Please help me understand something about Neverwinter Nights

[Awor Szurkrarz]

ToEE had a similar non-interactivity problem.

 

[Gragt]

I don't have the will to rant about this game just yet, but holy shit, I think this is possibly one of the worst, most boring and repetitive games I've ever played.

Yeah, NWN OC is bad. Not just mediocre but bad. It's best to tell you now that each chapter will send you to four different locations to find four macguffins before you can proceed to the end zone and the next chapter. As dull as the NWN2 OC can be at times, it also has some good moments and even some outstanding ones like the trial (even despite the fact that the outcome is always the same). I found the two extensions better but not as good as people claim, with a lot of silliness but at least they have good moments. I have yet to try the premium modules now that they are available for free but I wonder if there is anything worthwile there.

 

[Regdar]

Awesome post, sea. I really enjoyed reading your attempts at forcing logic on a monomyth set in a high fantasy world. Maybe you can review the Iliad or Odyssey, next. Thanks.

 

[DalekFlay]

are we really discussing the plausibility of forgotten realms?

Elves could be the product of vaccines bro. Jenny McCarthy told me about it.

 

[Roguey]

This is D&D, so what happened to Cure Disease spells and potions? Pretty sure those still exist in D&D canon, yet of course I haven't actually found a single one exploring the game world, so is there a shortage or something? They never ever touch on this at all.

"Bioware game have bad writing" goes without saying, but writing a bunch of words about something to which you're not even paying much attention so you can get mad at made-up issues? Tsk tsk.

I never even got this far but spoiler alert the plague isn't exactly a plague.

 

[Shadenuat]

I reached as far as the end of the game and finished both expansions, and I agree that if you want to nitpick the plot, you should at least know the whole of it, otherwise you can end up in a position of a dude who drops Arcanum because "chosen one is cliche", and will never ever see any redeeming qualities of it. So yeah, one point goes to the Roguey's.
But the fact is, NWN main campaign does't have any of these qualities, it's really boring at any act. The better things there are some of the companions, probably, but I don't think it's worth it to finish the campaign just because you want to listen to Linu's awkward moments.
In truth, I did't like any of the expansions either. The "adventurer's academy" plot was just as boring, defeating Mephistopheles was retarded (and +15 swords too).

I disagree about graphics though. When NWN just came out, lightning, spell effects and metal reflections actually were pretty amazing at the time. UI is p. great too, it's radial structure works better than the same in ToEE's, and multiple bars are very handy. Inventory is much better than in NWN2.

 

[sea]

"Bioware game have bad writing" goes without saying, but writing a bunch of words about something to which you're not even paying much attention so you can get mad at made-up issues? Tsk tsk.

I never even got this far but spoiler alert the plague isn't exactly a plague.

Okay, fair enough, I totally missed that because I rushed through the early dialogue since I've tried playing the game a dozen times in the past.

Even so, I do find a full-blown plague rather unbelievable, as well as its effects on the city. It just doesn't seem nearly as viable in a world where modern magic is so capable as to basically render death meaningless. These days we have most communicable diseases dealt with and the limitations aren't scientific, but in distribution. The D&D world, "technologically" speaking, is far more advanced than ours. It also certainly doesn't excuse the lack of ambition in exploring interesting ideas either. "Oh, magic plague, conventional medicine doesn't work" isn't really an explanation so much as it is just a hand-wave and a way of saying "it's a plot device, dummy!" In other words it's just kinda lazy.

To be honest, the game's writing isn't actually that awful, and barring my initial complaint there aren't a whole lot of glaring plot holes or anything, if only because it aims quite low so there isn't much to screw up. It's just horrendously boring and meandering. The game is 90% filler and the plot moves at a snail's pace. I can only tolerate a "delve into a 3-level cave and kill hundreds of orcs/bugbears/goblins/gnolls" quest once or twice per game, and that's basically all you get in Neverwinter Nights. That part in Charwood with the town held in stasis by Lathander was pretty cool and was the only really "interesting" part of the game, but if that's the high point of it then I'll be pretty damn disappointed.

It's like the worst parts of the original Baldur's Gate but with none of the unique scenarios, loot, characters, etc. to make it interesting. I'm at the tail end of chapter 2 (just reached Luskan) and things feel like they are finally starting to pick up, but that might just be the Boots of Speed I console-hacked myself to get through all the ridiculously repetitive and dreary combat.

