteran Red Wizard who watched his fellows succumb over the years in service to the zulkirs and was forced to "step aside" as young diplomats smooth talked their way into trade relationships with their former enemies. He has to endure the insults of locals, hear them mock his clothing, his pronunciation, his skin, his culture. And when he expresses his frustration to his new (younger) "superiors", he's treated like an anachronism, an old artillery cannon left to rust and rot on a forgotten battlefield. That dude may still wind up casting chain lightning on townsfolk, but if we weave a compelling story around him, the player should feel that there's more to him than that.

I've been rambling here a bit but let me get back to the main point: The Black Hound wasn't really *~ sUbVeRsIvE ~* "this ain't your daddy's RPG!" fantasy. It had elven ruins and fire genasi and Ilmaterian paladins and Maztican sorcerers and crypts full of undead -- all the stuff that made the Forgotten Realms the crazy blend of hardass adventurer-heavy, gods-mess-with-things, cults-and-dracoliches-under-this-rock D&D fantasy it always has been. I, and I think we all, just tried to approach the world with open eyes, asking, "Okay, so let's suppose all of this stuff about the Realms is true. What does that really mean for how the people in it live their lives?" It made the world more dark and grim, and sometimes that consideration wound up bucking convention, but we didn't set out to invert fantasy conventions just for the sake of doing it.

That's all well and good in theory but the point stands that Pillars didn't really do that.

 

[Rake]

JES finds that incredibly shallow, hence Pillars being what it is

Some people have suggested that I hate high fantasy or want to subvert high fantasy. Neither of these are really true. I just don't like how most stories handle high fantasy: both too seriously and not seriously enough. Too seriously in the sense that a lot of fantasy conventions are considered so sacred that you can't touch them (or even question them). Not seriously enough in the sense that the scenarios and the characters don't feel like they tackle the obvious questions raised by the settings they're placed in.

As an example, the Red Wizards of Thay (an FR magical organization/magocracy) underwent a transformation between 2nd Ed. and 3E. They became a "kinder, gentler" trading nation forming magical mercantile enclaves in lands that would let them in. The thing is, 2nd Ed./3E Red Wizards probably look pretty weird to Cormyreans and Dalesmen. They shave their heads (including the women), speak a different language, and have a lot of magical tattoos. They're also darker-skinned. After a few centuries of being regarded as pariahs everywhere west of the River Sur, they show up in these places and are doing business -- questionable business -- in broad daylight.

The FR designers did something interesting in shifting their MO between 2nd Ed. and 3E. The not interesting thing to do (IMO) with that shift as a scenario or story designer would be to have a pack of bad guy Thayans in an enclave with the good guy locals saying, "Those darn Thayans are up to something, please help us, heroes." I was intrigued by the idea that a Thayan enclave could contain a "new guard" of diplomatic Red Wizards and an "old guard" of fireball-hurling hardasses who aren't allowed (or are discouraged from going) outside. Some of the new guard genuinely want to mend fences. Others simply want to use it as a way to re-establish safe power centers and observation posts in lands where they previously would have been killed on sight.

The new guard use concealing/lightening makeup, don wigs, and wear "western" clothing to fit in. The old guard chafes at having to conceal their heritage and suffers under the jeers and slurs of locals if they dare to appear in public. The new guard speaks with good and proper "Common" grammar and pronunciation, not stumbling over foreign sounds and linguistic concepts. I thought it would create a more interesting and nuanced relationship between the Thayans, the Dalesman, and those who interacted with them, lending sympathy to the traditionally "villainous" and creating a more agonizing struggle between the sub-factions of the Thayans.

An old evil wizard who strokes his beard and cackles as he unleashes chain lightning on random townsfolk isn't particularly sympathetic. But suppose he were a veteran Red Wizard who watched his fellows succumb over the years in service to the zulkirs and was forced to "step aside" as young diplomats smooth talked their way into trade relationships with their former enemies. He has to endure the insults of locals, hear them mock his clothing, his pronunciation, his skin, his culture. And when he expresses his frustration to his new (younger) "superiors", he's treated like an anachronism, an old artillery cannon left to rust and rot on a forgotten battlefield. That dude may still wind up casting chain lightning on townsfolk, but if we weave a compelling story around him, the player should feel that there's more to him than that.

