Game News Pillars of Eternity II Fig Update #58: Forgotten Sanctum DLC coming December 13th, Patch 4.0 Preview

[Lawntoilet]

Deadfire is not your typical Dungeons & Dragons adventure.

Island-hopping exploration and dungeon-delving exploration (even for small island mini-dungeons) is classic pirate D&D.

The worldbuilding is grounded and based on real-life cultures, history, and folklore. Your typical D&D setting is generic high fantasy where anything is possible.

Forgotten Realms is based on real-life cultures, history, and folklore, too. That doesn't make it grounded. Deadfire is high fantasy, too, even if the magic doesn't get quite as extreme (but you still have liches and dragons and shit, and adra/animancy/souls can enable all kinds of shenanigans).

Structurally it's much closer to Fallout: New Vegas. You have a large open world with multiple competing factions, and your actions determine the fate of the region in the ending slideshow.

The main issue with the world in Deadfire is it feels like a big checklist of what the Watcher can do, as opposed to a region in a larger world like Fallout (or IE games or Kingmaker).
Oh hey you're somehow the first guy ever to chart the entire Archipelago without help
Oh hey you ended slavery in the region all by yourself
Damn you fixed every problem in the Gullet
Lots of games allow for this kind of power fantasy, but not usually to this extent where you can fix absolutely everything you come across. That makes it feel reactive I suppose but it also makes the world seem small when the PC can have such a huge impact on problems of any scale. Especially since there is no urgency to complete the world-altering main quest.
Either there should be more emphasis on the factions and a smaller-scale, more personal plot, like New Vegas (I know the soul thing is supposed to be personal, but it has no real effect during the game, and pales in importance to the rogue god with potential world-ending goals), or less emphasis on the factions and a stronger main narrative to emphasize its importance.

 

[Safav Hamon]

A historical setting based on 18th century colonialism does not make it fit any better. It's like a designer came in and imposed his own pet vision on the game without any attention to what came before, like he just dumped what he didn't like and came up with a convenient excuse to justify what he actually wanted to make, which was not a sequel to Pillars of Eternity, but a certain historical CRPG...

On the contrary, they're finally creating the universe they wanted to all along.

The first game had an identity crisis over whether it wanted to be a generic D&D clone or early-modern historical fantasy.

Deadfire abandoend most of the D&D cliches in the first game, and doubled down on the real world historical and cultural influences. The world feels more realized as a result.

Put it this way: how does the politics of colonialism fit with the theological themes of the game? Why does the game spend so much time explaining the cultures and politics of the islands, when ultimately, it's cosmic morality that's at stake?

I agree there's still a disconnect, but without spoiling the ending, it essentially writes the gods out of the universe.

 

[Azarkon]

Put it this way: how do the politics of colonialism fit with the theological themes of the game? Why are you even bothered by which faction is abusing what, when you're trying to save the world from a walking god? Why does the game spend so much time explaining the cultures and history of the islands, when ultimately, it's cosmic morality that's at stake?

You're right about the first game not knowing what it wanted to be. But the second game isn't any better, in this respect, because it was forced to be a sequel to the first game. Had it not been a sequel to the first game, had it no connections to Pillars of Eternity at all, and focused only on the colonial politics and New World explorations, it would've been a much better game. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Forgotten Realms is based on real-life cultures, history, and folklore, too.

Not as autistically as Deadfire. There are hundreds of obscure references to Polynesian culture, history, and mythology.

Lots of games allow for this kind of power fantasy, but not usually to this extent where you can fix absolutely everything you come across. That makes it feel reactive I suppose but it also makes the world seem small when the PC can have such a huge impact on problems of any scale. Especially since there is no urgency to complete the world-altering main quest.

I don't feel this is true at all. You don't fix most of the problems in the region, the ending results in a catostropic worldchanging event, and all five factions in the game are dicks.

 

[Safav Hamon]

. Had it not been a sequel to the first game, had it no connections to Pillars of Eternity at all, and focused only on the colonial politics and New World explorations, it would've been a much better game. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

I 100% agree, which is why I was satisfied the ending reduced the importance of gods in the universe.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Forgotten Realms is based on real-life cultures, history, and folklore, too.

Not as autistically as Deadfire. There are hundreds of obscure references to Polynesian culture, history, and mythology.

That does make the setting more autistic but not more grounded. It's OK that it isn't more grounded, but it's still high fantasy with magic and liches and dragons and shit.

