Please tell me why I'm going to hate Oblivion

[Perishiko]

The part of the compass that shows cool locations is controlled by a variable and can be turned off. The part that points to quest objectives can't. And even if you could turn it off, your game would be preety much screwed, most likely.

Oh because of the RAI? Where people move about realistically? Why couldn't you just go to their house, click the kill time to 10PM button, then go in and get them out of bed? In the realistic real world, people have employed the brain-bending "go to their house and wait for them to show up" tracking technique since the beginning of time. I'm pretty sure we invented this before fire even.

I can't imagine any reason why the compass would be necessary for quests that can't be attributed to bad design. It could at least be some lame ass magic compass in tune with the seven shards of the mystical staff that when united will allow the chosen one to defeat the foozle.

Heh, i was going to make this point about the compass a while ago, but i didn't feel like getting into the arguements on it.

It's placed in for the idiots, and for all us others that don't want to use it... we can't shut it off.

For a while, i'll be playing it on an xbox 360, till i get money to upgrade my comp to use some major mods. I unfortunately won't be able to shut it off. (Their great suggestion was to use a quest that i dont want to finish so it points out the wrong location...)

It seems like lazyness that they didn't give an option to shut it off (This is much easier to impliment then mounted combat.) -- That's an understatement.

 

[golgotha]

My biggest gripe is that they've spent large amounts of money on things such as studying soil erosion and voice acting.

Do you have any idea what soil erosion is, or do you just bitch for the sake of it?
Soil erosion is a system which quickly generates procedural landscapes, which saved time and money, not wasted them.
Get a fucking clue.
I do agree about voice acting, although without it, NPC to NPC converations would have been impossible.

How much do they pay you, exactly? You don't think the time it took them to learn of soil erosion, then in turn code an entire program to do it for them took just the same amount of time as it would be to handplace things?

NPC's can easily have had text dialog.

There's a gamesetting that indicates the distance at which the compass icons becomes visible. Set it to 0 in a mod, and no compass icons.

I find that bullshit. If it were that easy, why wouldn't they have the option packaged with the game? It'd take them no more than five minutes, thats half the time they take to run around bragging of how much they love Patrick Stewart (like in the Making Of.. video).

 

[Lumpy]

My biggest gripe is that they've spent large amounts of money on things such as studying soil erosion and voice acting.

Do you have any idea what soil erosion is, or do you just bitch for the sake of it?
Soil erosion is a system which quickly generates procedural landscapes, which saved time and money, not wasted them.
Get a fucking clue.
I do agree about voice acting, although without it, NPC to NPC converations would have been impossible.

How much do they pay you, exactly? You don't think the time it took them to learn of soil erosion, then in turn code an entire program to do it for them took just the same amount of time as it would be to handplace things?

God...
No, it took them much less to program soil erosion than it would have taken them to create the whole environments by hand. D'uh...
Why should they pay me anything? I'm tired about all this mindless criticism of Oblivion as much as I am tired of all the mindless worshipping done at elderscrolls.com. Bashing Bethesda is becoming a trend.

 

[kingcomrade]

OMG LUMPY IS TEH PLANT!11!1!~`~ DEY PAY HIM!!! SHILL!! CHARLATAN!! TRAITOR!!! OMGZ!!!

 

[dongle]

There's a gamesetting that indicates the distance at which the compass icons becomes visible. Set it to 0 in a mod, and no compass icons.

I find that bullshit. If it were that easy, why wouldn't they have the option packaged with the game?

Well, he -is- a programmer working on the game. And this is a community forum post (here) not PR hype. I can’t believe he’d tell a blatant lie like that, especially not here, where we’d jump all over it if it turns out false.

 

[OverrideB1]

I go back to an argument I've made before.

Yes, soil erosion was used to create an algorithm to procedurally generate terrain - thus greatly speeding up the creation of the landscape. Yes, it probably didn't cost them that much more than it would have cost to pay a designer to develop and impliment spears or levitation or any one of the dozen or so things that have been cut from the game.

BUT...

Can anyone tell me what difference realistic soil-erosion compared to near-realistic (or even non-realistic) soil-erosion would have made? Could any of you have told the difference (if the PR plebs hadn't made such a big fucking deal out of it) between 50% realistic soil-erosion and 99% realistic soil-erosion? I'm pretty certain that I would have been none the wiser.

 

[Tintin]

golgotha, you are trying way too hard to be an ultra-bitchy-whining-witty-Codex superhero.

How much do they pay you, exactly? You don't think the time it took them to learn of soil erosion, then in turn code an entire program to do it for them took just the same amount of time as it would be to handplace things?

