Piracy Discussion - Discuss!

[groke]

The rich-privilege in this thread is sickening.

 

[sser]

I don't think you can pirate 90% of a product's sales and not have it hurt someone somewhere.

I don't tend to get into non-semantic arguments about piracy, but this is clearly the piracy equals a lost sale fallacy rearing its head.

I addressed this. I even gave a generous low-ball number as to how many people who pirate would have otherwise bought the game if piracy wasn't available (1 in 10) -- a "generous" number because it's probably closer to like 50% in the West where literally everyone I know who pirates (including myself) has both the money and service to acquire the things they pirate, they just do it because it's free, and because very few of them tend to pirate things they don't, at the very least, have some interest in getting.

 

[asper]

LGS and Westwood? No way. LGS in particular had fairly niche titles with complicated gameplay. They needed those sales, but they just kept barely breaking even until they finally fucked up on a game, got a raw business deal, and nosedived.

Exactly this. If even most people on this 'hardcore' forum, that laments the disappearance of classic gaming, are so smug about piracy as in this thread, no wonder gaming went into decline. Part of the problem is piracy.

 

[Gord]

I don't think you can pirate 90% of a product's sales and not have it hurt someone somewhere.

I don't tend to get into non-semantic arguments about piracy, but this is clearly the piracy equals a lost sale fallacy rearing its head.

Not really. He didn't say "every pirated game equals a lost sale", he just said that with very high piracy rates some damage is done. Maybe the sales would have "only" doubled if piracy wouldn't have been possible, but it's still an increase. Not everyone who pirates a game falls into "wouldn't buy anyway" category.
Now of course you could say that the initial problem are the expected sales. If I need to sell a gazillion copies to break even, I better make sure that my product is enticing the people to buy it.
OTOH, big publishers are kinda fighting an uphill battle. Even non-shitty ones (and they are rare enough) will often enough still be perceived as a faceless corporation you don't mind to screw over.

As Gabe said, if a Russian teenager in his basement can provide a better service than your multinational corporation can, you are doing it wrong.

About time games on Steam are completely free!

 

[J1M]

I don't think you can pirate 90% of a product's sales and not have it hurt someone somewhere.

I don't tend to get into non-semantic arguments about piracy, but this is clearly the piracy equals a lost sale fallacy rearing its head.

Not really. He didn't say "every pirated game equals a lost sale", he just said that with very high piracy rates some damage is done. Maybe the sales would have "only" doubled if piracy wouldn't have been possible, but it's still an increase. Not everyone who pirates a game falls into "wouldn't buy anyway" category.
Now of course you could say that the initial problem are the expected sales. If I need to sell a gazillion copies to break even, I better make sure that my product is enticing the people to buy it.
OTOH, big publishers are kinda fighting an uphill battle. Even non-shitty ones (and they are rare enough) will often enough still be perceived as a faceless corporation you don't mind to screw over.

As Gabe said, if a Russian teenager in his basement can provide a better service than your multinational corporation can, you are doing it wrong.

About time games on Steam are completely free!

I wasn't aware Russian viruses automatically patched my game library for me.

 

[J1M]

LGS and Westwood? No way. LGS in particular had fairly niche titles with complicated gameplay. They needed those sales, but they just kept barely breaking even until they finally fucked up on a game, got a raw business deal, and nosedived.

Exactly this. If even most people on this 'hardcore' forum, that laments the disappearance of classic gaming, are so smug about piracy as in this thread, no wonder gaming went into decline. Part of the problem is piracy.

Considering how much money people around here throw at Kickstarted RPGs, it is quite clear that the problem has always been publishers chasing the mainstream audience.

 

[Gord]

I have not much doubt that all those Kickstarters will be pirated just as much.
It probably doesn't matter as much with the KS model, though, but it will show again that quality or creator/origin are not that important as piracy-apologists like to believe - at least if indie games are anything to go by.

 

[IDtenT]

I don't think you can pirate 90% of a product's sales and not have it hurt someone somewhere.

I don't tend to get into non-semantic arguments about piracy, but this is clearly the piracy equals a lost sale fallacy rearing its head.

I addressed this.