Lots of games allow for this kind of power fantasy, but not usually to this extent where you can fix absolutely everything you come across. That makes it feel reactive I suppose but it also makes the world seem small when the PC can have such a huge impact on problems of any scale. Especially since there is no urgency to complete the world-altering main quest.

I don't feel this is true at all. You don't fix most of the problems in the region, the ending results in a catostropic worldchanging event, and all five factions in the game are dicks.

The fact that you don't have much impact on the ending doesn't change the fact that everything feels like it's there to be discovered and solved by you as opposed to you discovered something that was there and solved it. I realize this is not a concrete definition and maybe it's just me but the setting felt build around the quest and the character, instead of the character being dropped in a world, like Fallout.
The factions being dicks doesn't matter either to what I said. The fact that you don't exclude them earlier is kind of another example of what I was getting at - like no matter how much you sabotage the RDC, they're like "oh hey it's you, you're cool and only you can solve our problem" until you literally 9/11 them because the Vailians give you a flimsy excuse why they need you to.

. Had it not been a sequel to the first game, had it no connections to Pillars of Eternity at all, and focused only on the colonial politics and New World explorations, it would've been a much better game. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

I 100% agree, which is why I was satisfied the ending reduced the importance of gods in the universe.

I also agree with this, it definitely suffered from shoehorning PoE1 things into a fun pirate romp.

 

[Safav Hamon]

I realize this is not a concrete definition and maybe it's just me but the setting felt build around the quest and the character, instead of the character being dropped in a world, like Fallout.

Fallout's main quest is less mechanical than Deadfire.

In Fallout 1 & 2, you travel to places and solve their problems in order to find clues of where to go next. In Deadfire, you travel to places and solve their problems because a faction told you so.

 

[Lawntoilet]

I realize this is not a concrete definition and maybe it's just me but the setting felt build around the quest and the character, instead of the character being dropped in a world, like Fallout.

That's because Fallout's main quest is less mechanical than Deadfire.

In Fallout 1 & 2 you travel to places and solve their problems in the hopes of finding clues. In Deadfire, you travel to places and solve their problems because a faction told you so.

It's more than that, though, because there are things like being the first person to ever chart like half the Archipelago, despite the islands not even being hard to find.

 

[Safav Hamon]

The playable map in Deadfire isn't the entire archipelago. It's only a portion of it, and there are hundreds of uncharted islands according to the lore.

There are even other nations in the Archipelago besides the Huana, such as Naasitaq.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

The first game had an identity crisis over whether it wanted to be a generic D&D clone or early-modern historical fantasy.

Deadfire abandoend most of the D&D cliches in the first game, and doubled down on the real world historical and cultural influences. The world feels more realized as a result.

You are conflating D&D with some of its more popular settings. As an aside, in terms of setting, the first game knew exactly what it wanted, a late renaissance Forgotten Realms knockoff. Deadfire is like an early modern Storm of Zehir using something closer to 4E than 3.5, right down to many of the early story beats. And SoZ, which wasn’t great on the story front, did this kind of plot better. You start off shipwrecked, and after that you’re working for a trading company in a tropical region. In the course of business you end up discovering the dire threat posed by the Yuan-Ti and their dark god. There is one plot line that’s mostly coherent, not two that are bafflingly unrelated. New Vegas also did it much better because the faction stuff was the main quest. In Deadfire it’s glorified side content.

More important, when people speak of D&D cliches, they don’t mean “bog standard Western European fantasy world.” Putting aside that there’s much more to D&D than that, they mean the party of adventurers going on atomized adventures for no particular purpose. Filling the game with lots of little self-contained islands with self-contained little dungeons is D&D at its most cliched. This wouldn’t be a problem if you were just, you know, adventuring, but the main story here is fundamentally disconnected from most of Deadfire’s content.

Read this more carefully:

By contrast, how is being an adventurer, hunting monsters, and diving dungeons for wealth and power consistent with Pillars of Eternity's narrative themes? Why, in the second game, do you spend 90% of your time doing random treasure hunts while pursuing Eothas? Why play up characters like Concelhaut when they are completely incidental to the main agents of influence and conflict in the world? They're not even animancers! It's like two different and completely separate lines of design pulling at each other. That's what makes it an either decision.

By the standards of what you spend most of the game doing, yeah, it’s still knockoff D&D in a slightly more unusual setting.

Sawyer also does a lousy job of exploring the nuances of colonialism. In his passion for balance, he made all of the factions mild to moderately shitty. The setting could and should have accommodated some Caesar’s Legion level bastards. Compared to the East India Company (Dutch or British, take your pick) the factions in Deadfire are all pussycats.

