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Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

FreeKaner

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Difficulty =/= Bad design

Not having problems with the former, just latter. Please re-read (since you care enough to reply).

Jesus, since when it started to be so hard to justifiably shit on RPGs on codex of all places.

I read all of your posts, while I do agree that PoE has design flaws, I think those are not your problems. I think you are a stubborn individual, which is cool but it's an issue in this case. Unless you consider that the necessity to approach the encounters while being mindful of enemy defences and optimising by targeting their weaker defences is a design flaw in itself, which I disagree. I think that's a good basis.

Here are my opinions from earlier this thread:

I agree that PoE is lacking in strategic diversity and aside from a few key encounters, mainly centred in expansions unfortunately also, means that you will basically using same template in most fights diverging only to react to occasional differences. I don't think it is because of character system though, I think it's because lacklustre encounter design and a general lack of strong counter-play. You either start pro-actively and keep that going, using your momentum to overwhelm the fight or start defensive with buffs and win by attrition, for 95% of the fights there is no variance to choosing one of these. This was improved a bit with later patches as encounters were a bit more diversified, and some encounters required specific counter-plays & positioning etc. but it was not on the level of BG2.

Ultimately and unfortunately PoE1 became about more shaping a party around a general strategy and applying that tactically whenever possible rather than playing reactively according to your environment and what you encounter except very few cases which throws you off and requires you to change your tactics; These being Alpine Dragon fight where positioning and strong single target nuking is extremely important, Concelhaut fight especially because his unique spell that can remove a party member from the fight right at the start, second Raedric fight where they are all undead and cast charm, fight against Llengrath because she is a defensive battle-mage that needs to be countered and shut-down directly, WM fight against the Mushroom and WM fight(s) against the Eyeless. Even bounties that are generally challenging do not deviate much from the aforementioned building of a general party strategy and applying that either offensively or defensively.

Overall though I liked the basis of the system, it was just not very well developed and the encounter design except very few cases in a very long game made it rather samey.
 

Prime Junta

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A lot of design decisions (idk nor do I care if they were made by Josh in particular or someone else, in case you think I have some sort of bias against him, I actually like Sawyer and his work for the most part) are just plain bad, no real way around it.

Your criticism would carry more weight if you demonstrated that you actually understand said design decisions. Since you obviously don't -- seeing as you're struggling with basic shit like attacking the correct defence, or finding a way to melee with something other than a tank, or getting your CC/debuffs to stick -- it's just random frustration.

(Because there is in fact a quite a lot to crticise about Pillars' mechanics. Lagufaeth with effective disabling attacks or phantoms with high Deflection do not fall in that category however.)
 
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I read all of your posts, while I do agree that PoE has design flaws, I think those are not your problems. I think you are a stubborn individual, which is cool but it's an issue in this case. Unless you consider that the necessity to approach the encounters while being mindful of enemy defences and optimising by targeting their weaker defences is a design flaw in itself, which I disagree. I think that's a good basis.

Here are my opinions from earlier this thread:

I agree that PoE is lacking in strategic diversity and aside from a few key encounters, mainly centred in expansions unfortunately also, means that you will basically using same template in most fights diverging only to react to occasional differences. I don't think it is because of character system though, I think it's because lacklustre encounter design and a general lack of strong counter-play. You either start pro-actively and keep that going, using your momentum to overwhelm the fight or start defensive with buffs and win by attrition, for 95% of the fights there is no variance to choosing one of these. This was improved a bit with later patches as encounters were a bit more diversified, and some encounters required specific counter-plays & positioning etc. but it was not on the level of BG2.

Ultimately and unfortunately PoE1 became about more shaping a party around a general strategy and applying that tactically whenever possible rather than playing reactively according to your environment and what you encounter except very few cases which throws you off and requires you to change your tactics; These being Alpine Dragon fight where positioning and strong single target nuking is extremely important, Concelhaut fight especially because his unique spell that can remove a party member from the fight right at the start, second Raedric fight where they are all undead and cast charm, fight against Llengrath because she is a defensive battle-mage that needs to be countered and shut-down directly, WM fight against the Mushroom and WM fight(s) against the Eyeless. Even bounties that are generally challenging do not deviate much from the aforementioned building of a general party strategy and applying that either offensively or defensively.