You can address it as much as you like. That statement you made there clearly equates piracy with sales. That is that piracy makes up 90% of a product's sales, which is clearly impossible since piracy is not a sale. The sales make up the sales portion.

I have not much doubt that all those Kickstarters will be pirated just as much.
It probably doesn't matter as much with the KS model, though, but it will show again that quality or creator/origin are not that important as piracy-apologists like to believe - at least if indie games are anything to go by.

There is a good argument why you /should/ pirate KS games, seeing as the games were already commissioned by the players and the devs shouldn't be profiting at all from the end product (which again is a misnomer).

 

[Gord]

There is a good argument why you /should/ pirate KS games, seeing as the games were already commissioned by the players and the devs shouldn't be profiting at all from the end product (which again is a misnomer).

They shouldn't? Because a few thousand people funded the development it's not automatically open source and free for everyone, is it?
Wake me up when real communism (or the Star Trek variant, I always liked that one) has finally arrived, but until then work on your logic.

 

[IDtenT]

There is a good argument why you /should/ pirate KS games, seeing as the games were already commissioned by the players and the devs shouldn't be profiting at all from the end product (which again is a misnomer).

They shouldn't? Because a few thousand people funded the development it's not automatically open source and free for everyone, is it?

I did not comment on the rights of the commissioners, but for the sake of argument was assumed to be non-existent (as it is in reality) - so there is nothing to be wavered or open sourced.

Unlike the semantic argument, there is clear ideological/ethical reasoning going on here that might differ from person to person. I merely said there was a good argument as to why someone would feel more at ease with pirating a KS game than a publisher funded game.

 

[Gord]

I merely said there was a good argument as to why someone would feel more at ease with pirating a KS game than a publisher funded game.

That's interesting, as I would assume that people would have bigger problems with pirating such games, since many Kickstarter projects make a point that people are supporting self-publishing devs that are free of publisher interests. I.e. you get a game that couldn't be made otherwise and if you pirate that you are hurting the devs, not some faceless company.

Backers are making that possible, and as a result receive the game cheaper/earlier/in an enhanced version.
For many projects Kickstarter isn't even the only source of income, so they are still relying on sales - it's not that the Kickstarter will pay for everything and then some.

 

[sser]

I don't think you can pirate 90% of a product's sales and not have it hurt someone somewhere.

I don't tend to get into non-semantic arguments about piracy, but this is clearly the piracy equals a lost sale fallacy rearing its head.

I addressed this.

You can address it as much as you like. That statement you made there clearly equates piracy with sales. That is that piracy makes up 90% of a product's sales, which is clearly impossible since piracy is not a sale. The sales make up the sales portion.

Semantics. Did you read the above paragraph where I went into more detail? The gist was that -- for many games -- every ten copies being played, nine of them were pirated. And my point was that even if you take a low number like 10% of that 90% piracy and say those were the people would have bought the game sans-piracy, then you're possibly looking at different futures for a number of companies. When a meager 10% of those piracy numbers can effectively double the sales of a game, some companies are going to be hurt when they're not there -- or they used to be because what really ends up happening now, and is without assumption, is that piracy becomes just another cost of business. And whatever one thinks of piracy, that's how companies are going to approach the market when it comes to any PC-related product. Sometimes that's a good thing, and sometimes it's not, but the effects are pretty damn real.

 

[Direwolf]

I am just doing my part trying to make sure that game industry goes down in flames. Maybe someone gets killed in the process as well.

 

[LundB]

The rich-privilege in this thread is sickening.

Boo fucking hoo. Like I said last time this discussion happened:

Games are a luxury item, and if you want it but can't afford it (or don't feel like paying for it), well that's life. Hell, most new AAA games drop to $10-20 USD within months, and if you're playing them on release you presumably have a decent computer so you're obviously not fucking destitute. Can't afford games? Well I bet you can't afford a yacht either, but I'm not gonna cry for you.

Games are a luxury, not an indispensable human right. Again, if you pirate because you can, and don't feel like spending money, cool. Using OMG THEY ARE TOO EXPENSIVE AND I CAN'T AFFORD THEM as some sort of moral justification is just weak and childish.

