Playable Character Races and Classes

[Excidium]

Hey, in TRVE KVLT D&D, mages only learn new spells through scrolls, a mentor or a stolen spellbook, all of which are dictated by the DM. I thought you guys thought the old school route is always superior?

 

[Grunker]

Hey, in TRVE KVLT D&D, mages only learn new spells through scrolls, a mentor or a stolen spellbook, all of which are dictated by the DM. I thought you guys thought the old school route is always superior?

You know my disdain for AD&D, so what's your point?

 

[Excidium]

I know yours but not theirs. Also in my opinion learning a new spell should be an important event for the wizard, not something you just pick from a list. Haters gonna hate.

 

[Grunker]

I know yours but not theirs. Also in my opinion learning a new spell should be an important event for the wizard, not something you just pick from a list. Haters gonna hate.

I don't see how picking a new spell at certain milestones isn't "important." I certainly feel like my first 3rd level spell is pretty damned important and I always look forward to it. I don't see how picking up the only thing the developers intended for me in the chest they placed makes it any more important, that's for damned sure.

 

[Excidium]

It's more fun when magic progression is integrated into the game through quests and treasure. Learning new spells could be an adventure into itself. Getting your first 3rd level spell in 3e is certainly exciting, but learning protection from normal missiles from the spellbook you found in the body of the enemy magic user is so much more exciting. Or spending all your hard-earned treasure in a scroll of fireball. Or convincing the party to do an errand for a powerful mage so he teaches you the Haste spell...

 

[Grunker]

It's more fun when magic progression is integrated into the game through quests and treasure. Learning new spells could be an adventure into itself. Getting your first 3rd level spell in 3e is certainly exciting, but learning protection from normal missiles from the spellbook you found in the body of the enemy magic user is so much more exciting. Or spending all your hard-earned treasure in a scroll of fireball. Or convincing the party to do an errand for a powerful mage so he teaches you the Haste spell...

Which is why 3.5 Wizard handles it perfectly. Player control + learning from scroll = best of both worlds. I have no problem with Chaos Chronicles handling it even more tightly by limiting you to a single self-chosen spell each level and finding the rest.

What I take issue with is developers forcing spell-selection.

 

[Excidium]

I do agree with you that spell selection shouldn't be restrictive, after all flexibility is what makes the Wizard shine.

But from what I understand the devs don't want to restrict spell selection, just the spells you learn by yourself. The game will still have magic shops with a selection of scrolls for you to buy (or steal?) and the same scrolls can be found in the game world so it's something that helps the game economy and also offers some degree of C&C.

 

[tuluse]

It's more fun when magic progression is integrated into the game through quests and treasure. Learning new spells could be an adventure into itself. Getting your first 3rd level spell in 3e is certainly exciting, but learning protection from normal missiles from the spellbook you found in the body of the enemy magic user is so much more exciting. Or spending all your hard-earned treasure in a scroll of fireball. Or convincing the party to do an errand for a powerful mage so he teaches you the Haste spell...

I would be fine with this actually.

However, it seems that CC has the worst idea. You have an unchanging base list of spells that you learn which takes the interesting part out of learning new spells while also not allowing for any customization (of the base list).

 

[HobGoblin42]

Sorry, but that's just plain bullshit.

Hoverdog: Provides sensible arguments.

We chose a different approach how to get new spells. Instead of making all spells available on levelup, the wizard has to find or purchase scrolls to learn from. There will be various opportunities to get those scrolls: buying them in some magic academy or shop, completing quest for some archmage, looting scrolls from hostile wizard's corpses after the combat, finding old scrolls in some forgotten ancient library etc. etc.
In Chaos Chronicles, the player has to accomplish or spend something to get the most powerful spells - they don't come for free because they magically pop-up in some levelup screen.

Hoverdog called that idea plain bullshit and honestly at this point it would be just a waste of time to continue the discussion about this topic. I knew that we would get into those situation as soon as we decide to discuss those game elements here, but, beside obvious disagreements, at the end of the day, we get enough constructive feedback to draw a positive balance.

 

[HobGoblin42]

I have no problem with Chaos Chronicles handling it even more tightly by limiting you to a single self-chosen spell each level and finding the rest.
What I take issue with is developers forcing spell-selection.

We limit the number of self-chosen spells to pick from. Some spells are indeed not available on levelup for free, but from scrolls.

 

[evdk]

I have no problem with Chaos Chronicles handling it even more tightly by limiting you to a single self-chosen spell each level and finding the rest.
What I take issue with is developers forcing spell-selection.

We limit the number of self-chosen spells to pick from. Some spells are indeed not available on levelup for free, but from scrolls.

I am sorry, but from your collegues answers I have gotten the impression that you simply assign spells at level up.