I've been rambling here a bit but let me get back to the main point: The Black Hound wasn't really *~ sUbVeRsIvE ~* "this ain't your daddy's RPG!" fantasy. It had elven ruins and fire genasi and Ilmaterian paladins and Maztican sorcerers and crypts full of undead -- all the stuff that made the Forgotten Realms the crazy blend of hardass adventurer-heavy, gods-mess-with-things, cults-and-dracoliches-under-this-rock D&D fantasy it always has been. I, and I think we all, just tried to approach the world with open eyes, asking, "Okay, so let's suppose all of this stuff about the Realms is true. What does that really mean for how the people in it live their lives?" It made the world more dark and grim, and sometimes that consideration wound up bucking convention, but we didn't set out to invert fantasy conventions just for the sake of doing it.

Kinda bland?
Also, PoE wasn't dark and grim, it was just... bleak. It's a subtle difference, but it was that difference that makes it boring

 

[SlumLord]

JES finds that incredibly shallow, hence Pillars being what it is

Which makes him a dickless shemale. And a humorless fuccboi that couldn't design his way out of a paper bag. Though to be fair, Josh would probably excel as a balance designer for a MOBA or MMORPG. He just misses the point with single-player CRPGs - you're supposed to become overpowered and rape everything in sight (well, eventually... not right away of course). Balance(TM) detracts from the experience.

 

[Fairfax]

MCA didn't subvert tropes/expectation in PS:T just for the hell of it. All "subversions" were changes to things he genuinely disliked and/or were overdone at the time. Some changes were relatively small (rats, sympathetic zombies, weapons, lying angels, items with stories, puritan succubus), others were a big part of the game (personal story, immortality, different incarnations, alignment and class changes, etc).

 

[SlumLord]

^I wish I could find the presentation where he talks about PS:T in depth. It was from a while ago, he's in a smallish dark room with not too many people, he opens up with Darth Nihilus on the projector screen... Had it bookmarked ages ago, but fuck me if I know what it's called.

 

[Rake]

All "subversions" were changes to things he genuinely disliked

To play devil's advocate, Sawyer did the same with PoE. The failure is a combination of him having bad tastes and botching the execution of his ideas

 

[SlumLord]

Sawyer the Kutthroat Kraut vs. Avellone the Italian Rapscallion!

All Things Balanced vs. The Creative Force!

Lanklet vs. Manlet!

Nazi vs. Commie!

Who will win?

You decide!

Epppppppiiiiiic rap battles of H-h-h-h-h-h-istoryyyyyyy!

 

[Fairfax]

^I wish I could find the presentation where he talks about PS:T in depth. It was from a while ago, he's in a smallish dark room with not too many people, he opens up with Darth Nihilus on the projector screen... Had it bookmarked ages ago, but fuck me if I know what it's called.

 

[SlumLord]

Ayo, that's the one!

Thx Fairfax, you're a bro.

 

[Azarkon]

Are you asking how the build up to meeting Many As One served the game's central motif of subverting popular CRPG tropes, such as the lack of respect given to level 1 rats? That should be obvious, shouldn't it?

Torment's story wasn't about "subverting tropes" though sure there was plenty of "we're going to fill this thing with so many fetch quests but wink and nod about how fetch quests are just so boring."

I think you can make a strong argument that Planescape: Torment's story was, in fact, a subversion of the classic CRPG story.

I'll just mention a few comparisons:

• In the classic CRPG story, the player starts off with a blank sheet, and the entire game is about filling that sheet.
• In Planescape: Torment, the player starts off with a full sheet, and the entire game is about dealing with the consequences of that sheet.
• In the classic CRPG story, the player's goal is to avoid death.
• In Planescape: Torment, the player's goal is to die.
• In the classic CRPG story, the villain is external, an outside threat.
• In Planescape: Torment, the villain is internal, an aspect of the player himself.
• In the classic CRPG story, most of the player's companions are stereotypes of their class, race, etc.
• In Planescape: Torment, most of the player's companions are the opposite of their stereotypes: a succubus that is chaste, a githzerai who is a slave, a meat shield with no body, a modron cube that is chaotic, etc.
• In the classic CRPG story, the player is trying to save the world.
• In Planescape: Torment, the player is trying to save his own soul.

So I would not say that this was just a theme Avellone added on because he was concerned about the player being bored. It was, in fact, central to the game's design.

 

[Azarkon]

All "subversions" were changes to things he genuinely disliked

To play devil's advocate, Sawyer did the same with PoE. The failure is a combination of him having bad tastes and botching the execution of his ideas

I don't think he was in charge of the story of Pillars of Eternity. Fenstermaker was, and Fenstermaker most definitely wanted to tell a more philosophical and thematic story, which likely led to problems of consistency with the Dungeons and Dragons clone Feargus wanted.

