Torment Planescape Torments Me

[jancobblepot]

Mapping out the place, talking to Nordom, and fighting that robot wizard at the end was fun. What wasn't fun was how it spammed the same combat encounter in every single room. I reached the point where I had to slam on the spacebar and move TNO to one of the exits because it was just so painfully long and tedious. That may have been intentional, but it was still a really bad idea.

I think that was the point of that maze, so... It did an excelent job.

 

[Roguey]

Purposely bad design isn't something that should be encouraged (at least for such a long stretch of time). There's a point where humor-through-repetition stops being funny and it crosses that line quickly.

 

[DraQ]

I thought it was obvious that modron maze was sort of in-world deconstruction of dungeon crawl. It was annoying as fuck and pointless without taking this iinto account, but in the context it was quite hilarious.

But then again, a chain is always only as strong as its weakest link. I dare say PS:T is a perfect example of this

So, basically, all games are turds.

 

[RatFink]

Nice try, assburger. Tell me more about the Story, Dialogue, and Level design in poker. Oh, I take it poker is not a game. Neither is football. What about Civilization?

you are talking shit!

playing a game you are taking part as a player in a world described by a set of rules. your motivation in the games you chose are in the case of poker to be the last one standing, or win as much coin as you can in each round. so poker does have a story/narrative when seen as a motivation to complete the game. same in planescape torment or any other game. the story is there to encourage you to go on.

planescape torment = you lost your memory and need to get it back from there on the story unfolds
poker = a couple of players try to outwit each other. from there on the story unfolds
football = two teams "wrestle" for technical supremacy with a ball by kicking it into the enemies goal. from there on the story unfolds
civilization = ..well you basically start at 0 to lead your civilization to wealth and glory. from there on the story unfolds

even if the story is not presented by cinematics/text it is still there. every game needs and every game HAS a story/narrative. Sometimes more restrictive and sometimes to be shaped more or less by your own imagination, or inside a certain set of ludic rules. so how you go about your business is up to you and up to the rules. this is how storytelling in games work. just because some games are more cinematic/wordy does not mean less cinematic/wordy games do not have a story.

dialogue or discours is represented by interacting with npcs/other players of the game/or in your civilization example other civilizations.

planescape torment = interaction with npcs, the world
Poker = interaction with other players, the dealer, the cards
football = interaction with the ball other players, the fans, the referee
civilization = interaction with other civilization and your inhabitants of your civilization(see if theyre happy enough..well to be honest that was a guess on my part i dont know if it is of any importance how happy your little guys are..)

there you have your dialogue/discourse which happens in EVERY ludic environment.
Dialogue..amongst other things = an exchange of ideas and opinions. playing a hand thinking it is good, or kicking a ball at a goal thinking it will score is dialogue at the very least between you and the goal keeper.

level design is the shape or world of the game in which you have to follow it's certain set of rules

planescape torment = the planes with a very distinct set of rules which you find out by dialogue
poker = the poker table(you could use any table but there is a distinct one that comes to mind when thinking of poker) which let's you to put the cards and the chips on. well basically any flat, level surface would suffice, but anything lopsided wouldnt allow the game to be played. so there is a level design.
football = a field of a certain size, two goals.
civilization = the world map

these are all level designs because these make up the gameworld.


these might not be the main reasons why the games you chose are played.
But you trying to piss all over captain shreks argument and you trying to corner him with your arrogant superficial knowledge is just too much.

if you like it or not, you are talking shit.
and it is kinda sad to have you as a dumb little shit who is obviously retarded beyond all description call everyone with a better grasp on gaming concepts..or concepts in general an assburger. that is a pretty easy way to display yourself as the dimwitted cuntface that you are. and your exceedingly good at that...

 

[DraQ]

RatFink fails his resist troll throw.

 

[RatFink]

RatFink fails his resist troll throw.

the dice have never been good to me..sustained a severe sanity loss too

 

[CappenVarra]

ITT we've had many attempts of discussing OP's points rationally, which were mostly ignored, and only resulted in more retarded shit arguments, and more retarded trolls deigning to share their "worthwhile" opinions. While we could continue to bring up rational arguments dismissing retarded claims, it would only result in more retarded claims being spewed forth by the obvious idiots who think they are posting pure opinion gold. And I, for one, don't see any upside to continuing until this becomes the longest thread on the codex, fueled by retarded posters who ignore any rational counter-argument brought to the discussion.