Overall though I liked the basis of the system, it was just not very well developed and the encounter design except very few cases in a very long game made it rather samey.

The problem is 'on paper' vs 'in game' approach, let's take them damned ghosts as an example. On paper I don't have a problem with their design for the most part (though i'd lower their magic defenses quite a bit, since they don't really have any downsides aside from somewhat limited HP pool), however in-game, with bottlenecking being almost arbitrary (and they have an ability to get past your frontline) and HP bloat / lack of camping supplies on POTD they become a nuisance that doesn't quite feel challenging, yet it forces you to use limited resources which translates to one and one thing only - wasted time. Most if not all of the things i'm butthurt about wouldn't be that big of an issue if not for a stupid rest system (and hp/def bloat to an extent). They didn't design the game in vacuum tho, they knew all too well about loading times and other issues it presents, so how did it make it past the playtesting stage is beyond me. You could argue that switching to HARD would make most of my complaints invalid, but it's not really true is it, the rotten core is still there, it's just not as apparent when everything is so piss easy.

Other than that I agree, it's very samey, after a while, crushing random trash packs gets tiring so I just kick back and set AI to agressive, game basically plays itself, AoEing everything into oblivion, no finesse to it. There are some interesting fights here and there, but it gets lost in the sea of boredom.

Funnily enough, PoE failed to scratch that IE itch, but a new version of a modded to the gills BGT came out recently (sadly, only in russian) and I just went through Irenicus dungeon which was both harder and more exciting than anything I'v seen in PoE so far. I actually used every single consumable (arrows, potions, scrolls and wands) to get out of it and it was glorious, barely having enough, just scraping by with a bit of luck, kiting and managing fleeting resources all the way to the entrance. It's sad how feeble and uninspired PoE looks compared to something that came out 18 years ago (it's heavily modded yes, but 18 years, come on) and it's just a beginning of it, compared to a full game (with DLCs, no less).
 

AwesomeButton

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If we are talking about the encounter on the first floor of the abandoned lighthouse in Ondra's gift, and you have a party of 6, one working strategy is to keep your party close, backliners should be between the area's west wall and frontliners, so that ghosts can't teleport into melee range, and trigger the fight with one character going towards the staircase to the 2nd floor.

Once combat starts, turn off all AI, let the ghosts come to you. They won't be able to teleport behind your back because your back is to the wall, and you have tougher characters guarding the weaker ones. From then on, use summons in order to lock ghosts in engagement and build an outer line of defence, outside of your group, so that ideally only your summons and your tank should be engaged in melee. Use will-targeting attacks to reduce reflex and when reflex is reduced dump fireballs (at level 5 your wizard should have them I believe) on the ghosts. They die very quickly to fire damage. But since you're at TWM1 I assume you've gotten through that particular ghost fight.
 

AwesomeButton

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Other than that I agree, it's very samey, after a while, crushing random trash packs gets tiring so I just kick back and set AI to agressive, game basically plays itself, AoEing everything into oblivion, no finesse to it. There are some interesting fights here and there, but it gets lost in the sea of boredom.
I think this is a problem with PotD in particular. Too numerous and too fast-moving enemies leads to long (in real time) combats where you have this ratio between time paused vs time unpaused that is like 3:1. On hard, combat tends to play more dynamic.

I remember my wife started PoE on Hard but got so frustrated by repetitve combat that at some point she just switched to Story Mode and blew through the content, just in order to watch the character progression and to see the end of the story.

BTW, I strongly sympathize with the "managed it by the skin of my teeth" exprience, it's something I'm chasing after, and abstaining from rest and no-knockouts house rules, has brought me more such moments in PoE.
 