If you take what you want for free because you have the power to do so, with that as its own justification (entitled to whatever you have the power to take), great. If you take what you want because you think it's oh so unfair and you're somehow entitled to luxury items you cannot afford because boo hoo rich people, you're a faggot.

 

[groke]

LundB, bro, have you ever seen anyone on this forum use that form of the word "privilege" sincerely?

Maybe all that rich-guilt is making you jump to conclusions.

 

[LundB]

LundB, bro, have you ever seen anyone on this forum use that form of the word "privilege" sincerely?

Maybe all that rich-guilt is making you jump to conclusions.

I figured you were probably joking, but the 'games are too expensive' defense is one I have seen all too many times on the Codex and elsewhere. Figured your post was as good as any to use as an excuse to go off about it.

And unfortunately, I have seen privilege used sincerely on the Dex. Not often, but it has happened.

 

[Telengard]

And then we get the occasional murmur from companies saying "fuck PC-only development, piracy makes it way too hard to survive", but every time nobody trusts it and out come the excuses. It's the companies' fault for whatever reason. I don't buy that shit. I don't think you can pirate 90% of a product's sales and not have it hurt someone somewhere. I'm damn sure piracy has helped a number of dudes, too, but it's impossible for it to be all roses and sunshine for everyone.

The 90% piracy rate quote is for worldwide piracy rates. In the west, piracy is more around 20-30%. The stats get skewed by places like China. And the industry is not going to be able to get people who make $1 an hour to pay western prices for games. But they keep hoping. If they could just figure out how to make the Chinese pay a full year's wages $60 on a single game, they'd make billions.

 

[Gord]

This is actually a valid point and a big problem with most statistics on the topic: We now relatively little about how trustworthy they are.
Which also means that people will always reject the statistics they don't like...

 

[sser]

And then we get the occasional murmur from companies saying "fuck PC-only development, piracy makes it way too hard to survive", but every time nobody trusts it and out come the excuses. It's the companies' fault for whatever reason. I don't buy that shit. I don't think you can pirate 90% of a product's sales and not have it hurt someone somewhere. I'm damn sure piracy has helped a number of dudes, too, but it's impossible for it to be all roses and sunshine for everyone.

The 90% piracy rate quote is for worldwide piracy rates. In the west, piracy is more around 20-30%. The stats get skewed by places like China. And the industry is not going to be able to get people who make $1 an hour to pay western prices for games. But they keep hoping. If they could just figure out how to make the Chinese pay a full year's wages $60 on a single game, they'd make billions.

I'd say piracy in the West is probably more in the 50-80 range based on whatever game it is, but yeah you're right. Places in Asia were basically like 99% for a long time. Service and availability is the best way to combat piracy, IMO.

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

Besides... those damn steam sales and humble bundles make it difficult not to pay for more games than I have free time.

Those are what make my non-piracy lifestyle possible. That and survey sites.

 

[Dr Tomo]

Anyway another necro

I find the reasons for piracy in this thread amusing. Also yes I pirate things as well and only when the service sucks like movies and books (at least 1TB) if I can't find legal alternatives that doesn't beat torrenting.
[QUOTE]
Pirates Jump on “The Walking Dead” Despite Legal Options
[/QUOTE]

The start of the fourth season of “The Walking Dead” has resulted in a worldwide piracy craze. More than half a million people downloaded a copy of the show during the first few hours following its premiere, despite efforts to minimize the release lag to 24 hours in 125 countries. Fox had hopes that the global release would curb online piracy but thus far there is little evidence that this is the case, not even in the U.S. where AMC streams the show for free.

For years international TV-fans have complained about long release delays.
In some cases people had to wait up to a year to view their favorite show after the U.S. release, which is unacceptable for most die-hard fans.

Responding to this criticism the TV industry has systematically improved traditional release windows. The recent premiere of The Walking Dead’s fourth season is a prime example of how the industry is adapting to the signals pirates have been sending for years.

To remove one of the incentives for people to grab an unauthorized copy of the show, Fox International Channels premiered the show in 125 countries a day after it first aired on US television.