If "the white visitation" had an airport code, I would definitely fly there and laugh at the edgy, oh-so-cool-and-ever-dismissing genius (perfectly represented by the douchebag avatar with the Castanovian haircut). And while there is a number of things I could do or say to elevate the level of hostility (there is no other word) in this thread, none of them are worse than the following: I wish all you retards to spend the rest of your lives playing games as opposite from Planescape: Torment as possible. I wish you to only ever get to play games that perfectly and literally represent your opinions stated in this thread. I wish you to have much great fun living with your inner Mastermind, as strong as he has manifested in everything you have said. And I wish your pirated copy of PST to refuse to work at any point in the future when you're desperate for any game worth playing.

Good night, and good luck.

 

[Castanova]

If "the white visitation" had an airport code, I would definitely fly there and laugh at the edgy, oh-so-cool-and-ever-dismissing genius (perfectly represented by the douchebag avatar with the Castanovian haircut).

You're trying way, way too hard. I didn't make this thread to be cool. I'd venture to say that no one in the history of RPG Codex has ever achieved an appreciation of coolness factor by posting here, regardless of the content of the post. I also haven't dismissed anything, at all. It's kind of ironic that you say that, actually -- you're the one who is ever-present in this thread, dismissing people's arguments with ad hominems. Not even just ad hominems... you're trying to make fun of me via my forum avatar. I guess when your argument is "I'M SMARTER THAN YOU AND I CAN PROVE IT BECAUSE I LIKED PST LOLOLOLOLOLOL" then I don't blame you for running out of substance.

I wish all you retards to spend the rest of your lives playing games as opposite from Planescape: Torment as possible. I wish you to only ever get to play games that perfectly and literally represent your opinions stated in this thread.

I don't want to play games that are the polar opposite of PST. That would imply a lack of intelligence on the part of the creators. But if I'm damned to play video games that are well designed, then that sounds pretty good to me.

And I wish your pirated copy of PST to refuse to work at any point in the future when you're desperate for any game worth playing.

Unfortunately for you, I bought the game on GOG. That means I have all the time in the world, if I so desire, to use it as a case study of how not to design a game. I could also use it as a case study in good writing but, then, I'd get more mileage out of written works by even more talented writers.

 

[314159]

you are talking shit

NO U

playing a game you are taking part as a player in a world described by a set of rules. your motivation in the games

Please, nigger. I'm not interested in your interpretation of game theory

so poker does have a story/narrative when seen as a motivation to complete the game

I have a feeling you're trying to say something. So what's that?

sto·ry 1 (stôr, str)
n. pl. sto·ries
1. An account or recital of an event or a series of events, either true or fictitious, as:
a. An account or report regarding the facts of an event or group of events: The witness changed her story under questioning.
b. An anecdote: came back from the trip with some good stories.
c. A lie: told us a story about the dog eating the cookies.
2.
a. A usually fictional prose or verse narrative intended to interest or amuse the hearer or reader; a tale.
b. A short story.
3. The plot of a narrative or dramatic work.
4. A news article or broadcast.
5. Something viewed as or providing material for a literary or journalistic treatment: "He was colorful, he was charismatic, he was controversial, he was a good story" (Terry Ann Knopf).
6. The background information regarding something: What's the story on these unpaid bills?
7. Romantic legend or tradition: a hero known to us in story.

poker = a couple of players try to outwit each other. from there on the story unfolds
football = two teams "wrestle" for technical supremacy with a ball by kicking it into the enemies goal. from there on the story unfolds
civilization = ..well you basically start at 0 to lead your civilization to wealth and glory. from there on the story unfolds

Would you kindly elaborate on how "an account or recital of an event or a series of events" unfolds in football? I thought it's the events themselves that unfold?

dialogue or discours is represented by interacting with npcs/other players of the game/or in your civilization example other civilizations.
planescape torment = interaction with npcs, the world
Poker = interaction with other players, the dealer, the cards
football = interaction with the ball other players, the fans, the referee
civilization = interaction with other civilization and your inhabitants of your civilization(see if theyre happy enough..well to be honest that was a guess on my part i dont know if it is of any importance how happy your little guys are..)

