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Piracy Discussion - Discuss!

LundB

Mistakes were made.
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
4,160
Seriously. If you pirate because it's possible for you to get a luxury product you don't want to pay for/can't afford for free with minimal risk, and don't give a fuck, cool, go ahead. It's only the pussies who try to make bullshit rationalisations for their actions that piss me off (plenty of examples itt). I myself give precisely 0 shits about the rights-holders. The main reason I don't pirate isn't any moral issue, but the mere fact that it's simply more convenient and the cost of games is pretty much negligible. If that wasn't the case I'd probably pirate, but I'd be the first to admit I was doing it purely because I could, instead of spinning some self-deceiving web of excuses and rationalisations.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
You are not paying for the information as such; you are paying for the work, time and material that went into it. Hundreds of programmers working overtime, tons of distribution issues to consider, dealing with retailers, and so on.

When you pay to see an artist sing you would not claim that sounds cannot be a product-
 

IDtenT

Menace to sobriety!
Patron
Joined
Jan 21, 2012
Messages
14,727
Location
South Africa; My pronouns are: Banal/Shit/Boring
Divinity: Original Sin
When you pay to see an artist sing you would not claim that sounds cannot be a product-
The artist is performing a service. I honestly do not care how much it cost them to write a song or how much it cost them to train their instruments. I'm only there to have a service rendered of them performing music.

You are not paying for the information as such; you are paying for the work, time and material that went into it. Hundreds of programmers working overtime, tons of distribution issues to consider, dealing with retailers, and so on.
Development costs are irrelevant. If I could have the artists perform for free at my house, with thousands of patrons, I would. Obviously that's not the case, so I'm willing to pay for the service. I could have the artist perform at my house via mp3s but I'll lose a lot in the process. Not unlike I lose by going to piratebay instead of steam.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
But don't you see that it means you are reducing the incentive of becoming a person involved in creating video games? Therefore you will inevitably have, eventually, a smaller pool of video games in the future.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
There is no rationalization involved when it comes to the fact that digital information cannot be a product, as by definition it cannot.

Semantical (okay that's not a word) horseshit.
 

Curious_Tongue

Larpfest
Patron
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Messages
11,905
Location
Australia
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Serpent in the Staglands Codex USB, 2014
I have spent countless hours working on my first novel. My opinion is definitely subjective, but while I would not call it the greatest thing since Harry Potter, it is definitely not as bad as some of the things that are out there (reading Fifty Shades has convinced me of that.)

Quality of your book is below Harry Potter yet above Fifty Shades

:hmmm:
 
Self-Ejected

theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
I have spiritually evolved to not pirating games anymore since years. Now I just watch them on youtube, only to find out they would have sucked anyways. Watching them on youtube also replaces watching TV, because TV sucks even more.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
There is no rationalization involved when it comes to the fact that digital information cannot be a product, as by definition it cannot.
A product is something that is given in exchange for goods, services, or currency - a commodity. A product does not itself explicitly refer to physical goods. Furthermore I think it draws a very pointless line between the product itself (the information as you call it) and the distribution medium (the CD, DVD, the Internet etc.), which while useful for legal definitions (i.e. you own the copy of the disc but not uniquely the information on the disk on a fundamental, global level), kind of breaks down into semantic bullshit in any practical circumstance.

Pirating a game, whether done by copying a CD or downloading an ISO, is effectively the same thing in terms of effect (the game is pirated); only the means of doing so differs. To use an analogy, it's like saying that you stole company secrets by copying a Word document, rather than printing it out, and therefore no crime was committed.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,977
Location
Russia
I have spiritually evolved to not pirating games anymore since years. Now I just watch them on youtube
some worthless apologistic 0,02$ from me ahead
Back in the day, when I bought a game, it meant I bought a system. The ratio of a $ compared to amount of fun I was getting was better than from the movies. A ticket to a movie could cost 300 potatoes or more, depending if I went there during day or night, even 500 potatoes. A movie would entertain me for about an 1.5 hours. A game would cost same or much less, but could entertain me for weeks, if not months. Cause reasons. It could be difficult enough (mm I dunno, like Hitman), replayable and addictive as cocaine (Diablo) or just fucking big (Baldur's Gate saga, Morrowind come to mind). Curiously enough, as 3D and consoles progressed, the value changed and created dissonance and confusion in my head. The movies became more expensive, but price for watching theatrical release stayed same or even went down. Some of them even got to be longer, like Jackson's monsters who would make you sit in a chair for two or three hours. Games, on the other hand, also became expensive, but started to shrank. From buying a gaming system which would produce entertainment on itself and never really get old, I got to more expensive set of moving scenes and pretty pictures.