 

[vorvek]

Even so, I do find a full-blown plague rather unbelievable, as well as its effects on the city. It just doesn't seem nearly as viable in a world where modern magic is so capable as to basically render death meaningless. These days we have most communicable diseases dealt with and the limitations aren't scientific, but in distribution. The D&D world, "technologically" speaking, is far more advanced than ours. It also certainly doesn't excuse the lack of ambition in exploring interesting ideas either. "Oh, magic plague, conventional medicine doesn't work" isn't really an explanation so much as it is just a hand-wave and a way of saying "it's a plot device, dummy!" In other words it's just kinda lazy.

Remove disease cures all diseases that the subject is suffering from. The spell also kills parasites, including green slime and others. Certain special diseases may not be countered by this spell or may be countered only by a caster of a certain level or higher.

Note: Since the spell’s duration is instantaneous, it does not prevent reinfection after a new exposure to the same disease at a later date.

That's a level 3 spell that most clerics can't even cast, and those who can probably won't be able to prepare more than 3 or 4 to be cast in the same day. So yeah, cure a couple of them, they get it again as soon as they leave the temple. GG.

Yes, you could have one of the numerous Deus Ex Machina characters from Forgotten Realms just wishing for the problem to be fixed, or even creating a spell that just makes everything fine again (which is pretty much what Elminster Stu does). But that's not a problem with D&D, just with Forgotten Realms. You have other settings where there are simply no level 9 clerics around able to resurrect anyone, and only the player characters grow beyond the most humble levels (apart from the challenges their face, that is). In Greyhawk, for example, you can't really find many enemies beyond level ~13 unless you begin traveling to another plane and stuff like that. And in settings like Dark Sun magic gets way rarer, and its use in public is directly discouraged unless you want your adventurer to die at a very young age.

 

[Azrael the cat]

They didn't used the eagles to throw the ring into Mordor because one simple reason: their mission required secrecy and sneaking abilities. Even in the movies Sauron gets confused about who really has the ring due to random people using the palantir (which was something like his radar). Have you guys played a little game called Thief?

Not to mention that if Sauron sees them flying above Mordor, the Nazguls would tear them apart in a minute.

not a chance.. although nazguls seems to be far more massive and powerful for some reason they always losed the battle and another thing is that we dont know how many eagles are in total.. maybe there are like 300 of them

Thats not how things go at all.
Lets just say that that "how it should have ended -end" is only possible if everyone knew how things are going to go, before any of those things happened.

Its simple case of being a smart general after the battle.

Nazgul did not always loose a battle either.

In short:
Tolkien does not scale to your level.

I was pretty sure only 2 Nazguls get killed in the books, neither of them by eagles. I also got the impression that giant eagles would need to be pretty rare, because (putting aside that fridge logic isn't particularly vital to this kind of work) otherwise you'd have some fucking angry farmers.

Much more importantly (in that this IS relevant to the book's internal logic) it's heavily implied that:
- giving it to a powerful creature is the worst thing you could do, due to corrupting effects (note that Gandalf won't even touch the thing, and mere proximity is enough to corrupt heroic characters (giant eagle/nazgul hybrid ftw).
- I might be remembering it incorrectly, but doesn't Gandalf theorise (after realising that Bilbo has had the ring for decades) that hobbits are somewhat resistant to the ring's effects?

 

[tuluse]

- I might be remembering it incorrectly, but doesn't Gandalf theorise (after realising that Bilbo has had the ring for decades) that hobbits are somewhat resistant to the ring's effects?

I think this assumed to be fact, not just theorized.

Also, there is commentary in the books about how the eagles don't really like humans and fear their arrows.

 

[tuluse]

The D&D world, "technologically" speaking, is far more advanced than ours.

I don't like this line of though because while magic users in DnD can achieve miracles, they don't really understand how it works. If you took away all the clerics and unleashed a plague, no one would have any idea what to do. In modern society on Earth, if you removed all the doctors and unleashed a plague, we would still know how do things like quarantine the sick, use soap, it would probably only take slightly longer to figure out if it was transmitted through the air, contact, or bodily fluids, etc. Without basic understanding like this a society is not technology advanced. Giving a caveman a rifle doesn't make him technologically advanced.

 

[Commissar Draco]

You must be kidding it is our cities who are full of cavemen if they torched London for a week cause mere gangster was shot by Police imagine the ITZ pandemic disease would create. Civilization is fragile thing and most most people are morons who can't into reading instructions. Sea has it wrong too magic is rare in D&D setting so there is no chance masses would have access to them... Unless Some Good Deity Church was involved and I would still suspect voters bribing conversion effort as Deities grow stronger the more faithful they have.