So let me get this straight - you believe the time it took for them to send a guy (yes one guy) down to a university to study up topics (which is ambigous and could mean for a day talking to proffessors) and then creating the algorithim is the same amount of time it would take for them to create, and place, by hand, 16 square miles of detailed, realistic landscaping.

 

[Drain]

I think there's an element of truth in that - not that Beth are getting lazy but that they've seen that most of their screwups can be fixed with the CS and a number of dedicated modders. Having seen that, they are getting lackadaisical - knowing (or thinking that they know) that the modders will fix up 99% of their mistakes/omissions. Whether that will be the case remains to be seen. It will be entertaining to see if they fix anything major (like the memory-leak from MW) this time around or whether they'll just pretend it doesn't exist.

If their target audience is Xbox 360 players , then reliance on modders to fix the game would be stupid.

 

[Thrawn05]

I think there's an element of truth in that - not that Beth are getting lazy but that they've seen that most of their screwups can be fixed with the CS and a number of dedicated modders. Having seen that, they are getting lackadaisical - knowing (or thinking that they know) that the modders will fix up 99% of their mistakes/omissions. Whether that will be the case remains to be seen. It will be entertaining to see if they fix anything major (like the memory-leak from MW) this time around or whether they'll just pretend it doesn't exist.

If their target audience is Xbox 360 players , then reliance on modders to fix the game would be stupid.

Sounds like MW. There are a lot of "bug fixing" mods out there.

 

[Solik]

Can anyone tell me what difference realistic soil-erosion compared to near-realistic (or even non-realistic) soil-erosion would have made? Could any of you have told the difference (if the PR plebs hadn't made such a big fucking deal out of it) between 50% realistic soil-erosion and 99% realistic soil-erosion?

It's not that much harder to do one than the other. To do either requires some base amount of knowledge of the process and some functions that do a decent job of modelling. 50% is what you'd get if the devs spent a week (or longer, really) researching it themselves instead of enrolling in a class for a week.

Also, the hell-raising about the compass may be one reason why few game companies bother developing games to fit your specific tastes. It's simply far too risky because the target audience is far too picky.

 

[The Internets]

All this talk about compasses is fine, but I find this quote a far better commentary on why this game won't live up to the hype.

Horses are used to get around faster. I’ll be honest, we were so excited to do horses in the game, but have actually found that they are useful, but not to the level we expected. Yes, you can ride around faster, and get away from mobs in the wilderness, and such. So they don’t provide this overwhelming advantage to you, but they’re just cool. It’s something you just want to do in the game. On a pure game design level, they aren’t some killer feature, but they are fun. You see them for sale, and you just have to have one. Or you sneak into the horse pen at night and steal one. That’s fun regardless of the need to move faster. When people get attacked on them, they either ride away, or get off and fight. Dogs are the only other “pet” creatures we have – but you can’t ride those.

Apparently an almost purely cosmetic feature isn't very useful--no shit eh?

 

[Levski 1912]

down to a university to study up topics (which is ambigous and could mean for a day talking to proffessors)

You can't really learn the geology in a day though...maybe you read a couple of books. Wouldn't it make more sense for Bethesda to just hire a geology professor to help them do soil erosion realistically?

 

[OverrideB1]

It's not that much harder to do one than the other. To do either requires some base amount of knowledge of the process and some functions that do a decent job of modelling. 50% is what you'd get if the devs spent a week (or longer, really) researching it themselves instead of enrolling in a class for a week.

True, but one option is way cheaper than the other and frees up resources to add melee-staves or the Nine Divines (or anything that's been removed) to the game instead of wasting those resources on something that 99% of the target audience isn't even going to notice.

And, before you leap to the defence of the target audience, keep in mind that not a one of them seems to have noticed that there are precious few RPG elements in what purports to be a major RPG game in a long-running series.

Also, the hell-raising about the compass may be one reason why few game companies bother developing games to fit your specific tastes. It's simply far too risky because the target audience is far too picky.

There are a number of games being developed that meet my exacting requirements. I can point you to one on this specific forum (Mount & Blade) and one right here on this very board (Age of Decadence). These are being developed by people who don't go for the safe option every time.

As for my taste being too picky I don't feel that it is unreasonable to expect a few RPG features like branching quests, meaningful dialogue, or pertinant choices that have real in-game consequences, to actually make it into a RPG game. The compass is not a major sticking point here - even though it is symptomatic of what has gone, and is going, wrong with the RPG genre - it is the puffing of inconsequential features and the wholesale removal of everything that has made the genre any fun that is the problem

 

[Thrawn05]

And, before you leap to the defence of the target audience, keep in mind that not a one of them seems to have noticed that there are precious few RPG elements in what purports to be a major RPG game in a long-running series.