Developers struggle to get even 20 hours of content for you, which, compared to hundreds you could put into full scale RPG or strategy of old is laughable. But they didn't stop there. Here's that AngryJoe chum who could write for book of records - in his videos, he shouts how a game ends after 14, then 12, even 8 hours. I think his last record was Star Wars kinect or somethin, with 4 or 6 hours of gameplay. Think about it, 6 hours of gameplay must be less than Jackson's LoTR saga in director's cut. Or a DVD full of Indiana Jones movies.

There is a full Babylon 5 collection for a 100$ on Amazon now. That would entertain me for weeks, if not months, depending on how fast I'd watch it. And stories in those moving pictures called modern games do not hold up to something like B5, you know.
You could never tell if some games are worth of paying your money for them nowadays. Not for the story heavy for sure - watching youtube would just spoil it for you. Not for games like Skyrim, cause you'll have to try it out and see what modders did, and then decide. Even not for the indies. Like Expedition: Conquistador, that game looked like a complete mess in the beginning, but as I struggled, I got to love it. And because I couldn't be bothered with abandoning old saves, hey, I finished it. Then bought it from Steam, and finished again. Same with Dark Souls. Heck, at first I scorned at it because of horrible controls and camera, but now I think I've put as many hours in it as in New Vegas. You never know if you buy a game, or a set of cutscenes nowadays. Game must be replayable, or I feel cheated for spending my money on it, because I do not believe in modern $-to-hour ratio.

Of course, it does not justify the moments when I pirate something and finish the game and don't buy it because it's shit, "but it is so short and I spent time downloading it and it will entertain me for an evening, so what the heck". But hey, how about you deal with it, you can hate me and call me a commie. Although it has been a long time since I felt like that, because not only games became shorter, they also became goddamn big, so now I am too lazy to pirate 20 GB of some poorly cracked, DRM heavy laggy garbage. I'd rather watch some old movie I've missed.

Wait, why did I quote about youtube... right, I wanted to say that, yeah, because of all of the above... I'd often watch shit on youtube and say "eeh, I know everything about the game now" and forget about that game. And sometimes I don't cause youtube video wouldn't be enough to get what the game is about.
 
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potatojohn

Arcane
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
2,646
A product is something that is given in exchange for goods, services, or currency - a commodity.
What goods, services or currency am I exchanging with the publisher of a game when I download their game off TPB?
 

octavius

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,685
Location
Bjørgvin
Money morals are good for when you have money.

Back in the Amiga games when I started working, a brand new game would cost me 10% of my monthly net income; cheaper if I bought from UK or Sweden.
Nowadays there's such a huge backlog of free/cheap games, and new games are/will be relatively cheap (at least if you have more patience than a four year old), so I don't think lack of money is much of an excuse longer.

I did some pirating back then, but that was only because I had pirated games virtually thrown at me. And I had the money to buy my favourite games.

Apart from that I have no qualms of pirating games if the only legal copies are only available on Ebay.

And it's very tempting to pirate TV shows instead of being forced to watch some anti-piracy drivel before I am allowed to watch the material that I have actually bought, while the pirates are not being subject to such offensive shit on their pirated copies.
 
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Grim Monk

Arcane
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Messages
1,218
But don't you see that it means you are reducing the incentive of becoming a person involved in creating video games? Therefore you will inevitably have, eventually, a smaller pool of video games in the future.

:hmmm:
A "smaller pool" then (at best) 1 shelf of PC Games at in any store for miles around?


I see the exact opposite happening.

The appearance of a more larger more varied gaming landscape, supported by:

Patronage/Crowd-funding
Episodic Creation
Subscription Based Creation
The Reappearance of Shareware


As well as a larger market overall due to online retail...
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 30, 2012
Messages
7,212
Location
Elevator Of Love
Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The only thing I don't like in original games, are DRM-s. I don't have a problem buying them on Steam, but putting on them Securom, or Allah forbid, Starforce and GFWL on the top of the cake (hello Batman!) is counterproductive. That's why in those cases it's better to go the easy path and apply the crack.
 

Gurkog

Erudite
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
1,373
Location
The Great Northwest
Project: Eternity
I don't pirate, because if a game isn't worth paying for it isn't worth my time to play. Besides... those damn steam sales and humble bundles make it difficult not to pay for more games than I have free time.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,363
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
603e987c9b4192a6184a8146d21125de.jpg
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,881
Wall-o-text:

It's easy for the Gaiman or Notch-types to take the "cool" approach and say, "Pirate, I don't care!" when they've already made millions. A good example of an evolution to that point would be Frictional Games. When Amnesia first came out they basically stated piracy was causing some serious hurt, but then YouTube videos came along and pretty much threw the game into the spotlight. Now they just say oh, we don't care, we have too much cash on hand to care about piracy anymore. The same thing applies to game companies acting like they don't care. No, they do care, but they hold their tongue because every single time a company says piracy has damaged them in any way a horde of self-entitled PC gamers ride up to spew a billion excuses as to why they pirate, why it's okay, and why the guys making their favorite games are actually a bunch of dumbasses. Crysis had a demo and was still the most pirated game of its time. Witcher 2 went totally without DRM and ended up being the most pirated game for like three straight months. And then PC gamers scratch their heads and wonder why so many developers are going multi-platform, or why Asian market models like F2P are coming over, or why companies like Blizzard are creating shit like the auction house.