 

[Lawntoilet]

The first game had an identity crisis over whether it wanted to be a generic D&D clone or early-modern historical fantasy.

Deadfire abandoend most of the D&D cliches in the first game, and doubled down on the real world historical and cultural influences. The world feels more realized as a result.

You are conflating D&D with some of its more popular settings. As an aside, in terms of setting, the first game knew exactly what it wanted, a late renaissance Forgotten Realms knockoff. Deadfire is like an early modern Storm of Zehir using something closer to 4E than 3.5, right down to many of the early story beats. And SoZ, which wasn’t great on the story front, did this kind of plot better. You start off shipwrecked, and after that you’re working for a trading company in a tropical region. In the course of business you end up discovering the dire threat posed by the Yuan-Ti and their dark god. There is one plot line that’s mostly coherent, not two that are bafflingly unrelated. New Vegas also did it much better because the faction stuff was the main quest. In Deadfire it’s glorified side content.

More important, when people speak of D&D cliches, they don’t mean “bog standard Western European fantasy world.” Putting aside that there’s much more to D&D than that, they mean the party of adventurers going on atomized adventures for no particular purpose. Filling the game with lots of little self-contained islands with self-contained little dungeons is D&D at its most cliched. This wouldn’t be a problem if you were just, you know, adventuring, but the main story here is fundamentally disconnected from most of Deadfire’s content.

Read this more carefully:

By contrast, how is being an adventurer, hunting monsters, and diving dungeons for wealth and power consistent with Pillars of Eternity's narrative themes? Why, in the second game, do you spend 90% of your time doing random treasure hunts while pursuing Eothas? Why play up characters like Concelhaut when they are completely incidental to the main agents of influence and conflict in the world? They're not even animancers! It's like two different and completely separate lines of design pulling at each other. That's what makes it an either decision.

By the standards of what you spend most of the game doing, yeah, it’s still knockoff D&D in a slightly more unusual setting.

Sawyer also does a lousy job of exploring the nuances of colonialism. In his passion for balance, he made all of the factions mild to moderately shitty. The setting could and should have accommodated some Caesar’s Legion level bastards. Compared to the East India Company (Dutch or British, take your pick) the factions in Deadfire are all pussycats.

Incidentally, anyone working on Deadfire (especially the Principi) should have been obligated to watch Black Sails in its entirety. That show was like a much better version of the Furrante-Aeldys conflict and a master class in how to tell a pirate story (especially from season 2 onward).

 

[Delterius]

There's already a wild mage subclass in the game

does it accidentally conjure flying cows

 

[Roguey]

You're ignoring "with elves and dragons and liches".

Mask of the Betrayer has all of these.

That example is completely irrelevant because neither the Planescape setting nor the story of Planescape: Torment could be considered high fantasy. It never tried to be what it wasn't.

High fantasy is defined as fantasy set in an alternative, fictional ("secondary") world, rather than "the real", or "primary" world. The secondary world is usually internally consistent, but its rules differ from those of the primary world. By contrast, low fantasy is characterized by being set in the primary, or "real" world, or a rational and familiar fictional world, with the inclusion of magical elements.

Ya gotta use a different term here.

There was never a moment in MoTB where you had to ask, "wait, how is this related to the game's narrative again?"

By contrast, how is being an adventurer, hunting monsters, and diving dungeons for wealth and power consistent with Pillars of Eternity's narrative themes?

People complained about the lack of sidequests in Mask of the Betrayer. They're an expected feature of role playing games.

(How is hunting rats relevant to Planescape Torment's themes? and so on)

 

[Dorateen]

Not a bad thing. Cragholdt Bluffs was a high point because it was an adventure that could have come straight out of AD&D. I'm just asking for a little nod to earlier developers who flexed their creativity, as in an entire overland map and dungeons built out of Moander's dormant corpse.

Standing on the shoulders of giants.

The Pillars of Eternity game world is essentially a severe case of dissociative identity disorder. On one hand, it wants to be Dungeons and Dragons, with elves and dragons and liches. On the other hand, it wants to be a profound exploration of existentialism, nihilism, and the nature of souls.

I absolutely agree with your assessment. And you can guess which camp I side with. The difference is, while you expressed frustration over this contradictory design philosophy, I chose to embrace those moments whenever the game showed some semblance of classic Dungeons & Dragons. Where you found Cragholdt to be an interruption of the narrative, I rejoiced in the opportunity to escape the main story and Obsidian's ridiculous pseudo-intellectualism. The first part of the White March was much more satisfying to me than base Pillars.