“We want to prevent the spoilers for sure, we also want to make sure [international viewers] get the best version of the show — not some pirated version,” Liz Dolan, Fox International Channel’s chief marketing officer told The Wrap.

Unfortunately for Fox, however, pirated versions are available in better quality than most legal streaming options. Also, the download numbers have not declined, quite the opposite.

Data gathered by TorrentFreak shows that 16 hours after the first episode appeared online more than half a million people had grabbed a copy through one of many torrent sites. This is more than last year’s season premiere, despite the legal viewing options.

Interestingly, most downloaders come from the U.S. where there is no release lag at all.

Based on a sample of more than 30,000 people who shared the show via a BitTorrent client, we see that the United States is in the lead with 15.5 percent of the total. This means that even though people can stream the episode for free, many still preferred to download it through a torrent site.

In the U.K and Australia there was a slight delay but even legal availability couldn’t prevent people from pirating the season opening. With 11.7 and 10.1 percent these countries are second and third respectively. The Philippines and Canada complete the top five with 8.8 and 6.8 percent of the total.

sample N=33,918
# Country % City %
torrentfreak.com
1 United States 15.5% London 3.8%
2 United Kingdom 11.7% Melbourne 2.8%
3 Australia 10.1% Manila 2.3%
4 Philippines 8.8% Sydney 1.8%
5 Canada 6.8% Stockholm 1.7%
6 Brazil 3.3% Lisbon 1.4%
7 The Netherlands 2.7% Athens 1.3%
8 Sweden 2.5% Brisbane 1.2%
9 France 2.3% Helsinki 1.1%
10 Poland 2.2% Amsterdam 1.1%
Fox has to be applauded for making the show available quickly in so many territories, something that was unthinkable half a decade ago. It’s safe to say that the download numbers would have been much higher without these efforts, although at the moment piracy is far from defeated.

In part this might be because some prefer the unauthorized download option simply out of habit. This is especially true for U.S. file-sharers. As we reported earlier this year, many people who pay for a Netflix subscription downloaded Netflix’s exclusive Arrested Development release, preferring the download experience over online streaming.

There is also another group, one that simply doesn’t want to pay for a subscription, which is required in Australia for example. It’s also possible that they are just unhappy with the viewing options currently on offer. In many countries viewers still have to tune in at a fixed time slot while many prefer to program their own viewing schedule.

The challenge for the entertainment industry is to take away these leftover incentives, and make sure that the legal options become the default. For some people it may be too late to be converted, but for most there’s still hope.

http://torrentfreak.com/pirates-jump-on-the-walking-dead-despite-legal-options-131014/

 

[Curious_Tongue]

Some pirate streaming sites are so convenient and fast that there's nothing that pay sites can do to add the experience.

I don't bother with torrents because seeds are always a bitch, and upload sites are too slow. A good video stream and orbit downloader is much easier imo.

 

[taxalot]

Agassi made a very interesting point. People pirating might not support the game industry (but then, we could argue about how much you support it by buying something on GoG or on Steam sales, or even a used game), but that money saved is definitely going elsewhere, supporting maybe more deserving industries. You know. Stuff that gives us, like, quality food (Cut gaming budget, you can afford to go organic).

As for me, I do not give much of a damn. Is the threat of piracy, the absolute worse case scenario, the one where people would only design games for the pleasure of doing so and not for money ? Oh wow. What a shame that would be. Do you know how many writers live off their writing ? Do you know how many people write books, in total ?

 

[Burning Bridges]

I bought a lot of games in the glorious 90s, and up to the point of decline in 2005, hundreds and thousands of Deutschmark went to support good games, and it didn't stop the decline.

Hence everything said in this thread is moot and everyone can pirate or not pirate, it will not change a damn thing.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Production of games is industry and need cooperation of many people not a hobby of one lunatic assassinate gentleman and Commissar would like to play more than one game a twenty years besides (Jabs at Grimoire and AoD). What Industry needs is sector catering to audience like Codexers; we got it thanks to Kickstarter but needs you and your Jewgold too.

What You have done for Stalin ?

Spoiler

But Bethpizda, Biowhore and other trash producers and pedlers can frack themselves; Pirating them is act of Patriotism.