 

[Lawntoilet]

All "subversions" were changes to things he genuinely disliked

To play devil's advocate, Sawyer did the same with PoE. The failure is a combination of him having bad tastes and botching the execution of his ideas

I don't think he was in charge of the story of Pillars of Eternity. Fenstermaker was, and Fenstermaker most definitely wanted to tell a more philosophical and thematic story, which likely led to problems of consistency with the Dungeons and Dragons clone Feargus wanted.

That's true. I don't know much of what Josh has actually written, but he is capable of recognizing and working with good writing, I think - New Vegas is obvious but IWD1/2 had good writing too even though they weren't about the plot.
Fenstermaker is capable of good writing, too, and there is good writing in PoE, just not consistently.
Deadfire would have been much better if it were more like F:NV or IWD1/2 and was lighter on the main plot, with more focus on what's in front of you (factions, exploration, NPC interactions, open-ended quest solutions) - when it did that stuff it was much better. And it probably would've if it had been an independent IP or even a new license, instead of a PoE sequel. Shit, it could've even still been set in Eora, just separate from the Watcher of Caed Nua's story.

Are you asking how the build up to meeting Many As One served the game's central motif of subverting popular CRPG tropes, such as the lack of respect given to level 1 rats? That should be obvious, shouldn't it?

Torment's story wasn't about "subverting tropes" though sure there was plenty of "we're going to fill this thing with so many fetch quests but wink and nod about how fetch quests are just so boring."

I think you can make a strong argument that Planescape: Torment's story was, in fact, a subversion of the classic CRPG story.

I'll just mention a few comparisons:

• In the classic CRPG story, the player starts off with a blank sheet, and the entire game is about filling that sheet.
• In Planescape: Torment, the player starts off with a full sheet, and the entire game is about dealing with the consequences of that sheet.
• In the classic CRPG story, the player's goal is to avoid death.
• In Planescape: Torment, the player's goal is to die.
• In the classic CRPG story, the villain is external, an outside threat.
• In Planescape: Torment, the villain is internal, an aspect of the player himself.
• In the classic CRPG story, most of the player's companions are stereotypes of their class, race, etc.
• In Planescape: Torment, most of the player's companions are the opposite of their stereotypes: a succubus that is chaste, a githzerai who is a slave, a meat shield with no body, a modron cube that is chaotic, etc.
• In the classic CRPG story, the player is trying to save the world.
• In Planescape: Torment, the player is trying to save his own soul.

So I would not say that this was just a theme Avellone added on because he was concerned about the player being bored. It was, in fact, central to the game's design.

Fucking yes, subversion isn't good for its own sake (see: The Last Jedi) but god damn I'm getting a hankering to play Torment again because MCA is so good at it.

 

[jdinatale]

Not a bad thing. Cragholdt Bluffs was a high point because it was an adventure that could have come straight out of AD&D. I'm just asking for a little nod to earlier developers who flexed their creativity, as in an entire overland map and dungeons built out of Moander's dormant corpse.

Standing on the shoulders of giants.

The Pillars of Eternity game world is essentially a severe case of dissociative identity disorder. On one hand, it wants to be Dungeons and Dragons, with elves and dragons and liches. On the other hand, it wants to be a profound exploration of existentialism, nihilism, and the nature of souls. It wouldn't be so bad, had they simply decided to focus on one, or the other, but attempting to focus on both killed it for me.

To use your Cragholdt Bluffs as an example, the dungeon and its associated quests came out of no where and was a jarring interruption to the narrative. Concelhaut, aka not Irenicus, is given a faint motivation of being vaguely interested in your soul, but otherwise he's completely detached from the story, as are his rivals. You'd think that the most powerful wizards in the world would have a strong interest in Thaos and the Leaden Key, but no, they don't give a fuck, and act like they don't even live in the same world. Llengrath, for instance, pretends that her strategy of transferring her knowledge from generation to generation is cool shit, but her developer didn't seem to realize that all Llengrath is doing is what the Watcher and Thaos are already doing and that Llengrath is just doing it in a much more stupid way.