 

[hiver]

I was pretty sure only 2 Nazguls get killed in the books, neither of them by eagles. I also got the impression that giant eagles would need to be pretty rare, because (putting aside that fridge logic isn't particularly vital to this kind of work) otherwise you'd have some fucking angry farmers.
Much more importantly (in that this IS relevant to the book's internal logic) it's heavily implied that:

- giving it to a powerful creature is the worst thing you could do, due to corrupting effects (note that Gandalf won't even touch the thing, and mere proximity is enough to corrupt heroic characters (giant eagle/nazgul hybrid ftw).
- I might be remembering it incorrectly, but doesn't Gandalf theorise (after realising that Bilbo has had the ring for decades) that hobbits are somewhat resistant to the ring's effects?

The only time where Ring Wraiths lost in the book was when Elrond released the river onto them. Although that only meant they lost their "bodies" or shells, or forms, for a time.
They are the bearers of Nine lesser Rings Sauron (made himself?) and cannot be truly killed by usual means.
"Nazg" means Ring in the black language - "Gul" means - wraith.

The only one that got "killed" was the Witch King, in a special circumstances, by an enchanted mcguffin blade and a prophecy fulfillment.
(not one of the highest points of the story, granted)

1. Those Eagles are not creatures of Middle Earth. They were sent there from Valinor - the blessed lands. They do not listen to Gandalf. He doesnt command them. THEY decided to do him a few heavy favors a few times.
2. The idea is not giving the Ring to Eagles, but to have someone like Frodo flying on them to Mordor.
3. It cannot be done since all Nine Nazguls would be there plus Sauron himself - and they already knew that the other side found the One Ring.

All other abbreviations to that plan require precognitive knowledge about how things and events would play out before any of them happened and therefore the idea is stupid.



Hobbits do not have resistance to the Ring. It is just that their very nature isnt so quickly corruptible since they basically dont have any desire for power. Generally. The Ring corrupts those with greater power, or those yearning power more quickly.
Gandalf theorized that it seemed that taking the ring through act of mercy postponed the negative effects in the case of Bilbo - but that happened when Sauron was not yet fully reformed, so... the Ring was a bit more subtle, and subdued overall.
It simply kept Bilbo alive. Waiting.
Bilbo and Frodo - and Sam were somewhat unique personalities and never took the ring with any bad intentions.
And they had a lot of help.

There is no telling that things would have developed the same if some other Hobbit found it.
Smeagol/Gollum was a hobbit. Once.
And there were many Hobbits that followed (got influenced by) Saruman when he got to the Shire.

So it isnt any kind of fact that "hobbits are resistant" to the Ring. Albeit being maybe just too simple and naive.

It is theory and guesswork.


Happy now?

 

[DraQ]

Fuck this game.

I saved the Spirit of the Wood by giving it some cure for its poison, I return to the Archdruid, and all I can tell him is that it's dead. I think this is because I returned to the area it was in after the Spirit teleported me out, so I could collect its loot. I used the portal to exit, which made the game think that I killed it. Yeah, minor bug, but pretty lame. I'm sure the Spirit of the Wood being "dead" impacts absolutely nothing of course.

When you think about it, this bug is colossally retarded. When speaking to the Archdruid, all the game should do is check to see if the Spirit was killed (I'm sure there is a variable for that that updates) or cured, and gives the appropriate dialogue option. I don't even see why you would do it any other way. If it does do that, and the game sets the "Spirit = dead" variable when you use the exit portal, then... fuck it, what? So if you exit before talking to the Spirit, does the game just say it's dead without you ever having met it? No, you'd need to check to see if the player talked to it first to avoid that problem, which means that we are talking at least *slightly* complex logic to figure this out. Which means that someone would have had to put effort into doing that.

The real question is why the hell would you ever tell a plot variable to update when the plot conditions haven't even been met properly. So not only are we talking about moronic design, but moronic design put into play by someone who should have been smart enough to not do it in the first place. Brilliant.

I just fucking hate it when developers unwarrantedly assume shit like this. It's the #1 reason why RPGs are so bug prone.
You're not writing a script for a movie, you dumb shits, you can't assume anything!

I don't have the will to rant about this game just yet, but holy shit, I think this is possibly one of the worst, most boring and repetitive games I've ever played.

And it is the main reason why Morrowind came out so unfinished...

