Editorial Planescape: Torment - Retrospective

[Andyman Messiah]

PS:T had good, involving story. That's it really.

Yes, but what a good, involving story it was!

Combat sucked but nobody should play any rpg and expect to be blown away by hacking rats to pieces. Combat is always boring and generally just a gap between story point A and story point B.

But does that alone make it a good game?

I do think so. Fuck combat. I hit rat with axe and rat broke, now let's have some more text.

 

[Azarkon]

Rose-tinted glasses.

All Torment combat was basically right-click and surround. That, and running past enemies you can't fight (ie the shadows in FoR) because you dumped all your points into WIS CHR and INT.

 

[Lim-Lim]

The bottom line is that PST tried new stuff and had developed characters, something still lacking in most games. No matter it's shortcomings the game simply must be praised and it must be encouraged that developers TRY NEW THINGS.

Japs were doing this "new stuff" for 10 years before PST.

Oh, and "developed characters" is this:

Yes Mondblut, we all know your PCs could be a cardboard box so long as you have your precious statistics.

+1.
At this rate, mondblut is going to be the second skyway.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Oh, and "developed characters" is this:

Isn't this guy Mister 18 ? He was pretty popular in AD&D too.

 

[Volourn]

"Anyway, what part do you disagree with - do you honestly believe that recent games are more complex than PS:T? As I said, I'm certainly not saying PS:T is complex - it certainly isn't. But games have got ever more simplistic since. It's understandable that a journalist or blogger who has only played games in the last 10 years (it's now quite a long time since the days of RoA and JA2) would think that PS:T is comparatively complex. "

Total utter bullshit.

 

[Crispy]

Has anyone ever figured out why Volourn never uses the quote function?

 

[Krash]

PS:T had good, involving story. That's it really.

Yes, but what a good, involving story it was!

Combat sucked but nobody should play any rpg and expect to be blown away by hacking rats to pieces. Combat is always boring and generally just a gap between story point A and story point B.

Good story and challenging combat aren't mutually exclusive. I want both, but I guess I'm picky that way.

So Morte's special attack animation is a perfect example of combat complexity - you can even upgrade its damage! A spreadsheet please, I can't even imagine all the numbers and variables that must be involved.

RPGFan is apparently a moron.

Not sure if that's what he's trying to say, but abilities that are actually tied to the story and gameworld are p. cool in my book. Far more fun than generic abilities you just gain by throwing a few points their way

 

[Melcar]

Bullshit.

 

[Xor]

Has anyone ever figured out why Volourn never uses the quote function?

He's too oldschool.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Has anyone ever figured out why Volourn never uses the quote function?

He's too oldschool.

~Qwinn

 

[PlanHex]

So developers, cut the crap, go play Planescape: Torment, and remember what video games are capable of being.

Choose your own adventure books?

 

[Alex]

Bullshit.

Melcar, I agree with you that a good story doesn't make a good game, but Planescape wasn't just a good, static story. It was an interactive story. Sure, it didn't have that much in the consequence side of C&C, but it did a very good job of making the player feel part of the story. And that... well that doesn't make it a good game either, at least for a more rigorous definition of game. But it does make it a good interactive "thing", which I figure, is close enough to be interesting to a lot of people who like games.

Also, what the heck is this supposed to mean?

 

[Alex]

The bottom line is that PST tried new stuff and had developed characters, something still lacking in most games. No matter it's shortcomings the game simply must be praised and it must be encouraged that developers TRY NEW THINGS.

Japs were doing this "new stuff" for 10 years before PST.

Oh, and "developed characters" is this:

Give it a rest, Mondblut. Yes, we know this isn't the kind of game you like, but it instead of trolling this kind of thread, why don't you do something constructive? Maybe write a mini article about what you found interesting in more "gamist" rpgs? You know, raise awareness to your "side"? I think you have a lot of knowledge about older rpgs and I am sure that there are quite a few insights we could gain from you on the subject...

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

I like that there's a PIE stat.

 

[oneself]

So..despite the fact that PST is a codex approved RPG, it still gets criticized?

Maybe it's not the game, but your standards set too high.

 

[Murk]

PS:T had good, involving story. That's it really.

It had a ridiculous level of interactivity as well - how many seemingly-random NPCs can you talk to and end up learning new thieving skills, triggering memories, having your allies interject and shed light on the npc, themselves, or some other event, or how many other games allowed the level of inspection and investigation of the game world's surroundings?

That's not just storyline, that's actual character based interaction with the setting, areas, other characters, and even the meta-plot itself. You know, the main thing that RPGs are about.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I like that there's a PIE stat.