You want to do Dungeons and Dragons? Then do Dungeons and Dragons. Call Concelhaut, say, Larloch, and Llengrath, say, Szass Tam. Then your story becomes: Szass Tam is trying to steal the magical secrets of Larloch, and tricks a group of powerful paladins, clerics, etc. to do his bidding; the players get involved as contractors to the group, and are misled into thinking they were trying to rid the realms of an ancient evil, when in fact Larloch's existence is necessary to bring balance to the weave, or shit, and then you can have the standard Dungeons and Dragons alignment conflict, etc.

Or, you know, you can take the opposite path, and actually explore the ideas you've created. So instead of Cragholdt Bluffs, make it the ruins of an ancient Engwithan laboratory, where the Engwithans launched their inquiries into the nature of being. Have it be filled with the soul echoes of the Engwithan researchers, who ventured deep into the void, calling the names of their deities, only to find nothing. Show us what the Engwithans saw, what might have convinced them of the fact, and have it hint at how they dealt with the aftermath, of the idea of an empty existence. After all, isn't that the whole premise?

Not to mention this current offering, lifted straight from Dungeons and Dragons. You're telling me you couldn't come up with a better, more novel idea that would be consistent with the themes you've raised? Like what about the Wheel, which is referred to directly in the second game's beginning and ending? How about building a dungeon around that, so as to give context to the Eothas dialogue? Or how about an aborted Engwithan god, where the souls sacrificed to create the god failed to converge, and are now stuck in a dark, twisted place and you have to help them move on, either by escaping back to the Wheel, or by joining together to create the actual god? Why is this so difficult?

I don't know, maybe they will actually surprise us and create a thematically consistent and creatively significant adventure, but knowing the precedents, I doubt it.

The main story of PoE2 is about the march of history and the effects on the common man of actions by the powerful . The factions are a more "mundane" expression of this theme, with the status quo in the Deadfire being obviously untenable. They tell you that history is going to be made here, and ask you to determine the shape of it. You can, of course, opt out of taking part in history- in which case the truce between the factions is broken regardless and history goes on without you. In the same way, you can vow to stop Eothas throughout the game, even to his face at the end- and if you do so, he kills you instantly. You can't prevent history from happening, and to do so is to be swept aside and made insignificant.

Plus don't forget: in this setting the gods are ascended humans(or kith, whatever). The Pillars Of Eternity setting has been colonised by the Engwithans. The gods' debates are just you reporting to Onekaza but with prettier pictures.

As far as Cragholdt, I don't know that side quests are really obligated to be tied in with the main narrative. Especially in a video game, which is to say an entertainment product, having aspects that are present to entertain the player is pretty forgivable. That said, Concelhaut and Llengrath are loosely connected to the game's themes by their differing methods of preservation- Concelhaut desires to preserve himself, Llengrath her knowledge. This contrast of people vs abstract ideals is present in many of the companions' side quests, up to and including the game's villain using his mission to save the world from despair as justification for committing atrocities, and the Engwithans sacrificing their humanity to become living ideals. The main theme, though, is about having a fight with a cool lich, and I'm surprised to learn that isn't a theme we can all get behind.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

JES finds that incredibly shallow, hence Pillars being what it is

Some people have suggested that I hate high fantasy or want to subvert high fantasy. Neither of these are really true. I just don't like how most stories handle high fantasy: both too seriously and not seriously enough. Too seriously in the sense that a lot of fantasy conventions are considered so sacred that you can't touch them (or even question them). Not seriously enough in the sense that the scenarios and the characters don't feel like they tackle the obvious questions raised by the settings they're placed in.

But taking high fantasy conventions seriously is inherently subversive ("let's follow this to its logical conclusion" is one of the most subversive phrases in the English language). Sawyer should have stopped to ask why so many fantasy conventions are treated as unquestionable. It's not just because they're sacred cows. When you take this stuff to its logical conclusion, it either falls apart (it was never meant to survive strict scrutiny as fantasy logic isn't necessarily real world logic) or you end up in a very dark place.

It's no coincidence the CRPGs that "tackle the obvious questions raised by" their crazy high fantasy settings are also some of the most subversive, Planescape: Torment, KotOR2 and Mask of the Betrayer.

 

[Terelyn]

Infinitron
What's your opinion on PoE?

 

[Delterius]

Island-hopping exploration and dungeon-delving exploration (even for small island mini-dungeons) is classic pirate D&D.

lies

nobody likes nautical campaigns

classic pirate D&D is

 

[aweigh]

i've sunk probably upwards of 100 hours combined into both poe1 and poe2 by now and i still don't remember what exactly the story is in either.