NWN's visuals were indeed pretty disappointing. The comic-like item pictures. The sometimes simply surreal level design/tilesets, low poly 3D models, etc...
Coming from IE games, NWN 1 was an eyesore, with the exceptions of some spell effects, at least.

Rpgsaurus Rex:
Infinity Engine wasn't that different in matters of containers, I think, at least the Bioware IE games (not sure about IWD).
Backgrounds were pre-rendered and container functionality just added on top of it, afaik. Unless the level designer decided to add an container overlay to some visual feature, you wouldn't be able to interact with it.
On the other hand, the level designers probably were less lazy and made most chests, cupboards, etc. interactive.

Precisely. IE may have had its flaws, but every chest-looking container was... well, a chest (it may have contained trash, or valuables - didn't matter), not simply a decoration.

No, it wasn't.

There were plenty of chests, barrels and stuff that were non-interactive despite looking no different from their interactive brethren. IE games were as inconsistent as it gets in this regard.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

There were plenty of chests, barrels and stuff that were non-interactive despite looking no different from their interactive brethren. IE games were as inconsistent as it gets in this regard.

There isn't a single chest in BG2 that doesn't function as an actual chest (well... maybe 1-2 non-functional for 100 functional ones? like the mimic in Umar Hills), regarding other furniture - see my previous post.

 

[Mrowak]

There were plenty of chests, barrels and stuff that were non-interactive despite looking no different from their interactive brethren. IE games were as inconsistent as it gets in this regard.

There isn't a single chest in BG2 that doesn't function as an actual chest (well... maybe 1-2 non-functional for 100 functional ones? like the mimic in Umar Hills), regarding other furniture - see my previous post.

There actually are plenty of them. They just do not react to alt prompt so that's why you might not have noticed them.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

There were plenty of chests, barrels and stuff that were non-interactive despite looking no different from their interactive brethren. IE games were as inconsistent as it gets in this regard.

There isn't a single chest in BG2 that doesn't function as an actual chest (well... maybe 1-2 non-functional for 100 functional ones? like the mimic in Umar Hills), regarding other furniture - see my previous post.

There are actually are - there are plenty of them. They just do not react to alt prompt so that's why you might not have noticed them.

Bleh. Maybe you're right, I have no idea why I remembered it this way. I guess the reason why I hated NWN was of greater implied interactivity and blue balls that came with 3D as opposed to the picturesque abstraction of "click TAB to see what's what" of IE.

 

[sea]

And it is the main reason why Morrowind came out so unfinished...

Explain!

 

[Commissar Draco]

Is Tab (light all searchables and loot) disabled in NWN2?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Even so, I do find a full-blown plague rather unbelievable, as well as its effects on the city. It just doesn't seem nearly as viable in a world where modern magic is so capable as to basically render death meaningless. These days we have most communicable diseases dealt with and the limitations aren't scientific, but in distribution. The D&D world, "technologically" speaking, is far more advanced than ours. It also certainly doesn't excuse the lack of ambition in exploring interesting ideas either. "Oh, magic plague, conventional medicine doesn't work" isn't really an explanation so much as it is just a hand-wave and a way of saying "it's a plot device, dummy!" In other words it's just kinda lazy.

No. It doesn't work like this. Why do you keep ignoring the points that people make?
Magic isn't technology. Magic isn't omnipresent. Magic isn't omnipotent.
Also, there's a question of wealth. Daily labourer's wage is 1 silver piece. Casting a cure disease spell as a service costs 150 gold pieces, that is 1500 daily wages of a labourer.
Curing death costs 5000 gold pieces in material components only, which is 50000 daily wages of a labourer.

 

[Mrowak]

Even so, I do find a full-blown plague rather unbelievable, as well as its effects on the city. It just doesn't seem nearly as viable in a world where modern magic is so capable as to basically render death meaningless. These days we have most communicable diseases dealt with and the limitations aren't scientific, but in distribution. The D&D world, "technologically" speaking, is far more advanced than ours. It also certainly doesn't excuse the lack of ambition in exploring interesting ideas either. "Oh, magic plague, conventional medicine doesn't work" isn't really an explanation so much as it is just a hand-wave and a way of saying "it's a plot device, dummy!" In other words it's just kinda lazy.

No. It doesn't work like this. Why do you keep ignoring the points that people make?
Magic isn't omnipotent.
Also, there's a question of wealth. Daily worker's wage is 1 silver piece. Casting a cure disease spell as a service costs 150 gold pieces, that is 1500 daily wages of a worker.

Please, do not try to find plausibility in D&D, and specifically NWN 1.