I wonder if it reduces possibility of bellyaches.

So..despite the fact that PST is a codex approved RPG, it still gets criticized?

Nothing is spared. Complacency leads to shit, shit leads to decline, decline leads to oblivion.

Maybe it's not the game, but your standards set too high.

Almost...unrealistic.

 

[Volourn]

Just because it's 'Codex approved' doesn't mean every Codexer approved of it or even those who approve of it believe it's perfect. Fuckin' moran.

 

[oneself]

Nothing is spared. Complacency leads to shit, shit leads to decline, decline leads to oblivion.

Funny how critics, which offers little constructive value think that they are making a difference. Decline or not, us yelling behind close doors will delay the plunge into oblivion


No amount of criticism can change PST's status as a holy grail of RPG, I would just leave it alone and go back to Alpha Protocol

Volourn: Prove that perfection exists, therefore it can be actively persuited

 

[Azrael the cat]

PS:T had good, involving story. That's it really.

It had a ridiculous level of interactivity as well - how many seemingly-random NPCs can you talk to and end up learning new thieving skills, triggering memories, having your allies interject and shed light on the npc, themselves, or some other event, or how many other games allowed the level of inspection and investigation of the game world's surroundings?

That's not just storyline, that's actual character based interaction with the setting, areas, other characters, and even the meta-plot itself. You know, the main thing that RPGs are about.

True that. You can call it an adventure game (with skills, classes and combat) but not a pseudo book or film. The difference is that in PS:T you control the interaction, exploring and discovering new things as you go. Yes, it's a narrative product, but it's a different kind of narrative product to book or film and frankly I really don't think PS:T would work as in either of those media.

Doesn't mean that it's 'the' formula for good games. It's silly to say 'is that enough to make it a good game?' Different games can be good for different reasons. One game can be good due to great combat, another can be good due to great C+C, another can be great for presenting an amazingly immersive world. Yes, we'd love it if one game can do all those things, but no game ever has, and given resource limitations and the fact that some of those aims clash, it's likely that no game ever will.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I like that there's a PIE stat.

I wonder if it reduces possibility of bellyaches.

Sure, it's a well-documented fact that piety promotes digestion:

Sometimes, in spite of a low Digestion, an extremely devoted and persevering character can devour things just as quickly as his or her hard-stomached friends.

 

[Mrowak]

Complacency leads to shit, shit leads to decline, decline leads to oblivion.

shit leads to decline, decline leads to oblivion.

decline leads to oblivion.

leads to oblivion.

to oblivion.

oblivion.

You've nailed it alright. Intentionally, I presume.

Maybe it's not the game, but your standards set too high.

Almost...unrealistic.

PS:T is not perfect. I have yet to find a game that would 100% suit my tastes. We all have our unrealistic ideal

It is the fact that we here can be completely fair even with the games we love that separates us from the rest of the crowd, which - let's face it - is the sole source of pride for every true Codexer (word of a compulsive lurker ). The moment we all praised one game univocally for the same reason, without finding shitloads things to complain about, would mark the end of this place.

 

[mondblut]

Maybe write a mini article about what you found interesting in more "gamist" rpgs? You know, raise awareness to your "side"?

As a matter of fact, by trolling these kinds of threads for the past couple of years I *did* raise immense awareness to my side. 3 years ago, a codexer who voiced that there were RPGs predating Fallout would be hunted down and killed. Now, the likes of Dicksmoker are crying that the Codex is overrun by "mondblutians" and nobody likes visual novels anymore. Victory at sea!

 

[MetalCraze]

"Visual novels" also had good gameplay solutions some years ago. MotB with its spirit meter made dialogues part of the gameplay, which could nerf or empower your character instead of meaningless LARP'ing (I mention it because it was the last one where they -tried-). Today these games are just a bunch of cutscenes for people with ADD.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Maybe write a mini article about what you found interesting in more "gamist" rpgs? You know, raise awareness to your "side"?

As a matter of fact, by trolling these kinds of threads for the past couple of years I *did* raise immense awareness to my side. 3 years ago, a codexer who voiced that there were RPGs predating Fallout would be hunted down and killed. Now, the likes of Dicksmoker are crying that the Codex is overrun by "mondblutians" and nobody likes visual novels anymore. Victory at sea!

Yeah, but Dicksmoker is a dumbfuck. And while I don't share your narrow view on RPGs, mondblut, I at least respect it (and your consistency). And honestly, I enjoy dungeon crawlers a ton, and I find them to be a necessary component of the larger RPG genre.

Fallout is still my favorite, though.