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Parabalus

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HP bloat / lack of camping supplies on POTD they become a nuisance that doesn't quite feel challenging, yet it forces you to use limited resources which translates to one and one thing only - wasted time.

You have a fundamentally wrong approach here.

You should never, ever consider backtracking a legitimate strategy. If you get stuck? Sure, better to retreat than reload and lose hours of progress.

You are treating backtracking for resting as a core mechanic, while it is a cheat/crutch. Backtracking should fill you with a sense of shame and a faint hope of coming back stronger.

You could switch to Hard and never rest in inns or buy camping supplies, using only what you find. You will find more enjoyment that way.

Other than that I agree, it's very samey, after a while, crushing random trash packs gets tiring so I just kick back and set AI to agressive, game basically plays itself, AoEing everything into oblivion, no finesse to it. There are some interesting fights here and there, but it gets lost in the sea of boredom.
I think this is a problem with PotD in particular. Too numerous and too fast-moving enemies leads to long (in real time) combats where you have this ratio between time paused vs time unpaused that is like 3:1. On hard, combat tends to play more dynamic.

Too bad there is no data on IE games pause ratio.

I'm guessing it's lower on trash (since IE trash is much weaker/micro intensive), but spikes higher mage boss battles, while PoE is more constant. Would be cool to compare between the games and how it ties to player enjoyment, the former seems better on paper.
 

Blaine

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The game's overall design is still pretty damned bad any way you slice it, setting combat strategy and difficulty in and of themselves completely aside.

I excoriated PoE in great detail back in 2015, when I played the game through one time and was glad to be finished with it. I'm sure I could dig up those posts. According to Infinitron, White March fixed everything, yet somehow I remain skeptical.

One aspect of vanilla PoE I remember particularly well is that for a game over which Josh Sawyer spent countless hours obsessing quite veganly about game balance and vowing to fix all of the "mistakes" of his cRPG design predecessors, there sure were a lot of trash spells, trash mobs, and frankly a lot of trash everything, for that matter. There were even trash townsfolk, for fuck's sake. That said, I'm sure someone has long since made a mod to remove and/or replace all of the half-elemental backer mannequins and their retarded fanfiction.

:necro:

www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/100-accurate-and-unbiased-breakdown-of-spell-dankness-in-poe.98644/
 
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HP bloat / lack of camping supplies on POTD they become a nuisance that doesn't quite feel challenging, yet it forces you to use limited resources which translates to one and one thing only - wasted time.

You have a fundamentally wrong approach here.

You should never, ever consider backtracking a legitimate strategy. If you get stuck? Sure, better to retreat than reload and lose hours of progress.

You are treating backtracking for resting as a core mechanic, while it is a cheat/crutch. Backtracking should fill you with a sense of shame and a faint hope of coming back stronger.

You could switch to Hard and never rest in inns or buy camping supplies, using only what you find. You will find more enjoyment that way.

Well otherwise it's just autoattacking every trash pack in existence while saving up resources for the fights that matter, which is about as fun as watching paint dry, since 90% of the game is trash packs.
 

Parabalus

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HP bloat / lack of camping supplies on POTD they become a nuisance that doesn't quite feel challenging, yet it forces you to use limited resources which translates to one and one thing only - wasted time.

You have a fundamentally wrong approach here.

You should never, ever consider backtracking a legitimate strategy. If you get stuck? Sure, better to retreat than reload and lose hours of progress.

You are treating backtracking for resting as a core mechanic, while it is a cheat/crutch. Backtracking should fill you with a sense of shame and a faint hope of coming back stronger.

You could switch to Hard and never rest in inns or buy camping supplies, using only what you find. You will find more enjoyment that way.

Well otherwise it's just autoattacking every trash pack in existence while saving up resources for the fights that matter, which is about as fun as watching paint dry, since 90% of the game is trash packs.

Do you have 3 Vancians in your party?