Diablo=interaction with monsters. It's even stat based. And people bitch about lack of stat based dialogues in computer games

Dialogue..amongst other things = an exchange of ideas and opinions. playing a hand thinking it is good, or kicking a ball at a goal thinking it will score is dialogue at the very least between you and the goal keeper

Not sure if serious
What about boxing, is it also a dialogue???
What about digging trenches, is that a dialogue between you and the Earth?

level design is the shape or world of the game in which you have to follow it's certain set of rules
planescape torment = the planes with a very distinct set of rules which you find out by dialogue
poker = the poker table(you could use any table but there is a distinct one that comes to mind when thinking of poker) which let's you to put the cards and the chips on. well basically any flat, level surface would suffice, but anything lopsided wouldnt allow the game to be played. so there is a level design.
football = a field of a certain size, two goals.
civilization = the world map

Man, that's fucking brilliant What about rock-paper-scissors?

these might not be the main reasons why the games you chose are played.
But you trying to piss all over captain shreks argument and you trying to corner him with your arrogant superficial knowledge is just too much.

if you like it or not, you are talking shit.
and it is kinda sad to have you as a dumb little shit who is obviously retarded beyond all description call everyone with a better grasp on gaming concepts..or concepts in general an assburger. that is a pretty easy way to display yourself as the dimwitted cuntface that you are. and your exceedingly good at that...

Why so butthurt, kid?

 

[Castanova]

RatFink, you get points for effort but you're misguided in some of your arguments.

so poker does have a story/narrative when seen as a motivation to complete the game. same in planescape torment or any other game. the story is there to encourage you to go on.

This is just blatantly false. A story in a game is something that is written by a human writer, or dynamically written by a computer "writer" (in the case of emergent storylines). A story in a game is NOT the player's struggle to achieve the win condition. That's called... gameplay.

Yes, after you play a poker game, you could tell what happened as a story but that doesn't mean the GAME has a story. It just means your life, in review, has a sequence of events that can be arranged into a story. Under your definition, any activity that you could possibly engage in has a story.

You even admit you're wrong:

sometimes to be shaped more or less by your own imagination

I mean, just read any of the thousands upon thousands of game reviews written by a massive cross-section of independent sources about, say, action games or whatever. Many of these reviews complain of a lack of story. Definitions of terms stand upon the consensus. Just because you believe poker has a storyline doesn't make it reality.



I was going to write more but 314159 beat me to it.

 

[Elzair]

ENOUGH WITH THE "GAMEPLAY" FAGGOTRY!!!

 

[Elzair]

Here is what Wittgenstein had to say about the definition of a game (via Wikipedia).

Ludwig Wittgenstein was probably the first academic philosopher to address the definition of the word game. In his Philosophical Investigations,[5] Wittgenstein demonstrated that the elements of games, such as play, rules, and competition, all fail to adequately define what games are. Wittgenstein concluded that people apply the term game to a range of disparate human activities that bear to one another only what one might call family resemblances.

 

[Castanova]

While it's not surprising that it's difficult to define what a game is, that article you linked is kind of dumb. He creates strawmen by inventing silly words that apply to passive mediums.

He also says things that are obviously false:

"This game has great gameplay but shitty graphics."

This means exactly the same as:

"This is a great game but it has shitty graphics."

Except it doesn't mean the same. The first sentence doesn't describe whether you liked the game or not. The second one does. A cursory glance at any mainstream message board will disprove his point thanks to posts by idiots who have conversations like "THIS GAME SUCKS"... "Why, may I ask?" ... "THE GRAPHICS LOOK LIKE SHIT"

 

[DragoFireheart]

Interesting read, if a bit on the angry side.

 

[DragoFireheart]

While it's not surprising that it's difficult to define what a game is, that article you linked is kind of dumb. He creates strawmen by inventing silly words that apply to passive mediums.

He also says things that are obviously false:

"This game has great gameplay but shitty graphics."

This means exactly the same as:

"This is a great game but it has shitty graphics."

Except it doesn't mean the same. The first sentence doesn't describe whether you liked the game or not. The second one does. A cursory glance at any mainstream message board will disprove his point thanks to posts by idiots who have conversations like "THIS GAME SUCKS"... "Why, may I ask?" ... "THE GRAPHICS LOOK LIKE SHIT"

No, there aren't any strawmen. If anything, removing the arbitrary term "gameplay" makes it easier to see which people are morans. The fact that morans think a game is bad because of graphics doesn't invalidate his argument.