 

[AbounI]

Thanks Hobgob for this explanation, I was mistaken about how it is designed. So perhaps the best design choice would be not to grant a new spell when wizard level up (wich is different from the capacity to cast a higher level spell).Let him force to discover it, by any form/action.In this case, it fits me.What I don't like is to gain an imposed new spell when wizard level-up, but that's obviously a different design (that you apparently don't want too)

 

[hoverdog]

I have no problem with Chaos Chronicles handling it even more tightly by limiting you to a single self-chosen spell each level and finding the rest.
What I take issue with is developers forcing spell-selection.

We limit the number of self-chosen spells to pick from. Some spells are indeed not available on levelup for free, but from scrolls.

I am sorry, but from your collegues answers I have gotten the impression that you simply assign spells at level up.

Indeed, that was the problem.

And Hobgoblin, I really thought you were above quoting one sentence and disregarding valid points, unlike your unfortunate friend

Thanks Hobgob for this explanation, I was mistaken about how it is designed. So perhaps the best design choice would be not to grant a new spell when wizard level up.Let him force to discover it, by any form/action.In this case, it fits me.What I don't like is to grant an imposed new spell when wizard level-up, but that's obviously a different design

Agreed, no spell selection is actually better than a shoehorned one.

 

[HobGoblin42]

I am sorry, but from your collegues answers I have gotten the impression that you simply assign spells at level up.

We choose which new spells you can learn on level-up and where you find/purchase scrolls to learn others.

Even when discussing some micro RPG game elements, some people tend to behave like drama queens. It's a fucking minor change to other RPGs but everybody went crazy because the spell selection is reduced. Other (good) cRPGs didn't grant ANY free spells on levelup at all.

 

[HobGoblin42]

And Hobgoblin, I really thought you were above quoting one sentence and disregarding valid points, unlike your unfortunate friend

If you call other people's contribution here 'plain bullshit', you should not expect a healthy discussion afterwards. And I can't respond to your arguments in detail because this particular game element is a) not in my scope right now and b) I don't think we will find any agreement here.

 

[Fenris 2.0]

It's probably how you sell it. If I level up and get the Flame Arrow Spell I might think WTF ? Decline ! - If I level up, get nothing, went back to the Village where the friendly long bearded Mentor Mage says something like "Boy, I think you are now powerful enough to learn the Fireball Spell. First you take some Bat guano and then you..." and the next Quest is to save the village from the kobold-horde of doom then I probably would feel good when I blast away the little critters by the dozens...

 

[Grunker]

Sorry, but that's just plain bullshit.

Hoverdog: Provides sensible arguments.

Et tu, Hob? Hover said A LOT more than that, but on the basis of that alone, you judge his entire argument? That's quality of discussion I'd normally expect from the Watch.

I'm glad you simply limit the number of spells available to us, rather than simply assign one to the player, and I'm fine with that depending how wide that selection is. Done right I suppose that will force the player to be creative with his spells rather than simply casting Fireball on everything.

 

[Gakkone]

Wow, talk about communication problems. So you do get to choose which spells you want at level up but just from a limited set of spells? If so I'm totally cool with that.

 

[hoverdog]

And Hobgoblin, I really thought you were above quoting one sentence and disregarding valid points, unlike your unfortunate friend

If you call other people's contribution here 'plain bullshit', you should not expect a healthy discussion afterwards. And I can't respond to your arguments in detail because this particular game element is a) not in my scope right now and b) I don't think we will find any agreement here.

This is still the Codex. Did you think getting your own forums here will suddenly make us all nice and polite?

 

[Excidium]

There's a difference between being blunt and being an overreacting moron.

 

[evdk]

There's a difference between being blunt and being an overreacting moron.

I might have been on the Codex too long, but I imagine a bit different things under "overreacting moron" than anything that went down in this thread.

 

[Grunker]

There's a difference between being blunt and being an overreacting moron.

Calling something 'bullshit' is hardly being an 'overreacting moron', unless you have very large sensibilities

 

[hoverdog]

Was I watchwitzed all of a sudden?

 

[Ferdator]

Which is why 3.5 Wizard handles it perfectly. Player control + learning from scroll = best of both worlds. I have no problem with Chaos Chronicles handling it even more tightly by limiting you to a single self-chosen spell each level and finding the rest.

What I take issue with is developers forcing spell-selection.

In D&D every single class gets class specific feats, spelllike abilities and supernatural powers at defined levels. This has never been a problem and nobody will complain, if we handle it the same. But if we adopt the exact same system for spells, it does change everything?
I see how this would make a difference, if we had that for the characters feats. There your reachable amount is limited and choice does matter. But casters can learn all the spells they want sooner or later. Difference is just if you access them all in the order you want, or if you access them partially in the order you want, but gain some others at defined points. In the end your wizard can have the exact same spells.

 

[mangamuscle]

Even when discussing some micro RPG game elements, some people tend to behave like drama queens.

Some drama is inevitable in any forum, but please do not forget that said "drama queens" are your potential consumers and word of mouth free publicity. Knowing when to heed and when to ignore said comments is the landmark of a truly great game publisher. Terrible publishers will do the exact opposite (I do not think I need to remind people of the Sim City fiasco by EA, just to name a recent story).