Other classes don't use per-rest resources, even the Vancians don't need them after spell mastery. Usually the complaint is you have so many per encounters it's tedious, not that there aren't enough.
 
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Do you have 3 Vancians in your party?

Other classes don't use per-rest resources, even the Vancians don't need them after spell mastery. Usually the complaint is you have so many per encounters it's tedious, not that there aren't enough.

4, for faster clearing, spell mastery I got so far is level one spells, which isn't particularly useful. Druids shred most of the stuff with AoE and I don't see a point in rationing spells, it takes too long otherwise.

I'm done with this shit game though, uninstalled it already. Let's hope they learned their lessons in Deadfire, I wanted to refresh my memory before it came out, guess it wasn't a good idea. Going to treat myself with BGT playthrough, for the old times sake.
 

Parabalus

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Do you have 3 Vancians in your party?

Other classes don't use per-rest resources, even the Vancians don't need them after spell mastery. Usually the complaint is you have so many per encounters it's tedious, not that there aren't enough.

4, for faster clearing, spell mastery I got so far is level one spells, which isn't particularly useful. Druids shred most of the stuff with AoE and I don't see a point in rationing spells, it takes too long otherwise.

I'm done with this shit game though, uninstalled it already. Let's hope they learned their lessons in Deadfire, I wanted to refresh my memory before it came out, guess it wasn't a good idea. Going to treat myself with BGT playthrough, for the old times sake.

So you have 4 Vancians casters (game has 3 NPCs, so you made them yourself) and complain that you have to rest spam. And you made them for faster clearing.

:happytrollboy:
 

FreeKaner

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This playing on POTD, failing to grasp game's mechanics and getting frustrated with difficulty before even getting into the game then promptly uninstalling explains quite bit about criticisms that's voiced in this forum. While the game is obviously flawed, much of its critics can't even say anything beyond "it's shit", while the few that actually grasped it and didn't like it such as Blaine do give legitimate criticisms.
 
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This playing on POTD, failing to grasp game's mechanics and getting frustrated with difficulty before even getting into the game then promptly uninstalling explains quite bit about criticisms that's voiced in this forum. While the game is obviously flawed, much of its critics can't even say anything beyond "it's shit", while the few that actually grasped it and didn't like it such as Blaine do give legitimate criticisms.

I finished OC (back on release) once already, so there's nothing for me there. On this playthrough I got halfway through WM and realized that I couldn't be bothered with this turd. I pointed out plenty of things that legitimately fucking suck if you can't see it, it's your problem, not mine.

So you have 4 Vancians casters (game has 3 NPCs, so you made them yourself) and complain that you have to rest spam. And you made them for faster clearing.

:happytrollboy:

I got 3 NPCs (durance, elf, little druid) + MC is a druid, enlighten me what META combo should I go for, for faster pack clearing? Rangers are useless (all of my backline is equipped with ranged weapons, so it's about 70% effectiveness of a ranger + actually relevant skills), most melees are auto-attack bots. Unless I go for a cipher/chanter gimmick there's no other composition that makes sense.

You people are full of shit I swear, you'd rather spend 10+ minutes on each fight watching them dummies plunk away at each other, with a sprinkle of a spell here and there instead of actually, you know, PLAYING.

Oh you can pause and set targets for auto attack + some party wide buff and maybe an offensive spell or two, how very tactical. Get the fuck out of here.
 

AwesomeButton

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Too bad there is no data on IE games pause ratio.

I'm guessing it's lower on trash (since IE trash is much weaker/micro intensive), but spikes higher mage boss battles, while PoE is more constant. Would be cool to compare between the games and how it ties to player enjoyment, the former seems better on paper.
It would be an interesting metric to compare, but I am pretty sure that while it will come close in some encounters, PoE will be worse on average.