A.I, mechanics, level design, NPC design and interaction, etc, play a larger role.

 

[Tolknaz]

At least this thread serves as an excellent idiot detector.

 

[Gragt]

So we do not play Torment, we … read it? click it through? endure it, and in enduring grow strong? move it, move it? follow its trail of digital breadcrumbs? experience deconstruction of game design? enjoy fancy menus, and not the kind you find in restaurants? adventure it all along while we mistakenly think that we rpg it? get punched in the face by the rule of three? troll the codex? polish the monocle? multihead the dick? prateek the sanjay? sample the inanity? serve fair Codexia? get out of the kitchen? Or maybe all this time we are actually played by Torment?

 

[mysterious-stranger]

How long did it take you to come up with all those puns?

 

[DraQ]

playing a game you are taking part as a player in a world described by a set of rules. your motivation in the games

Please, nigger. I'm not interested in your interpretation of game theory

How about my interpretation of equivocation?

Because game theory isn't particularly relevant to SP games, even those that don't incorporate save scumming provisions as integral part of the program.

 

[CappenVarra]

...

All right, I'm sorry to have polluted your thoughtful examination of game design concerns with such drivel as quotes from game design documents of dubious historical value.

I'm just curious, why didn't you name the thread "Starting and Near-Starting Areas in Computer Role Playing Games: A Case Study" and placed it in the Workshop? You were not trying to be cool, but instead of the above, you started the "Torment Sucks: A Call to Fellow-Minded Lulz-Lovers" thread. You were not trying to flame anybody, but went with the "guyz, the Emperor is nekkid, how come nobody ever noticed this before? i must be special" angle?

And then you topped it off by pulling A Mellissan. "Come on guys, why are you being such assholes? I merely stated my honest-to-god opinion, why is everybody attacking me? Look, somebody wrote a thoughtful reply that actually addresses some of my badly-stated concerns - I better ignore them and reply only to the bashers. Oh, some people are taking my side - thanks for the help, person of obviously healthy green skin and piercing animal cunning..."

Trolls are infamous for their regenerative abilities, able to recover from the most grievous of wounds or regenerate entire limbs given time. Severing a troll's head results merely in temporary incapacitation, rather than death. After cutting off a troll's head or other limbs, one must seal the wounds with fire or acid to prevent regeneration.

Trolls have no fear of death: They launch themselves into combat without hesitation, flailing wildly at the closest opponent. Even when confronted with fire, they try to get around the flames and attack. Fire and acid deal normal damage to a troll. If a troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

See, I'm not making any claims who's doing the trolling here. Maybe not everything I wrote was completely appropriate, but am I not the Alt of Wrath and Gluttony, master of drunken posting? No? Oh well, nevermind. Since normal damage (reading and reason) have failed to dispose of the horrible creatures, I merely flashed a bit fire and said: here's a way to know for sure. Or did I?

Anyways, good luck with those game design insights. Next time try the Workshop, and for the love of Cleve - if you can't handle the consequences, stay away from the lulz.

EDIT: damn quote tags.

 

[RatFink]

Please, nigger. I'm not interested in your interpretation of game theory

problem is, nigger, you arent interested in any other than "your interpretation"..

I have a feeling you're trying to say something. So what's that?

tough luck

Would you kindly elaborate on how "an account or recital of an event or a series of events" unfolds in football? I thought it's the events themselves that unfold?

holy shit! and that doesnt happen in stories..like..EVER!

Diablo=interaction with monsters. It's even stat based. And people bitch about lack of stat based dialogues in computer games

now youre talking out of your ass again..trollol

Not sure if serious
What about boxing, is it also a dialogue???
What about digging trenches, is that a dialogue between you and the Earth?

yeah serious..but boxing and trench digging in themselves..well..those arent games.

Man, that's fucking brilliant What about rock-paper-scissors?

yes it is..but you're not
+talking out of your ass again..trollol

Why so butthurt, kid?

This is just blatantly false. A story in a game is something that is written by a human writer, or dynamically written by a computer "writer" (in the case of emergent storylines). A story in a game is NOT the player's struggle to achieve the win condition. That's called... gameplay.