True. If Bethesda just went and said "Oblivion is an Action Adventure game with some RPG elements thrown in", a lot of people would be far less hostile to it, since that is what Oblivion clearly is. Certain expectations need to be met whenever a game is labeled an RPG or RTS or FPS or whatever.

 

[Lumpy]

I would say Oblivion is preety damn RPG-ish. Sure, it might not be similar to classic RPGs like Fallout and Planescape: Torment, but it allows you to role play. That should make it an RPG.

 

[Voltare]

you play a role in half-life.....does that make it a rpg?

 

[Lumpy]

you play a role in half-life.....does that make it a rpg?

OK, I read that quickly. What role do you play in half-life? Besides the one written by the developers?

 

[Stella Brando]

Redding is teh hard?

 

[Thrawn05]

I would say Oblivion is preety damn RPG-ish. Sure, it might not be similar to classic RPGs like Fallout and Planescape: Torment, but it allows you to role play. That should make it an RPG.

RPG-ish? Is that a sign that you are beginning to realize that Oblivion is NOT a RPG?

Jedi Knight is RPG-ish since you can "role-play" as a light or dark Jedi.
Deer Hunter 2k5 is RPG-ish since you have stats that determine how well you can stealth and shoot and such.
Civ 4 is RPG-ish since combat units gain experience points and can gain "perks".
The Sims can be considered RPG-ish then since has stats that determine how a sim can act.

I'm bored, I'll stop there. The Moral, just because a game has "elements" of an RPG, it does not mean it IS an RPG.

 

[Imbecile]

Nah. You can get stats, perks and can choose from a variety of characters – plus you can play in your own way (whether it makes the blindest bit of difference is a different matter). It has most of the elements that make an RPG an RPG.

As tempted as I am to sound all hardcore by claiming its not an RPG by conventional standards I'm not going to. It has dungeons, ergo it is an RPG. Also, I used the word “ergo”, so obviously I am very clever, and therefore right.

Flawless logic.

 

[kris]

The game elements and limitations makes roleplaying almost the equivavlent of using a blank papaer and pen. Of course I would get worse graphics,. but better NPCs that way.

Less gameplay constraints/choices = less roleplaying

 

[Thrawn05]

Nah. You can get stats, perks and can choose from a variety of characters – plus you can play in your own way (whether it makes the blindest bit of difference is a different matter). It has most of the elements that make an RPG an RPG.

As tempted as I am to sound all hardcore by claiming its not an RPG by conventional standards I'm not going to. It has dungeons, ergo it is an RPG. Also, I used the word “ergo”, so obviously I am very clever, and therefore right.

Flawless logic.

FPS games are dungeon crawls. Are they RPGs? Oblivion lacks most of what makes an RPG and RPG (exempli gratia: No to-hit roll, No non-linear quest lines (how you do it is the only difference), lacks of skills that truely define a class, etc...).

RES TUAS TIBI HABETO!!! (You see, I used latin because of I'm very clever too, and therefore right).

 

[galsiah]

...and can choose from a variety of characters...

Ah yes, the variety of characters:
Fighter-Thief-Mage
Fighter-Mage-Thief
Thief-Mage-Fighter
Thief-Fighter-Mage
Mage-Fighter-Thief
Mage-Thief-Fighter

Such variety, such individuality.

 

[kingcomrade]

Redding is teh hard?

You thought I'd let you get away with this. Hold out your wrists, I'm going to tie you. If you're looking for a tender night of stroking and caressing, that's not what you're going to get.

 

[OverrideB1]

Nah. You can get stats, perks and can choose from a variety of characters – plus you can play in your own way (whether it makes the blindest bit of difference is a different matter). It has most of the elements that make an RPG an RPG.

As tempted as I am to sound all hardcore by claiming its not an RPG by conventional standards I'm not going to. It has dungeons, ergo it is an RPG. Also, I used the word “ergo”, so obviously I am very clever, and therefore right.)

But, by only possessing some of the elements that make a RPG, does that actually qualify it as a RPG? Just how many RPG-ish elements do there need to be before a game qualifies as a RPG? Conversely, how few does it have to have before it stops qualifying?

I would suggest that the function of being a RPG is not - as your statement suggests - an analogue state but is, rather, a digital state. In other words, it either is or isn't a RPG rather than being somewhere along a sliding scale of RPG-ishness.

As for your second statement - that it has dungeons, it must be a RPG (quod erat demonstrandum) - that is risible. DOOM has dungeons - nothing but dungeons in fact - despite their SF setting. Does that make it a RPG?

(I also used Latin, and avoided the grammatical error of assigning a starting-vowel to the acronym "RPG", thus demonstrating that I must be correct since I am so much smarter )