It's interesting that you mentioned Larloch and Szass Tam. Personally, in Concelhaut I saw the direct inspiration from Greyhawk's Circle of Eight, the renowned Archmages such as Tenser and Mordenkainen. That kind of adventure resonated with me, it was delightful to encounter and battle such a persona.

 

[luj1]

neo Obsidian (B-team) = talentless hipsters and SJWs for the most part

PoE franchise = an exercise in amateurism, failure in every sense except music and graphics

Sawyer = retrograde PnP designer (despite his admittedly extensive knowledge as GM and game designer, he isn't improving but regressing)

people who think PoE is any good to a genre veteran = cannot truly differentiate between good and bad to begin with

 

[Lawntoilet]

(How is hunting rats relevant to Planescape Torment's themes? and so on)

Are you seriously asking? Because Many-As-One, the Silent King, and Dead Nations make it a bit deeper than your typical hunt rats quest.

Not a bad thing. Cragholdt Bluffs was a high point because it was an adventure that could have come straight out of AD&D. I'm just asking for a little nod to earlier developers who flexed their creativity, as in an entire overland map and dungeons built out of Moander's dormant corpse.

Standing on the shoulders of giants.

The Pillars of Eternity game world is essentially a severe case of dissociative identity disorder. On one hand, it wants to be Dungeons and Dragons, with elves and dragons and liches. On the other hand, it wants to be a profound exploration of existentialism, nihilism, and the nature of souls.

I absolutely agree with your assessment. And you can guess which camp I side with. The difference is, while you expressed frustration over this contradictory design philosophy, I chose to embrace those moments whenever the game showed some semblance of classic Dungeons & Dragons. Where you found Cragholdt to be an interruption of the narrative, I rejoiced in the opportunity to escape the main story and Obsidian's ridiculous pseudo-intellectualism. The first part of the White March was much more satisfying to me than base Pillars.

It's interesting that you mentioned Larloch and Szass Tam. Personally, in Concelhaut I saw the direct inspiration from Greyhawk's Circle of Eight, the renowned Archmages such as Tenser and Mordenkainen. That kind of adventure resonated with me, it was delightful to encounter and battle such a persona.

Completely agree. It is possible to do both, MotB did, but unless you have the writing to support it then you should err on the side of classic D&D fun.
Worked for Owlcat.

 

[Ulfhednar]

It is possible to do both, MotB did, but unless you have the writing to support it then you should err on the side of classic D&D fun.
Worked for Owlcat.

This! Send out hiring requests for D&D module creators, not fantasy narrative designers.

 

[SlumLord]

The worldbuilding is grounded and based on real-life cultures, history, and folklore.

Yes, all those Venetian nigresses with cloacas under their anatomically-correct platemails are in agreement.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

(How is hunting rats relevant to Planescape Torment's themes? and so on)

The bounties provided early game income and encourage exploration down into the sewers. This is a natural and helpful way to lead the player along in the plot. It's actually a very good example of side-quest usage. This is especially true for a game with an alien setting and abstract plot where some players might need help progressing.

 

[Riddler]

PoE franchise = an exercise in amateurism, failure in every sense except music and graphics

The music in deadfire is pretty bad in a lot of places and by far the best pieces are from PoE1 (particularly WM). It would be more accurate to say that PoE had good music and Deadfire had good graphics imo.

 

[Azarkon]

You're ignoring "with elves and dragons and liches".

Mask of the Betrayer has all of these.

Sure, and MoTB was thematically consistent - its narrative elements reflected the game world and its classic alignment conflicts, and it kept players on task because that's what the story called for. There was no "this game wants to explore important theological and existential themes, and its plot is about you going mad, but go ahead and spend most of your time being a swashbuckling adventurer."

(How is hunting rats relevant to Planescape Torment's themes? and so on)

Are you asking how the build up to meeting Many As One served the game's central motif of subverting popular CRPG tropes, such as the lack of respect given to level 1 rats? That should be obvious, shouldn't it?

 

[Lawntoilet]

Yes, all those Venetian nigresses with cloacas under their anatomically-correct platemails are in agreement.

You see, the Moors...

 

[Roguey]

Are you asking how the build up to meeting Many As One served the game's central motif of subverting popular CRPG tropes, such as the lack of respect given to level 1 rats? That should be obvious, shouldn't it?

Torment's story wasn't about "subverting tropes" though sure there was plenty of "we're going to fill this thing with so many fetch quests but wink and nod about how fetch quests are just so boring."