Yes, after you play a poker game, you could tell what happened as a story but that doesn't mean the GAME has a story. It just means your life, in review, has a sequence of events that can be arranged into a story. Under your definition, any activity that you could possibly engage in has a story.

i would not call my argument blatantly false.
i was trolled into describing the storytelling in poker/football not of a computer game with a set storyline in mind. there one needs to distinguish between failing his troll check and talking about real life games AND computer games developed with a unique story to be told.
BUT poker doesnt have a dynamic computer writer, so it is dynamically written by all the participants (human writers) into an emerging storyline. the computer writer would also be a participant in a computer game you play. I cant see how a dynamic storyline written by a computer is different to people "writing theirs"..basically you are thrust into unfolding events which come together as a story..exactly the moment you play the game.(poker, football)
my point being games need stories! people need stories to play games. and if you make the story yourself or if it is pre determined does not change that fact.
and of course the story is not the players struggle to achieve the win condition, but it is the motivation to struggle to achieve the win condition..which is what i said in my post.
the players struggle to achieve the win condition, if arranged into a story in review of what happened..this would then..as you say it transform to "any activity could have a story" and that is also universally valid for every game and every other activity. on that i agree.

 

[Gragt]

How long did it take you to come up with all those puns?

Those aren't puns, they are ramblings of an in(s)ane bastard.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

So we do not play Torment, we … read it? click it through? endure it, and in enduring grow strong? move it, move it? follow its trail of digital breadcrumbs? experience deconstruction of game design? enjoy fancy menus, and not the kind you find in restaurants? adventure it all along while we mistakenly think that we rpg it? get punched in the face by the rule of three? troll the codex? polish the monocle? multihead the dick? prateek the sanjay? sample the inanity? serve fair Codexia? get out of the kitchen? Or maybe all this time we are actually played by Torment?

 

[betamin]

So we do not play Torment, we … read it? click it through? endure it, and in enduring grow strong? move it, move it? follow its trail of digital breadcrumbs? experience deconstruction of game design? enjoy fancy menus, and not the kind you find in restaurants? adventure it all along while we mistakenly think that we rpg it? get punched in the face by the rule of three? troll the codex? polish the monocle? multihead the dick? prateek the sanjay? sample the inanity? serve fair Codexia? get out of the kitchen? Or maybe all this time we are actually played by Torment?

 

[acolyte]

ENOUGH WITH THE "GAMEPLAY" FAGGOTRY!!!

The post you linked to is an interesting read; but not for it's facts or logic. It seems that the author is just out to convince the reader of his opinion, no matter how underhanded his arguments are.

About how the word 'gameplay' is just a made-up word: I'd say a word only has the meaning people give it. Whether it sounds stupid or made-up to him is irrelevant (this is like attacking the ethos of his adversary - in this case the word 'gameplay'- as a persuasion technique). So he doesn't like how the word sounds? So what? The meaning it conveys is the only thing of importance. Name it differently, it doesn't matter at all.

At this point some readers will doubtless be thinking, "But, man, there are just things I want to say that can't possibly be expressed without using the word gameplay".

No one would think like that, unless he doesn't know what he's talking about, or can't be arsed to think and research a bit. The example of the exec producer is probably just an example of one of those ignorant people, who just want things to be done (by someone else, of course), without getting their hands dirty.

There is nothing one might want to say that can't be expressed without using the word gameplay

Probably. Personally, I agree, but I just can't be certain (*). So what? There is nothing one might want to program that can't be expressed without the C++ language... or Java, Python, any other higher level language. One can do everything in assembly. Why, in binary even. Higher level constructs/concepts are developed and adopted for good reasons.

It just comes down to how specific you want to be: you can use more specific words when talking about individual gameplay elements, but there are times that addressing all the individual elements as 'gameplay' can be useful too.

"This game has great gameplay but shitty graphics."

This means exactly the same as:

"This is a great game but it has shitty graphics."

So what he actually says is 'game' == 'gameplay'. Well, I don't know about you, but I stick with the vast majority that think 'gameplay' is an element of 'games', among others (notably graphics and music). One can argue that it is the most important element. But not the only element. IF it was the only element, then 'gameplay' == 'game'. As it stands, this is just false.

'Gameplay' is at the very least a general way to distinguish Graphics and Music from all the other aspects of a (video) game. This is a typical use of gameplay in reviews (separate Graphics, Music, Gameplay scores).



* I know there are academic fields that study such things, but I don't know what's going on there. They might have developed their own theories of what is and isn't gameplay.