Conversely, it's also easy for creative types, like myself, who are so poor as to not give a shit if someone pirates their things. Like taxalot, I'd enjoy it if people pirated my work. I have nothing to lose. I make my meager living elsewhere and am pretty much doomed to a penniless existence. Piracy in these cases can be a good way of getting your stuff out there, kinda like the old record stores with their copied albums from unknown bands. I think it's the midlisters -- either corporate or indie -- that actually can be hurt by piracy. If YouTube didn't blow Amnesia up, what would have happened? It wasn't exactly selling like hotcakes from the start, after all...


If I were to have one controversial opinion about piracy it's this: I am firmly convinced that piracy played a notable role in the downfall of Looking Glass Studios and the weakening of Westwood Studios and probably a number of other midlist-type companies that were around in the 90s. Many people have read this article that, while detailed, does not mention piracy at all. It simply skirts around the issue by stating LGS was having some financial problems. Well, it's interesting because back when Thief/SS were contemporary, the only game more pirated on the "servers" I used to look at was Half-Life. And back then distribution cost even more money, but everyone was just copying games onto CDs and throwing them around instead of going out and actually purchasing the game. If we take into account the experience of the Tribes' team, the games being played online were something like 10x the number of games actually sold. These type of numbers have been replicated often, like Doom 3's internal tracking which showed 90% of their games were not installed from purchased copies. Now, a lot of those aren't lost sales. Just as pirates argue, they don't really download every game that they would have otherwise bought. Of course, it's hard to argue about something as intangible as that, but whatever. And in many cases you got the JarlFrank scenario where it's just an issue of availability. But a lot of pirates just do it because it's free. That's the whole goddam point. Even if we're being super generous and say only 10% of that 90% would have actually bought the game, those piracy numbers are so large that 1/10 would have been enough customers to save an ailing company like LGS or Westwood Studios. Companies like id or Valve were also pirated to high heaven -- Doom was probably the most pirated game ever -- but those games were like the rockstars of their era. They could grit their teeth and survive it no problem. LGS and Westwood? No way. LGS in particular had fairly niche titles with complicated gameplay. They needed those sales, but they just kept barely breaking even until they finally fucked up on a game, got a raw business deal, and nosedived.

And then we get the occasional murmur from companies saying "fuck PC-only development, piracy makes it way too hard to survive", but every time nobody trusts it and out come the excuses. It's the companies' fault for whatever reason. I don't buy that shit. I don't think you can pirate 90% of a product's sales and not have it hurt someone somewhere. I'm damn sure piracy has helped a number of dudes, too, but it's impossible for it to be all roses and sunshine for everyone.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,739
Not much to discuss. There's the legal side and then there's the morality side: you can debate the morality but there's no debating the legality. This is true for all forms of piracy.
Legality is absolutely debatable. First, what is legal depends on which country you are in.

Second, most countries today base law on precedent. There are some countries which have deemed the downloading of music via filesharing to be legal, but the distribution of music via filesharing to be illegal. No legal case has tested if uploading a 1MB chunk of a 12MB song is considered distribution.

Additionally, no precedent has been set regarding movies or games but it isn't much of a stretch to say if music is allowed -> music videos are allowed -> music video is a movie -> some games are a series of short movies -> etc.

That is without even considering the illegal portions of EULAs. In some countries the act of selling a digital good that cannot be transferred to another party is, in fact, illegal. It breaks consumer protection laws that allow people to sell their goods second hand if they wish to.

Given that piracy generally results in increased sales, not decreased, and the ramifications of the law potentially being ruled in favor of consumers, copyright holders are in no rush to have things codified in law. They prefer to reap the benefits of piracy (free marketing, don't have to pay to create a demo) while using a misinformation campaign to scare the less-informed into making uninformed purchases.

As Gabe said, if a Russian teenager in his basement can provide a better service than your multinational corporation can, you are doing it wrong.
 

Cool name

Arcane
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
2,149
I don't think you can pirate 90% of a product's sales and not have it hurt someone somewhere. I'm damn sure piracy has helped a number of dudes, too, but it's impossible for it to be all roses and sunshine for everyone.

That's a very short-sighted perspective. Like, I pirate all of my PC games. Still, every single month I run over my card limit no less than several days before the limit does reset and have to cast NyaNyan's Irresistible Puppy Eyes VIII on my dad and boyfriends and the like. Do you have an idea of all the money designers and nightclubs and the like would loss if I were to buy those games? I'm damn sure piracy has hurt a number of doods but it has helped a number of other industries as well, and it is impossible for it to be all roses and sunshine for everyone!

:troll:
 

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