Magic isn't technology.

But in D&D it performs the same function rendering technical devices useless. Communication at longe range distances? Transport? Military solutions (Fireball==Bazooka)? Medicine

Magic isn't omnipresent.

It kinda is, and NWN ceratinly shows that with the hoards of magic loot, spells and enemies. Everyone has access to magic.

Magic isn't omnipotent.

Well, when it defeats death it kinda is. BUT then again we have "magic is technology" argument, and neither technology on its own is omnipotent (untill one finds a solution using it - which is what happens in the game)...

Also, there's a question of wealth. Daily worker's wage is 1 silver piece. Casting a cure disease spell as a service costs 150 gold pieces, that is 1500 daily wages of a worker.

The sheer fact that you can buy yourself effective magical treatment proves that it is quite common service, which begs the question - why the prices are skyhigh? But's it's just D&D being derpy and undermining its plausibility.

In other words the "plague" in NWN *is* just a lazy plot device.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Please, do not try to find plausibility in D&D, and specifically NWN 1.

No. It's just a NWN1-specific things. D&D was thought through to be plausible, it's not its fault that players and DM want to engage in munchkinfesting and break the setting.

But in D&D it performs the same function rendering technical devices useless. Communication at longe range distances? Transport? Military solutions (Fireball==Bazooka)? Medicine

It performs the same functions at much higher cost with much lesser accessibility. Also, there are still healers and alchemists using traditional means for healing - if magic would be the only means of healing people, most of ill/wounded people would die from lack of aid.
There are also firearms in Forgotten Realms and wizards are scared shitless of them. Khelben Blackstaff himself engages in blowing up of any gunpowder stores that he finds out about.

It kinda is, and NWN ceratinly shows that with the hoards of magic loot, spells and enemies. Everyone has access to magic, and even by the virtue that you can

That's munchkinfesting, raping the setting.

Also, what "everyone"? Does the game show all the 23000 people that live in Neverwinter?

Well, when it defeats death it kinda is. BUT then again we have "magic is technology" argument, and neither technology on its own is omnipotent (untill one finds a solution using it - which is what happens in the game)...

No, it defeats death at specific conditions and at specific cost.

The sheer fact that you can buy yourself effective magical treatment proves that it is quite common service, which begs the question - why the prices are skyhigh? But's it's just D&D being derpy and undermining its plausibility.

No, it doesn't mean that. The price is sky-high because it's a service of a very rare talented individual.

 

[DraQ]

Explain!

Bethesda rushed to release before competition, for obvious reasons - what's there to explain?

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Please, do not try to find plausibility in D&D, and specifically NWN 1.

Please, don't conflate Faerun (the setting), D&D (the system) and NWN 1 (the video game).

 

[Mrowak]

Please, do not try to find plausibility in D&D, and specifically NWN 1.

No. It's just a NWN1-specific things. D&D was thought through to be plausible, it's not its fault that players and DM want to engage in munchkinfesting and break the setting.

But in D&D it performs the same function rendering technical devices useless. Communication at longe range distances? Transport? Military solutions (Fireball==Bazooka)? Medicine

It performs the same functions at much higher cost with much lesser accessibility. Also, there are still healers and alchemists using traditional means for healing - if magic would be the only means of healing people, most of ill/wounded people would die from lack of aid.
There are also firearms in Forgotten Realms and wizards are scared shitless of them. Khelben Blackstaff himself engages in blowing up of any gunpowder stores that he finds out about.

It kinda is, and NWN ceratinly shows that with the hoards of magic loot, spells and enemies. Everyone has access to magic, and even by the virtue that you can

That's munchkinfesting, raping the setting.

Also, what "everyone"? Does the game show all the 23000 people that live in Neverwinter?

Well, when it defeats death it kinda is. BUT then again we have "magic is technology" argument, and neither technology on its own is omnipotent (untill one finds a solution using it - which is what happens in the game)...

No, it defeats death at specific conditions and at specific cost.

The sheer fact that you can buy yourself effective magical treatment proves that it is quite common service, which begs the question - why the prices are skyhigh? But's it's just D&D being derpy and undermining its plausibility.

No, it doesn't mean that. The price is sky-high because it's a service of a very rare talented individual.

Bro, you can squabble all you want but the fact is D&D wants to be sorta Renaissance, but with MAGIC... and it kinda fails at it, because it doesn't account for the magnitude of the impact it would have as defined by the ruleset. Everything from daily chores to economy is pretty much fucked up. And moreso in NWN1.