PoE has, on average, high maintenance (ability-clicking) on every character. BG/IWD have low maintenance of usually 3-4 characters, a bit higher on the remaining 2-3. Why "a bit" - at least in my limited BG experience (no SCS), and IWD experience, a mage or priest-class character won't cast more than a couple of spells even in a bigger combat. In the majority of the time when I play, backliners are shooting slings and bows (thieves).

The main reason for pausing in BG/IWD for me is not to click buttons of abilities, but to assign a target to be attacked (melee or ranged). I also pause in order to redirect a party member who can't find his way efficiently (sometimes they bunch up next to an enemy but only one or two party members are actually reaching him in order to hit, the others are just stacking up doing nothing and you have to specifically point them where to stand), but that's pathfinding in the IE games. Conversely, the usual reason for my pausing in PoE is to queue a cast (ability or spellcast) right after the last one ended, so as to not waste time. The not-waste-time concern exists in PoE more than in BG/IWD, because there is no personal initative round.

And when everybody has some active ability in the beginning of combat, the flow gets broken up by much pausing. Once the per-encounter abilities have been cast, the usual need for pausing in PoE is to try to retreat someone who is low on Endurance, usually a lost cause by the time you start retreating.

Yes, they are trying to address this problem in Deadfire by reducing the max party size to 5, but with the other hand, they are making all spells per-encounter, so I don't know how much the party size reduction will be felt, as a maintenance relief. The other decision would be to cut down on active abilities, but that would have been a much more radical solution, especially since we already saw the uproar among people used to PoE's high maintenance and wrongly equating "requiring more maintenance" with "having tactical depth".

My personal taste: I would prefer to have minimal maintenance on most of my party for small encounters, maybe use 2-3 abilities, depending on the encounter. Such encounters shouldn't last more than 3 minutes real time. For bigger set piece encounters, I'd like to manage heavily my backliners, but only use front liners for blocking enemies from reaching the backliners, and occasionaly for active abilities like knockdown or blinding strike. I don't want to have more than 2 (out of a total of 5) party members whose orders would require me to pause the game. For bigger encounters 5-6 minutes of real time would be best, but 7-8 is getting too much (even ToB boss fights didn't last more than 5 minutes, as far as I recall from a recent playthrough). At least that's how I feel, I'll have to test and play in order to confirm. But fortunately, modding is coming for Deadfire...

Low maintenance and sitting back and watching the combat animations, and bracing for my guys getting hit, is a more intense experience for me, compared to keeping my finger on the spacebar just so I can cast the next spell before the timer runs out - the current PoE combat experience.

Well otherwise it's just autoattacking every trash pack in existence while saving up resources for the fights that matter, which is about as fun as watching paint dry, since 90% of the game is trash packs.
I have noticed in my current playthrough that I will usually clear a whole area without using anything but per-encounter abilities, except for one or two more serious encounters where I would cast everything or nearly everything I've got. On PotD, my wizard's spells get depleted in one big combat, and my priest takes two or three encounters to run out of spells. I try not to rest between encounters in the same area, just to keep the intrigue on.

Can anyone recommend a non-shit non-paid screen recording software that lets me record in 720p? I would make an illustration video of the clearing out of Stalwart Village from ogres when I get some time.
 
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Roguey

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Look guys, I'm doing just fine.

*goes all out and rests after every fight, backtracks to rest after inevitably running out of camping supplies*
 

Prime Junta

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I wonder how he played BG2? He mentioned kiting a lot. If he's used to brute-forcing it with kiting, rest-spamming, and generally brute-forcing it, I would expect that Sawyer's anti-degenerate mechanics would be particularly irksome.
 

fantadomat

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I wonder how he played BG2? He mentioned kiting a lot. If he's used to brute-forcing it with kiting, rest-spamming, and generally brute-forcing it, I would expect that Sawyer's anti-degenerate mechanics would be particularly irksome.
You could brute force your way trough poe,all you have to do is build a decent party.
 

AwesomeButton

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Nothing is overrepresented and you can look in the wiki for where to get any of the unique weapons and decide on when to do it.
 

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