 

[SlumLord]

Torment's story wasn't about "subverting tropes"

Maybe not the story, but the design was heavily influenced by trope subversion. There's a talk by Avellone from a few years back where he details how some of the key goals of the project were to introduce death as a game mechanic (instead of as a game-over one); swapping swords for other weapon types; removing armors and paper doll shenanigans. The list goes on.

So narratively, Torment was... well, about torment! But design-wise, it pretty much started and ended with trope inversion.

 

[Roguey]

Maybe not the story, but the design was heavily influenced by trope subversion. There's a talk by Avellone from a few years back where he details how some of the key goals of the project were to introduce death as a game mechanic (instead of as a game-over one); swapping swords for other weapon types; removing armors and paper doll shenanigans. The list goes on.

So narratively, Torment was... well, about torment! But design-wise, it pretty much started and ended with trope inversion.

JES finds that incredibly shallow, hence Pillars being what it is

Some people have suggested that I hate high fantasy or want to subvert high fantasy. Neither of these are really true. I just don't like how most stories handle high fantasy: both too seriously and not seriously enough. Too seriously in the sense that a lot of fantasy conventions are considered so sacred that you can't touch them (or even question them). Not seriously enough in the sense that the scenarios and the characters don't feel like they tackle the obvious questions raised by the settings they're placed in.

As an example, the Red Wizards of Thay (an FR magical organization/magocracy) underwent a transformation between 2nd Ed. and 3E. They became a "kinder, gentler" trading nation forming magical mercantile enclaves in lands that would let them in. The thing is, 2nd Ed./3E Red Wizards probably look pretty weird to Cormyreans and Dalesmen. They shave their heads (including the women), speak a different language, and have a lot of magical tattoos. They're also darker-skinned. After a few centuries of being regarded as pariahs everywhere west of the River Sur, they show up in these places and are doing business -- questionable business -- in broad daylight.

The FR designers did something interesting in shifting their MO between 2nd Ed. and 3E. The not interesting thing to do (IMO) with that shift as a scenario or story designer would be to have a pack of bad guy Thayans in an enclave with the good guy locals saying, "Those darn Thayans are up to something, please help us, heroes." I was intrigued by the idea that a Thayan enclave could contain a "new guard" of diplomatic Red Wizards and an "old guard" of fireball-hurling hardasses who aren't allowed (or are discouraged from going) outside. Some of the new guard genuinely want to mend fences. Others simply want to use it as a way to re-establish safe power centers and observation posts in lands where they previously would have been killed on sight.

The new guard use concealing/lightening makeup, don wigs, and wear "western" clothing to fit in. The old guard chafes at having to conceal their heritage and suffers under the jeers and slurs of locals if they dare to appear in public. The new guard speaks with good and proper "Common" grammar and pronunciation, not stumbling over foreign sounds and linguistic concepts. I thought it would create a more interesting and nuanced relationship between the Thayans, the Dalesman, and those who interacted with them, lending sympathy to the traditionally "villainous" and creating a more agonizing struggle between the sub-factions of the Thayans.

An old evil wizard who strokes his beard and cackles as he unleashes chain lightning on random townsfolk isn't particularly sympathetic. But suppose he were a veteran Red Wizard who watched his fellows succumb over the years in service to the zulkirs and was forced to "step aside" as young diplomats smooth talked their way into trade relationships with their former enemies. He has to endure the insults of locals, hear them mock his clothing, his pronunciation, his skin, his culture. And when he expresses his frustration to his new (younger) "superiors", he's treated like an anachronism, an old artillery cannon left to rust and rot on a forgotten battlefield. That dude may still wind up casting chain lightning on townsfolk, but if we weave a compelling story around him, the player should feel that there's more to him than that.

I've been rambling here a bit but let me get back to the main point: The Black Hound wasn't really *~ sUbVeRsIvE ~* "this ain't your daddy's RPG!" fantasy. It had elven ruins and fire genasi and Ilmaterian paladins and Maztican sorcerers and crypts full of undead -- all the stuff that made the Forgotten Realms the crazy blend of hardass adventurer-heavy, gods-mess-with-things, cults-and-dracoliches-under-this-rock D&D fantasy it always has been. I, and I think we all, just tried to approach the world with open eyes, asking, "Okay, so let's suppose all of this stuff about the Realms is true. What does that really mean for how the people in it live their lives?" It made the world more dark and grim, and sometimes that consideration wound up bucking convention, but we didn't set out to invert fantasy conventions just for the sake of doing it.